Does a perfect MA system exist?

Kung Fu Wang

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In another thread, someoe claims that his MA system is perfect. Is there a perfect MA system? If a style is famous in power, it usually is weak in speed, and the other way around.

Let me use CMA as example.

In CMA. the styles that are famous in power are:

- Chen Taiji
- Baji
- XingYi Liuhe

The styles that are famous in speed are:

- praying mantis
- Zimen
- WC

The reason is simple. If you

- use 1 second to compress before you release, you can generate the maximum power, but your opponent may be long gone.
- throw 4 punches within 1 second, you may generate the maximum speed, but your punch may not have the maximum power.

In other words, there exist no perfect MA system. It's just a trade off between power and speed.

What's your opinion on this?

Baji:


Praying mantis:

 

Xue Sheng

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In other words, there exist no perfect MA system. It's just a trade off between power and speed.

What's your opinion on this?
Agreed.

Perfect is subjective in this context since no two humans are exactly alike nor is any one human going to be the exact same at 20 as they are at 70.

What may be "Perfect" to one may be not good at all for another. What was great for one at 20 years old, might not be so good when they're 70.
 

Flying Crane

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Perfect is a notion that cannot be defined.

Find a method that you relate to and find interesting enough to keep practicing over and over and over. Than do just that. And dont worry about the rest of it.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang

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Perfect is subjective in this context
Please notice that my favor primary long fist system is not in both of those lists. This is why most of the long fist people will start to cross train other systems after they have built up their foundation throught long fist.

If long fist is using the riffle strategy, the praying mantis is using the machine gun strategy, and the Baji is using the grenade strategy.

Most of the non CMA systems may fall into the riffle strategy (not extreme in both power and speed).
 

KenpoMaster805

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there is no perfect Martial arts system because its up to you to make it perfect if your the teacher head instructor you have to to know what your doing to be perfect
 

Holmejr

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Maybe nothing is perfect, but taken as a whole, the FMA is about as close as it gets. If you have any doubts, just ask me. Lol.
 

drop bear

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In another thread, someoe claims that his MA system is perfect. Is there a perfect MA system? If a style is famous in power, it usually is weak in speed, and the other way around.

Let me use CMA as example.

In CMA. the styles that are famous in power are:

- Chen Taiji
- Baji
- XingYi Liuhe

The styles that are famous in speed are:

- praying mantis
- Zimen
- WC

The reason is simple. If you

- use 1 second to compress before you release, you can generate the maximum power, but your opponent may be long gone.
- throw 4 punches within 1 second, you may generate the maximum speed, but your punch may not have the maximum power.

In other words, there exist no perfect MA system. It's just a trade off between power and speed.

What's your opinion on this?

Baji:


Praying mantis:


Why would you need two styles to achieve that. Punch hard some times. Punch fast some times.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang

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Why would you need two styles to achieve that. Punch hard some times. Punch fast some times.
The basic training methods are different. You may train 1 step 1 punch, but you may not train 1 step 3 punches (or the other way around).

A praying mantis guy cross trained the Baji system. He said, "My Baji teacher just opened my eyes." His statement had upset his PM teacher big time as if his PM teacher had covered his eyes all these years. Later on he called his own system "Baji praying mantis".
 
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skribs

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Not even gun fu is perfect. I remember reading an article of a woman who shot a home invader 5 times in the face, and he ran away.

I mean, technically it protected her, so it was successful, but "he ran away" is not the level of effectiveness one would assume from such situation.
 

MetalBoar

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Not even gun fu is perfect. I remember reading an article of a woman who shot a home invader 5 times in the face, and he ran away.

I mean, technically it protected her, so it was successful, but "he ran away" is not the level of effectiveness one would assume from such situation.
Yeah, this seems to happen sometimes and I'm sure there are a lot of factors, like what caliber and type of ammunition, where exactly the bullets land, etc.

When I was shopping for my first handgun, something like 30 years ago now, I had done a bunch of reading about stopping power and police statistics and had decided after looking at all the factors including cost to shoot regularly, I was going to go with a 9mm. I went to a local gun shop to kind of start figuring out which model I liked the best and got to talking with this huge, biker looking dude behind the counter. He said to me, "You don't want a 9mm. They won't stop anything." I started to respond by saying that the statistics looked like with high velocity hollow points the cartridge performed pretty well. He cut me off and said, "Nah, man, they won't stop *&^#! I had a guy shoot me 7 times with a 9mm and I didn't even know I'd been hit until after I broke his neck." Then he raised up his shirt to show me his torso covered in bullet scars.

I still think a 9mm high velocity hollow point is something you don't want to get shot with, but I also didn't feel like there was any benefit to arguing with a nearly 7 foot tall dude who breaks peoples' necks when they shoot him 7 times!
 

windwalker099

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The basic training methods are different. You may train 1 step 1 punch, but you may not train 1 step 3 punches (or the other way around).

Think there is a difference between method of practice, and those that practice the method.
Not all will or can achieve, the results of the method...

Also depends on level....of practice...
Most CMA styles having common practices in the beginning can look very similar, although done for different reasons...

Most evident with those practicing something like taiji....the family styles and styles having come from them are all quite different, depending on level and depth of training...

Regarding mantis, something I've trained in long ago...many different styles common to one root.

8 steps, 7 star, plum blossom mantis each very distinct
 
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Tony Dismukes

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In other words, there exist no perfect MA system. It's just a trade off between power and speed.

Why would you need two styles to achieve that. Punch hard some times. Punch fast some times.

The basic training methods are different. You may train 1 step 1 punch, but you may not train 1 step 3 punches (or the other way around).

A praying mantis guy cross trained the Baji system. He said, "My Baji teacher just opened my eyes." His statement had upset his PM teacher big time as if his PM teacher had covered his eyes all these years. Later on he called his own system "Baji praying mantis".
Boxers have methods for punching quickly and methods for punching with maximum power, so it's not necessarily a matter of this one factor limiting a martial art.

However the underlying issue goes much deeper, whether you look at it from the perspective of a single martial art, a single technique, a single moment in a fight, an individual's training regimen, or an individual instructor's approach to teaching.

You can optimize body mechanics for maximum speed, you can optimize for maximum power, or you can find a middle ground.

You can optimize your stance for throwing/defending strikes or for attempting/defending takedowns.

You can optimize your stance for defending certain types of strikes or for defending certain other types of strikes.

You can optimize for stability or mobility.

You can train a few techniques in depth or a larger number of techniques in less depth.

You can focus on training that develops your athleticism or on refining your technique to require as little athleticism as possible.

You can spend your time on safe training methods which avoid chance of injury and build lifelong health or you can engage in training methods which more closely approach the realities of a fight, thus building more actual fighting ability at the risk of permanent injuries and decreased quality of life.

You can spend time building generally applicable skills and attributes or you can spend time focusing on the specialized requirements of specific scenarios.

You can run workouts aimed at the needs of professional fighters or of casual hobbyists.

And so on, and so on, and so on. Just like engineering, it's a constant series of trade-offs.

You can do a bit of everything if you want, but you're limited by time and the ability to recover.

There are some high-level MMA fighters right now who have the ability to switch seamlessly between striking for speed, striking for power, fighting long range, fighting short range, using different stances and power generation methods, attacking takedowns, defending takedowns, evasive footwork, aggressive footwork, cautious tactics, high-risk high-reward tactics, attacking submissions, defending submissions, conserving energy, using extreme athleticism, using simple tactics, using sophisticated tactics, all at a very high level.

These are typically athletically talented individuals who started training at a young age and are training full-time. Many of them may also have pharmaceutical aids to help their bodies recover from the rigors of training. And even these individuals will have limitations in their abilities. They won't box as well as the best boxers. They won't wrestle as well as the best wrestlers. They might not know anything about fighting with weapons and if they do, they won't be as skilled as the best weapon fighters. They may not know the most appropriate tactics for certain specific real world scenarios.

So - what happens when you are teaching a class of hobbyists who show up to class for 3-4 hours per week and might train at home for an hour or two per week if you're lucky? What do you teach them first? What do you teach them next? How much do you teach them at a time? How much time do you spend ingraining a given rule into their movement patterns before you start showing them all the ways that it may be advantageous to break that "rule" under certain circumstances. Which training methods do you focus on in the limited time you have to work with the students?

Your answers to all of these questions: the trade-offs that you make, the priorities you set, help determine the "system" that you teach. If we all had unlimited time, energy, and motivation, perfect health, the ability to regenerate from any injury, and a holodeck to use for training every imaginable scenario, then there would be no martial arts styles other than our own personal fighting styles shaped by our individual preferences and inclinations.
 

Gyakuto

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Yes it does exist. But to learn it, you will have to join my dojo, sign a binding contract of 30 years duration, buy all your equipment from me (multicoloured keikogi covered in patches with things like raging tigers, swooping eagles, rampant snakes and stingy scorpions on them are de riguer). You must not delve into the lineage of the art via the Interweb, (all you need to know is Ive taken the best bits of every art from white bearded masters and combined them more efficiently than that Master Ken bloke) oh and refer to me as Super ber Grand Master at all times, enunciating each word clearly.

I also have magic beans for sale.
 

skribs

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Boxers have methods for punching quickly and methods for punching with maximum power, so it's not necessarily a matter of this one factor limiting a martial art.

However the underlying issue goes much deeper, whether you look at it from the perspective of a single martial art, a single technique, a single moment in a fight, an individual's training regimen, or an individual instructor's approach to teaching.

You can optimize body mechanics for maximum speed, you can optimize for maximum power, or you can find a middle ground.

You can optimize your stance for throwing/defending strikes or for attempting/defending takedowns.

You can optimize your stance for defending certain types of strikes or for defending certain other types of strikes.

You can optimize for stability or mobility.

You can train a few techniques in depth or a larger number of techniques in less depth.

You can focus on training that develops your athleticism or on refining your technique to require as little athleticism as possible.

You can spend your time on safe training methods which avoid chance of injury and build lifelong health or you can engage in training methods which more closely approach the realities of a fight, thus building more actual fighting ability at the risk of permanent injuries and decreased quality of life.

You can spend time building generally applicable skills and attributes or you can spend time focusing on the specialized requirements of specific scenarios.

You can run workouts aimed at the needs of professional fighters or of casual hobbyists.

And so on, and so on, and so on. Just like engineering, it's a constant series of trade-offs.

You can do a bit of everything if you want, but you're limited by time and the ability to recover.

There are some high-level MMA fighters right now who have the ability to switch seamlessly between striking for speed, striking for power, fighting long range, fighting short range, using different stances and power generation methods, attacking takedowns, defending takedowns, evasive footwork, aggressive footwork, cautious tactics, high-risk high-reward tactics, attacking submissions, defending submissions, conserving energy, using extreme athleticism, using simple tactics, using sophisticated tactics, all at a very high level.

These are typically athletically talented individuals who started training at a young age and are training full-time. Many of them may also have pharmaceutical aids to help their bodies recover from the rigors of training. And even these individuals will have limitations in their abilities. They won't box as well as the best boxers. They won't wrestle as well as the best wrestlers. They might not know anything about fighting with weapons and if they do, they won't be as skilled as the best weapon fighters. They may not know the most appropriate tactics for certain specific real world scenarios.

So - what happens when you are teaching a class of hobbyists who show up to class for 3-4 hours per week and might train at home for an hour or two per week if you're lucky? What do you teach them first? What do you teach them next? How much do you teach them at a time? How much time do you spend ingraining a given rule into their movement patterns before you start showing them all the ways that it may be advantageous to break that "rule" under certain circumstances. Which training methods do you focus on in the limited time you have to work with the students?

Your answers to all of these questions: the trade-offs that you make, the priorities you set, help determine the "system" that you teach. If we all had unlimited time, energy, and motivation, perfect health, the ability to regenerate from any injury, and a holodeck to use for training every imaginable scenario, then there would be no martial arts styles other than our own personal fighting styles shaped by our individual preferences and inclinations.
I think this also leads to a lot of art bashing. People have a very brief snippet of a martial art and assume that's all it has to offer, or the only way they do things.

For example, when I first started TKD, I bashed MMA fighters because their roundhouse kicks looked absolutely horrible (to me). They don't even chamber, and they can't even kick very high! Everyone in my beginner class can do better than that! Well, cut to some time later, and I've learned what a proper leg kick is, and that their form was very much correct and the target was very well intended.

Similarly, I've noticed that despite what I hear a lot of the contrary, Muay Thai fighters do tend to deliver their roundhouse kicks very similar to a TKD style of kick for quick body shots and for headshots. But I've had people (on other sites) cuss me out, call me a liar and all sorts of names for daring to say that there's any similarity between a Thai kick and a Tae kick.

Heck, I've even been told by some BJJ guys exactly how I train in my Hapkido school, because the dude took one Aikido class.

People tend not to look at the tradeoffs, or even the different ways an art does something. Because TKD favors speed over power, people assume we never learn how to deliver our kicks with power. And then they bash us for it.
 
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