Documenting forms

[Gerry Seymour]

my occupation involves programing machines to move with up to 5 axis in 3 dimensional space. so as an idea you could use a cartesian coordinate system.
X axis is east -west
Y axis is north -south
Z axis is up and down
C axis is rotating around like the clock
+is clockwise
_ is counter clock wise

the basic idea is to use a grid with points on it and your movements connect the dots.

now to get more indepth,, you are looking to to match attacks with the defense moves in the form. you could use what is called in macro B programing as using "variables" these are a numbered system you could use for branching. so your description can use numbers..

start point X0. Y0. C0. ready position;
# 100 - right step into Right hanmi dachi ;
right yokomen uchi ;
grab the wrist with both hands;
#500;
C -180.


attack/ sub text key
*****************
#100 = left munetsuki, with left step;

technique/ sub text key
************************
#500 = shiho nage



not sure if this helps but it is a good way to standardize movement. there is a lot more to it and i can explain more ideas if you like.

I couldn't help laughing, Hoshin. I have a bit of programming background, and I sometimes catch myself sort of "thinking in code"

DIM varAttack as variant
DIM varTechnique as variant
DIM perAttacker as person

If attacker gives varAttack then_
Do While perAttacker.position = "Standing"
Apply varTechnique (perAttacker)
Evaluate perAttacker.position
Loop
End If

Anyway, I like the ideas you're presenting. I'm not putting that much detail in, as I expect the students to know the applications that are contained in the kata (the usage is a bit backwards from how some styles use kata), so I'm just giving them the starting position (stance and direction), the incoming attack (general attack, hand/foot, and direction of approach), and the response (general technique and finishing stance/direction). It's turning out to be simpler that way, and seems to work well for the students. If I decide to build a manual for teaching the kata, I'll need to break out more of what you're describing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hey, I'm wondering if any of you who use long forms (more than a couple of steps) have figured out a good way to document them. What I've been doing is good for technical reference for me, but isn't really useful to someone trying to follow along. Even I am not successful at using it as a reference when I'm working on developing a new kata.

My issue is how to keep direction (relative to the start of the technique) transitions beetween portions, etc. all clear, without the descriptions being so long nobody can use them easily.

Take a piece of paper and draw the directions on paper which way the student needs to travel. if the student travels on the same path multiple times then add an arrow with a number of which arrow/direction is done first. Continue with the lines and arrows showing direction the student should travel in the form. This method can be either written down as a complete drawing (it gets messy) or it can be separated in to segments. For example. The first segment in my form makes a the letter "T". Starting at the top of the "T" The student travels forward then backwards on the same path. Then the student punches while facing forward, punches to the right, then punches to the left and then faces forward again. When I end the form, I should be facing in the same direction that I was facing when I began. The second segment of my form creates an lower case L. The student travels along this path 3 times. First forward, then turn and move forward, then turn, move forward. To simplify it I can say that my first and second segments travel along the "T". We actually have an advanced form that spells "10000 fists" in Chinese (not sure Mandarin or Cantonese). We also have another form that spells "country ...something." The other instructor at my school uses N/S/E/W I personally don't like it because as the forms become more advanced then so does the direction. I like to keep it simple, Forward, Backwards, Left, Right, 45 degrees, 90 degrees. This way I can think of my attackers as being in the front, back, left, right, or at an angle. when you are actually fighting you aren't going to think of your opponents as being at 12 o'clock, or North. They are either on in the front, back, left , right, or at an angle.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Take a piece of paper and draw the directions on paper which way the student needs to travel. if the student travels on the same path multiple times then add an arrow with a number of which arrow/direction is done first. Continue with the lines and arrows showing direction the student should travel in the form. This method can be either written down as a complete drawing (it gets messy) or it can be separated in to segments. For example. The first segment in my form makes a the letter "T". Starting at the top of the "T" The student travels forward then backwards on the same path. Then the student punches while facing forward, punches to the right, then punches to the left and then faces forward again. When I end the form, I should be facing in the same direction that I was facing when I began. The second segment of my form creates an lower case L. The student travels along this path 3 times. First forward, then turn and move forward, then turn, move forward. To simplify it I can say that my first and second segments travel along the "T". We actually have an advanced form that spells "10000 fists" in Chinese (not sure Mandarin or Cantonese). We also have another form that spells "country ...something." The other instructor at my school uses N/S/E/W I personally don't like it because as the forms become more advanced then so does the direction. I like to keep it simple, Forward, Backwards, Left, Right, 45 degrees, 90 degrees. This way I can think of my attackers as being in the front, back, left, right, or at an angle. when you are actually fighting you aren't going to think of your opponents as being at 12 o'clock, or North. They are either on in the front, back, left , right, or at an angle.

That's the idea - give the attacker's location in relative terms (the way we think about them in application). I want to provide checkpoints in fixed references (N/S/E/W), so students can verify they have turned enough, etc. when doing the techniques, because I won't be giving them full directions on each technique (throws, etc.) in the kata.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hey, I'm wondering if any of you who use long forms (more than a couple of steps) have figured out a good way to document them. What I've been doing is good for technical reference for me, but isn't really useful to someone trying to follow along. Even I am not successful at using it as a reference when I'm working on developing a new kata.

My issue is how to keep direction (relative to the start of the technique) transitions beetween portions, etc. all clear, without the descriptions being so long nobody can use them easily.

Without reading the other responses, my first instinct is to tell you to practice that form with a specific principle, concept, or move in mind, take notes, and then repeat, with a different concept.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Without reading the other responses, my first instinct is to tell you to practice that form with a specific principle, concept, or move in mind, take notes, and then repeat, with a different concept.

I've done that. And I kept changing the danged thing each time. I've finally gotten the first two to where they are staying the same, even when I change my approach. Now I just need to document them well for future use (lest I change them every time I have a student to teach them to).

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's the idea - give the attacker's location in relative terms (the way we think about them in application). I want to provide checkpoints in fixed references (N/S/E/W), so students can verify they have turned enough, etc. when doing the techniques, because I won't be giving them full directions on each technique (throws, etc.) in the kata.

As long as you do simple degrees, 90, 360, 45, and 180 then the checkpoints on which way they should be facing are easy. Then you can basically map out where you will be and which direction you will be facing during which part of the form. Don't make it more complicated than it is. Try this. and see if you can follow, trace the steps with a pencil or actually walk through the instructions.

This is the direction of part the beginning form for Jow Ga.
Go forward 2 steps,
go backwards 2 steps,
turn left 90 degrees.,
turn right 90 degrees,
turn right 90 degrees,
turn left 90 degrees,
go forward 3 steps,
go back 1step,
go forward 1 step.
turn 180 to left go forward 3 steps,
turn 180 to left go forward 3 steps.
turn right 90, kick, turn 360 to the left.
(here where it gets tricky because your perspective changes.) Turn 45 degrees to the right (but using your back as the reference for the 45.) in other words, someone is coming up behind you at a 45 degree angle on your right side and you can see that attacker out of the corner of your eye and you turn to address that attacker.
Take 1 Step forward. Turn 90 degrees to your right,
Turn for 45 degrees.
Turn 180 degrees take 2 step forward.
Turn 180 Degrees stake 2 steps forward
Turn 90 degrees to your right.

By the time you get to the last turn you should be facing the same direction that your started in.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You know, what I probably need to do is use more than one method of identifying directions (one relative, one absolute). I haven't been using the o'clocks, so I could use that. Maybe use N/S/E/W for the absolute position, and o'clock for the relative position. That would simplify things considerably.

Let's just hope I don't get some young folks who aren't acquainted with analog clocks (I've been told that's becoming an issue).

I would actually use clocks as the absomute, then something like angles as the relative. Ie: turn 90 degrees into stance x while punching straight with punch y. Now you should be facing 3oclock. Then step 180 degrees with block z, facing 9oclock.
At least for me, that would be the most consistent way to know what to do next, and be able to practice from the middle of the form.

On another note, if you take a video do you mind posting it here? I'm really curious what a kata from a grappling style would look like.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't have that luxury yet. As I create them, if I don't write them down, I'll do them differently each time.

There is nothing wrong to do the form differently each time. There are moves in my form that contain

- side kick, spin hook kick.

Since I can't do spin hook kick as good as I used to, I have changed it into

- side kick, spin back fist, groin kick, hammer fist, arm control face punch.

Hey, I'm wondering if any of you who use long forms (more than a couple of steps) have figured out a good way to document them.

I like to give a nice name for each and every move that I have created. For example,

- Open the sky, separate the earth, double palms strike.
- Double hooks block, heel kick, double punches.
- Grab and punch, kick and punch.
- Wrist control break, palm attack to the throat.
- Downward block kick, upward block punch.
- Side kick, palm strike to the neck.
- ...

My forms always go east and west (a road). Average form will go from east to west, and west to east 4 times (4 roads). A long form will go from east to west, and west to east 6 times (6 roads). Average road will be about 14 moves. The advantage of this kind of design is even for a 6 roads form, I can just do any road, or any 2 roads, or any 3 roads, ... Each road is like a short form by itself.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm really curious what a kata from a grappling style would look like.

Here is an example. My senior SC brother created this:

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As long as you do simple degrees, 90, 360, 45, and 180 then the checkpoints on which way they should be facing are easy. Then you can basically map out where you will be and which direction you will be facing during which part of the form. Don't make it more complicated than it is. Try this. and see if you can follow, trace the steps with a pencil or actually walk through the instructions.

This is the direction of part the beginning form for Jow Ga.
Go forward 2 steps,
go backwards 2 steps,
turn left 90 degrees.,
turn right 90 degrees,
turn right 90 degrees,
turn left 90 degrees,
go forward 3 steps,
go back 1step,
go forward 1 step.
turn 180 to left go forward 3 steps,
turn 180 to left go forward 3 steps.
turn right 90, kick, turn 360 to the left.
(here where it gets tricky because your perspective changes.) Turn 45 degrees to the right (but using your back as the reference for the 45.) in other words, someone is coming up behind you at a 45 degree angle on your right side and you can see that attacker out of the corner of your eye and you turn to address that attacker.
Take 1 Step forward. Turn 90 degrees to your right,
Turn for 45 degrees.
Turn 180 degrees take 2 step forward.
Turn 180 Degrees stake 2 steps forward
Turn 90 degrees to your right.

By the time you get to the last turn you should be facing the same direction that your started in.

There's a difference in the forms, because they are based on applications they already know. So the description for a few steps would be more like, "Atttacker at 30 degrees right with right backhand, Arm Bar, end right hanmi North, heel kick to the head. Attacker at 60 degrees right with right round punch, Mugger's Throw, end kneeling South..."

The lack of exact instructions for each technique (which would require far too much description) makes the "checkpoints" necessary.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is nothing wrong to do the form differently each time. There are moves in my form that contain

- side kick, spin hook kick.

Since I can't do spin hook kick as good as I used to, I have changed it into

- side kick, spin back fist, groin kick, hammer fist, arm control face punch.


I like to give a nice name for each and every move that I have created. For example,

- Open the sky, separate the earth, double palms strike.
- Double hooks block, heel kick, double punches.
- Grab and punch, kick and punch.
- Wrist control break, palm attack to the throat.
- Downward block kick, upward block punch.
- Side kick, palm strike to the neck.
- ...

My forms always go east and west (a road). Average form will go from east to west, and west to east 4 times (4 roads). A long form will go from east to west, and west to east 6 times (6 roads). Average road will be about 14 moves. The advantage of this kind of design is even for a 6 roads form, I can just do any road, or any 2 roads, or any 3 roads, ... Each road is like a short form by itself.

Doing it differently each time is a problem when teaching.

Somewhere down the road, I may revisit these to try to make them more compact. Currently, they each take up almost the entire mat-width in my primary space (12 feet), so I can't have folks doing these while others do something else, or even have two people do them side-by-side. But that's something for much later.

 

[JowGaWolf]

end right hanmi North, heel kick to the head. Attacker at 60 degrees right with right round punch, Mugger's Throw, end kneeling South

when you do these techniques, do you end up in different positions? For example, attacker at 60 degrees right with right round punch, Mugger's Throw. If you do the technique correctly then will the person end up in any other direction other than kneeling south?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

when you do these techniques, do you end up in different positions? For example, attacker at 60 degrees right with right round punch, Mugger's Throw. If you do the technique correctly then will the person end up in any other direction other than kneeling south?

They could. For the advanced practitioner, it's a matter of how we choose to execute the technique. For beginners, it's more a matter of turning far enough to make the technique work properly. It's a bit of a vague definition (outside forms), because different situations present different applications. To give you an idea, with Mugger's Throw (related to Judo's seio nage), I can do it with no turn at all in some cases once I'm under the attacker's center, or I can do it with a pivot of up to about 90 degrees (give or take 45 degrees). That's a pretty wide range, so I have to specify in the form in order to force them into movements that bring out the principles I want them to focus on.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

with Mugger's Throw (related to Judo's seio nage), I can do it with no turn at all in some cases once I'm under the attacker's center, ...

In mirror stance when you have right leg forward and your opponent has left leg forward, you don't need that turn. This is why the mirror stance can make all throws much easier.

For

- face to face throw. you don't need that forward step.
- Back to chest throw. you don't need that turn.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In mirror stance when you have right leg forward and your opponent has left leg forward, you don't need that turn. This is why the mirror stance can make all throws much easier.

For

- face to face throw. you don't need that forward step.
- Back to chest throw. you don't need that turn.

I'm not sure what you're telling me here with the "mirror stance". And I'm not at all sure how you can tell me what turns are and are not necessary in NGA techniques.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not sure what you're telling me here with the "mirror stance". And I'm not at all sure how you can tell me what turns are and are not necessary in NGA techniques.

Here is an example that a "hip throw" does not requare a "turn".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is an example that a "hip throw" does not requare a "turn".

That's not the same technique, though. Mugger's Throw is actually not a hip throw.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's not the same technique, though. Mugger's Throw is actually not a hip throw.

Both belong to the same category of "body contact throw" that your back touch on your opponent's chest.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Both belong to the same category of "body contact throw" that your back touch on your opponent's chest.

Except that one includes the dynamic of being able to lever the opponent over you (both our Shoulder Throw and our Hip Throw do this, as well as a couple of others). Mugger's Throw requires the defender get out of the way, so as not to support the attacker or have them fall on you. For basic application, this can be done with out a turn, but adds a significant risk (I've seen students break a foot by dropping an uke on it). So the technique includes a turn to protect against this. It's a risk that doesn't exist in hip throws.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Mugger's Throw requires the defender get out of the way, so as not to support the attacker or have them fall on you.

Is the "mugger's throw" the same as the "shoulder throw" that your back touch on your opponent's chest? Do you have any clip to show the "mugger's throw"?