Do you claim any religious faith? / How are you on sharing?

[Jenna]

On the basis of what I sense, I would just like to have confirmed for the record; a metaphorical show of hands is all, who is prepared to stand up and say: if you do not believe what I believe then I feel that your beliefs are wrong?

Is this how every faith persuades us to think about every other faith (or those of no faith)?

Is this how atheism looks upon every faith in something intrinsically unknown?

If you do not believe what I believe (be that the core of my faith or my trust in scientifically- and logically- based atheism) then I feel that you are wrong. Is anyone prepared to say this?

Thank you.

 

[Ken Morgan]

wrote this last night, but then someone had to upgrade MT.......

As this discussion is progressing in a very mature manner, I’d like to keep that if at all possible.

That being said, I really can’t believe that an omnipotent god/goddess, an entity that created billions of galaxies, and possibly multiple universes, gives a **** or even pays attention to a single self-aware hairless ape, inhabiting a single unremarkable planet amongst trillions, and so requires/demands obedience, belief and worship of his/her’s own existence. To not worship, believe or behave exactly as he/she demands, (assuming we can even know that), will consequently and subsequently when we die, cast us into the fires of an eternal hell. Talk about a Narcissistic entity.

To me, live your life the best you can, treat people well and with respect, try not to hurt anyone, and try to give back to the world. If there is a god/goddess he/she will see this, if there isn’t a god/goddess your friends and family will see it. Either way, it’s a win.

 

[john2054]

Hi Jenna, I think that one of the things about faith is trust. Trust in the unknown and trust in God. Also trust in other people. We have to be careful in forums like this when we come out with such proud statements as I believe in my god thus your god is wrong, not just because it can offend others but also because the presumed superiority taken by that statement can actually put us far out of sinc, not just with others but with everyone. It is all very well believing in God in a vacuum, your own little world like. But without others we have nothing. I think that Tez understands this, and it even has some bearing on the uberficial world of the martial arts. If only the mcdojos (of which there are many), would stop milking their fees and start teaching for free. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why I have chosen to dedicate this period of my life, not just to keep on getting better and taking my meds, but also to learning, university, and my African wife. I am infact a great believer that family and religion should and do go hand in hand. The lord's prayer which I recited for you back there was a special moment which we say in church every Sunday to remind ourselves of our place before God, and never to forget this. Tez you think that it's Jewish right? Well maybe it is, what's more as I have already tried to make quite clear I don't have a problem with Judaism. I do think that some of the foreign policy directions Israel has been making seem a bit dubious to say the least, but that's extrapolating the personal (micro), to the national (macro), which is a danger and risk of losing touch on reality in this process, like what I was talking about before.

But Jenna, you see, for many years I was an atheist. So I know what it feels like to not believe in God. And despite the amount of rational logic you can find in this position, I fear that it is a hollow position. Much better is to find God, or more effectively is if he finds you. But he won't find you if you don't look for him. Fate, Love, Charity, these are epic words not lightly spoken. Hold onto what you have, and do gardening as a good first step to finding him IMHO!

 

[oftheherd1]

They can maintain what they want. Jesus was not the Messiah. He did not meet the first xriteria, being of the line of David.

Well, Christians believe he did. We base that on the gospels of Matthew and Luke, which give the lineage of Christ. You may not believe in the writings of the New Testament, but we do, and those two gospels say so. I am unaware of anything in the Old Testament which says Jesus Christ wasn't of the lineage of David.

It's simple. The Messiah has not come yet. Belief in Jesus is against what Judaism teaches. Therefore, you can't believe Jesus is the messiah and still practice Judaism. People can believe what they want, non-Jews do not define Judaism, we do. You call call a cat a dog, but it's still a cat

I understand what you are saying, but can't agree. In fact you yourself have stated that being a Jew isn't just the religion. Again, there were Jews in Jesus' time who accepted him as the Messiah, but still followed all Jewish law and teachings, except for their belief that Jesus was the Messiah. I could understand you saying they may have erred in their Jewish religious practice, but to say the were not Jews doesn't sound right. Perhaps I have just not understood what you mean?

The Messiah will be of the line of David. When he comes, he will be able to prove it by his actions.

As I said sir, we believe, based on the New Testament, that Jesus was of the line of David. And of course, we as Christians would say that Jesus has already proved His Messiahship by His actions. But I wonder if you could provide some examples of what actions would prove lineage?

Get a copy of either the JPS or Artscroll translations of Tanach. Preferably with commentaries. You will get a good idea of what we are about. It's hard to explain, our religion, laws and history are intertwined. You can teach your children the history of your ethnicity or nationality without touching on religion. I can't teach my kids Jewish history without touching on things like the Exodus.

You have mentioned those before. I will try to get a copy of those as they sound interesting. Being as Christians believe Jesus was Jewish, and being we believe in the Old Testament, I am sure I would find interesting reading. But you are again saying being a Jew ethnically and religiously are intertwined. I can accept that. But I would not agree that Jews who accept Jesus as the Messiah cease to be Jews. I would think they have simply progressed in the religious belief. And again, I can understand you not being willing to accept that, and I am not trying to get you to do so. Just pointing out differences, and asking your understanding and comments on those differences. I really appreciate you taking time to do so. Thanks again for that.

As a side note, can you reply with multi quotes like everyone else? it makes hard to properly reply to you.

I hope this turns out to have done just that. I did it by putting in HTML quotes and end-quotes. Is there an easier way?

 

[oftheherd1]

wrote this last night, but then someone had to upgrade MT.......

As this discussion is progressing in a very mature manner, I’d like to keep that if at all possible.

That being said, I really can’t believe that an omnipotent god/goddess, an entity that created billions of galaxies, and possibly multiple universes, gives a **** or even pays attention to a single self-aware hairless ape, inhabiting a single unremarkable planet amongst trillions, and so requires/demands obedience, belief and worship of his/her’s own existence. To not worship, believe or behave exactly as he/she demands, (assuming we can even know that), will consequently and subsequently when we die, cast us into the fires of an eternal hell. Talk about a Narcissistic entity.

To me, live your life the best you can, treat people well and with respect, try not to hurt anyone, and try to give back to the world. If there is a god/goddess he/she will see this, if there isn’t a god/goddess your friends and family will see it. Either way, it’s a win.

A lot of people express dismay at having to follow what the Bible says are God's rules. I don't pretend to understand or speak for God, but my understanding is this: As a Holy God, He cannot allow sin in heaven. We all have adamic sin. It can only be removed by the blood of Christ. Through acceptance of God's gift of eternal life through His grace, we are able to ask for forgiveness of sin any time we have commited sin.

When we become saved, all our previous sin is washed away. Sin after that can be forgiven any time was sincerely ask it. When we get to heaven, Jesus, who sits at the right hand of God, will intervene for us, having purchased our salvation with His blood, and we will still be able to enter heaven.

I know there are differences of opinion amongst the members of the forum. Any who disagree have that right. I won't yell at you or tell you that you are in error in a mean nor superior way. I will just tell you what I believe and you still get to keep your beliefs if that is what you want.

 

[CanuckMA]

Well, Christians believe he did. We base that on the gospels of Matthew and Luke, which give the lineage of Christ. You may not believe in the writings of the New Testament, but we do, and those two gospels say so. I am unaware of anything in the Old Testament which says Jesus Christ wasn't of the lineage of David.

Because Tanach does not mention Jesus. And Xtianity sort of painted themselves in a corner regarding the lineage. Lineage is patrilineal. So you'd have to prove that Joseph was a descendant of David. But then again, Joseph is not Jesus' father, is he?

I understand what you are saying, but can't agree. In fact you yourself have stated that being a Jew isn't just the religion. Again, there were Jews in Jesus' time who accepted him as the Messiah, but still followed all Jewish law and teachings, except for their belief that Jesus was the Messiah. I could understand you saying they may have erred in their Jewish religious practice, but to say the were not Jews doesn't sound right. Perhaps I have just not understood what you mean?

It's complicated. You are a Jew if born of a Jewish mother or converted. Converson is a religious act. Once a Jew, you remain a Jew even if you don't practice Judaism, unless your religious beliefs are antithetical to Judaism. Xtianity is. So from a Jewish perspective, believing Jesus is the Messiah makes you a Xtian.

As I said sir, we believe, based on the New Testament, that Jesus was of the line of David. And of course, we as Christians would say that Jesus has already proved His Messiahship by His actions. But I wonder if you could provide some examples of what actions would prove lineage?

Traditional and current Orthodox thought have mainly held that the Messiah will be the anointed one (messiah), descended from his father through the Davidic line of King David via Solomon (See Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan), who will gather the Jews back into the Land of Israel, usher in an era of peace, build the Third Temple, have a male heir and re-institute the Sanhedrin, among other things.[SUP][[/SUP]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_messianism

Jesus did not do any of that. And the Messiah will be a man. G-d is a single entity that does not have a corporal form.

You have mentioned those before. I will try to get a copy of those as they sound interesting. Being as Christians believe Jesus was Jewish, and being we believe in the Old Testament, I am sure I would find interesting reading. But you are again saying being a Jew ethnically and religiously are intertwined. I can accept that. But I would not agree that Jews who accept Jesus as the Messiah cease to be Jews. I would think they have simply progressed in the religious belief. And again, I can understand you not being willing to accept that, and I am not trying to get you to do so. Just pointing out differences, and asking your understanding and comments on those differences. I really appreciate you taking time to do so. Thanks again for that.

Can you not understand how offensive the highlighted part is to us? We have dealt with that for 2.000 years. It's patronizing. It's like patting a child on the head and saying 'that's nice, but onee day you'll grow up".

And you may believe what you want about Jews accepting Jesus, but you don't get to define Judaism, WE do.

I hope this turns out to have done just that. I did it by putting in HTML quotes and end-quotes. Is there an easier way?

That was good. Thanks.

 

[oaktree]

Hi Jenna

If you have a religious faith, would you take an opportunity to state your faith because I am openly interested in hearing?

I was raised Buddhist and I do my best to follow the teachings.

If so, are you also happy to tell me about your faith and what good things it is that your faith brings to your life

I am not sure what it is you want to know about. Plenty of basics can be found online, monstery codes and rules are stricter and demanding.
If someone asks us to give Dharma we are happy to do so however we never go around preaching Dharma to others who are not interested.
Buddhism for me brings peace, understanding it is a thinking religion and one in which the Buddha himself said to test his view to see if it is true(to you)

If there is anything you would you like me to discuss further let me know.

 

[Empty Hands]

On the basis of what I sense, I would just like to have confirmed for the record; a metaphorical show of hands is all, who is prepared to stand up and say: if you do not believe what I believe then I feel that your beliefs are wrong?

I would be willing to say that for every religious system I have experience with. All of them that I have studied posit truths about the world which we know are not true or which are highly unlikely to be true.

I would be less willing to say that about faith itself or the existence of the divine. There still is no reason to believe that the divine exists, but the case is not as clear as it is for organized religions. I guess the religions just had the bad luck to write everything down into a coherent form before we knew how the world worked.

 

[Carol]

I hope this turns out to have done just that. I did it by putting in HTML quotes and end-quotes. Is there an easier way?

There is an easier way

Highlight the text you want to encapsulate in quotes, then click the quote button on the toolbar. It will add the quotes/endquotes for you. It will not insert the person's specific username (not the best solution when responding to multiple people) but it will still tag the quotes out

 

[Steve]

On the basis of what I sense, I would just like to have confirmed for the record; a metaphorical show of hands is all, who is prepared to stand up and say: if you do not believe what I believe then I feel that your beliefs are wrong?

Is this how every faith persuades us to think about every other faith (or those of no faith)?

Is this how atheism looks upon every faith in something intrinsically unknown?

If you do not believe what I believe (be that the core of my faith or my trust in scientifically- and logically- based atheism) then I feel that you are wrong. Is anyone prepared to say this?

Thank you.

Well, I think that you're touching on something a little different. I don't have any specific beliefs, so I'm not prepared to say that someone else is wrong. I don't know.

But that's distinct from someone who does profess to "know" what's what. Said another way, if I am a christian and I believe that this is the path to salvation, then necessarily, I also believe that other people are wrong. Same would go for most any other religion with the possible exception of Buddhism or Bahai, depending upon how you look at it. If you're a muslem, jewish, christian or whatever else, you can't believe in your own dogma without necessarily disbelieving in everyone else's.

 

[Instructor]

Religion, and its attendant rituals and doctrines, has a price in the here and now, and saving that price against the (imo, extreme unlikelihood) of God's existance is a form of payoff. The rituals consume resources. Doctrines imposed can cause harm - both self inflicted, and against others, all in the chance that Pascal's poor wager will pay off. If we both wake up in Xibalba, we both lost.

They 'can' cause harm, and have. BUT they can also do a lot of good, and have.

 

[Steve]

They 'can' cause harm, and have. BUT they can also do a lot of good, and have.

Sure. Religion is like community organizing. If you're charismatic and organize a group, you can get a lot done, whether it's as a mob or as a charity. You get enough people together under any banner and stuff gets done.

But that's true of any large group, not just religion.

 

[Jenna]

Hi Jenna, I think that one of the things about faith is trust. Trust in the unknown and trust in God. Also trust in other people. We have to be careful in forums like this when we come out with such proud statements as I believe in my god thus your god is wrong, not just because it can offend others but also because the presumed superiority taken by that statement can actually put us far out of sinc, not just with others but with everyone.

Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts. I am grateful for them.

<devil's advocate>

Let me be the proverbial devil's advocate then and suggest to you a situation in which I claim a certain beliefset and know it conflicts with yours.

My beliefset is self-contained and does not recognise the validity, provenance or claims of your beliefset (or any others). In conversation, the subject arises and I tell you that I think your beliefset is wrong (as I might do about your habit of running with cutlery ).

Am I being superior?

My beliefset tells me that it is right and all others are wrong.

Why you are offended at that? Why does my assertion that your beliefset is wrong cause you offence? I think my opinion is not that important to you so why does it matter?
​

</devil's advocate>

Can I ask please, what do you think I am missing when I make this assertion about your beliefset? Thank you.

 

[Jenna]

Hi Jenna


I was raised Buddhist and I do my best to follow the teachings.


I am not sure what it is you want to know about. Plenty of basics can be found online, monstery codes and rules are stricter and demanding.
If someone asks us to give Dharma we are happy to do so however we never go around preaching Dharma to others who are not interested.
Buddhism for me brings peace, understanding it is a thinking religion and one in which the Buddha himself said to test his view to see if it is true(to you)

If there is anything you would you like me to discuss further let me know.

Hello back I am grateful for your post. It is a shared experience of the positive things that faiths might bring to our lives that I am interested in hearing. I am interested not in what I can read in general terms and but how your beliefs have given you that peace or happiness in your daily life I appreciate that you do not seek to talk about your faith when it is not pertinent, I am purely trying to provide space to share positives arising from your beliefs I also agree with the view that you have presented, as I have mentioned elsewhere there is an old phrase that is similar: he who tastes knows Thank you so much for sharing.

 

[Jenna]

I would be willing to say that for every religious system I have experience with. All of them that I have studied posit truths about the world which we know are not true or which are highly unlikely to be true.

I would be less willing to say that about faith itself or the existence of the divine. There still is no reason to believe that the divine exists, but the case is not as clear as it is for organized religions. I guess the religions just had the bad luck to write everything down into a coherent form before we knew how the world worked.

Empty Hands, I wholly appreciate you posting this. Thank you!

I think we can allude to our perceptions and our core views at times and but the societal need to in many ways muffle these views I think is often not a good thing. I appreciate your forthrightness. I also feel that where some may fall down at the hurdle of specifying their beliefs and views in the face of opposing views is in their inability to accept that difference is ok; perhaps even to be valued.

I think that my view is the correct one as I believe do you and many others on this thread.

You are at liberty to tell me that you feel my view is incorrect, ill-advised or misinformed. I may feel free to do the same.

If I feel affronted then it is for me to question the source of that affront INTERNALLY in my own head. It is not for me to put a blame on you because we have established that your view is your entitlement.

Therefore, for me, I think the two keys to these discussions are 1. mutual acceptance of difference of opinion as valid and normal and of no threat, and 2. the requirement to confront one's own offence INTERNALLY rather than reflecting one's offence or anger back at the other viewpoint. In my mind, I think this is the reason we experience everything from vehement argument online to genocide, terrorism and war (my opinion )

I do very much welcome not only your frankness and but also that you have the courage of your convictions. Thank you.

 

[Langenschwert]

Well, I think that you're touching on something a little different. I don't have any specific beliefs, so I'm not prepared to say that someone else is wrong. I don't know.

But that's distinct from someone who does profess to "know" what's what. Said another way, if I am a christian and I believe that this is the path to salvation, then necessarily, I also believe that other people are wrong. Same would go for most any other religion with the possible exception of Buddhism or Bahai, depending upon how you look at it. If you're a muslem, jewish, christian or whatever else, you can't believe in your own dogma without necessarily disbelieving in everyone else's.

We don't have dogma in Asatru. We don't believe other people are wrong. With a multiplicity of deities, claiming a "one true way" is nonsensical. Just because Asatruar worship a dozen-ish deities, doesn't mean that there couldn't be still more being worshipped by someone else. This is why there were no religious wars amongst ancient Heathens. We don't care how others worship. It's simply none of our business. This is the great tragedy of monotheism: the tendency towards intolerance.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What about Crom?

Or the Discordians?

Or the Church of the SubGenius?

 

[rframe]

We don't have dogma in Asatru. We don't believe other people are wrong...
-Mark

Unless they are monotheistic and believe in logical absolute truth.... right?

 

[Steve]

We don't have dogma in Asatru. We don't believe other people are wrong. With a multiplicity of deities, claiming a "one true way" is nonsensical. Just because Asatruar worship a dozen-ish deities, doesn't mean that there couldn't be still more being worshipped by someone else. This is why there were no religious wars amongst ancient Heathens. We don't care how others worship. It's simply none of our business. This is the great tragedy of monotheism: the tendency towards intolerance.

Best regards,

-Mark

Mark, fair enough. Add Asatru to Buddhism and potentially Bahai.

 

[Gemini]

There still is no reason to believe that the divine exists, but the case is not as clear as it is for organized religions. I guess the religions just had the bad luck to write everything down into a coherent form before we knew how the world worked.

I found this an interesting statement. I think we know how the world works just as surely as we did when we knew the world was flat. Maybe absolute existence of the divine is what we'll know tomorrow.