ditangquan

[oddball]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ditangquan

Background Info: I was talking with a friend (was a wrestler from hs) about MA, and we decided that what he was looking for technique wise was something of a groundfighting system that incorporates striking. I wiki'd the whole list of MA, and went thru a few until I happened on this article... which I think is describing what I am looking for.

The questions: is this a groundfighting boxing? Is it a system specifically meant for striking on the ground? Is it a "true martial art", or have the techniques been divied up between the other martial arts? Is there even a groundfighting system that is very involved with groundfighting?

The disclaimer: I have very little background info with MA, let alone specifics of CMA.
Thanks for any info.

Edit: I think the first article mentioned "Dog boxing" which I then looked up and found as this - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Kung_Fu
Same questions apply.

 

[7starmantis]

I didn't watch the video or anything, but I think you would be wiser to get with a reputable school that teaches a realistic complete CMA rather than trying to find a "specialized" style to fullfill your needs. Groundfighting is much more effective when learned with striking and a system that can seemlessly flow from striking, standup, ground, etc is a better choice than one that is focused only on one aspect.

JMHO,
7sm

 

[Rook]

If he is already a wrestler, he is better off than much of the population already.

This system does not appear legitimate. Furthermore, it refers to several styles that I have never heard of and which should be well know. The term "ground element boxing" is also rather odd... ussually ground as an element is at the lowest end and water is the highest, also, no system is named after an element to my knowledge. ("Water boxing" for LBHF is a nickname and the art apparently contains referances to all the traditional elements). If you want Chinese groundfighting, you should look to old lineages of Shui Chiao and Fukien Dog boxing, both of which are both rare and populated with a large number of fakes - it will take some digging to get to the ones with real lineage.

He might consider grappling arts like judo, SAMBO, BJJ, catch wrestling or submission wrestling.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ditangquan is a real but I know little about it. I would have to agree with what is posted look to (Shuai Chiao) Shuaijiao. Ditangquan is from, I believe, the Song Dynasty and rare or at this point fairly non-existent and I suspect from looking at the VCD covers you posted it is likely more Wushu now than CMA. However as I stated I really know little about it so I could be wrong.

List of Chinese Martial
http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-chinese-martial-arts

Chinese Martial Arts
http://www.answers.com/topic/chinese-martial-arts

 

[oddball]

Alright, thanks for the responses.

And what is wushu vs. kung fu? I thought they were synonomous (errr, as reference point, I'm used to Jet Li in movies referring to his moves as kung fu, up until fearless which was wushu?).

Would a good system to supplement his wrestling be Wing Chun or Hung Gar? (I think those are closer range systems that would be good pre-grapple/groundfighting).

 

[Rook]

Alright, thanks for the responses.

And what is wushu vs. kung fu? I thought they were synonomous (errr, as reference point, I'm used to Jet Li in movies referring to his moves as kung fu, up until fearless which was wushu?).

Although the literal translation of "wushu" is "war art," it is used to refer to the preformance forms designed for government competitions. Wushu is itself not really so much a martial art as a form of dance based on the forms from traditional Chinese martial arts.

Would a good system to supplement his wrestling be Wing Chun or Hung Gar? (I think those are closer range systems that would be good pre-grapple/groundfighting).

Hung gar might be good but I really am not that knowledgable about the style's movement; wing chun uses a very different type of body movement than wrestling and would probably not make a good complement.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hung gar
http://www.answers.com/topic/hung-gar

Wing Chun
http://www.answers.com/topic/wing-chun

It sounds like you are looking to combine 2 CMA Styles or want a wrestling form of CMA and I still recommend if you want wrestling in the form of a CMA you really need to look to Shuaijiao.

But let me add this; I am not a practitioner of Southern Mantis, but there are some on MT. So I am not sure if this is part of the curriculum of Southern Mantis or not and I would not call it wrestling. But I did have the honor of sparing a rather skilled Southern Mantis person many years ago and it did go to the ground, Kinda, I was able to knock him down once (let me emphasize this "ONCE") and I mistakenly thought that I could then move in.... WRONG... the flurry of Kicks and punches that came from the ground at me made it fairly impossible to do much of anything but block, back up and watch him pop back up like you see in the movies.

Southern Praying Mantis
http://www.answers.com/topic/southern-praying-mantis

 

[Mantis King]

Some people think that south mantis does not have ground fighting they are wrong, it's call Hakka ground fighting, or fukien ground boxing I have heard it be called that to.

mantis king

 

[oddball]

Alright, thanks for answers - I guess I'll start looking for Southern Mantis schools. :uhyeah:
(err, I should have been a bit clearer - not trying to create a new MA by picking and choosing or learn off videos, but double check that the systems that he was interested in I had heard of were at least reputable; or failing that find some reputable ones).

 

[Xue Sheng]

Some people think that south mantis does not have ground fighting they are wrong, it's call Hakka ground fighting, or fukien ground boxing I have heard it be called that to.

mantis king

I was not sure; I could never get close enough after he was down to find out, all I could do is back up and let him get up, or I suppose I could have stayed there blocking kicks and punches all day.

It was incredibly impressive and it is one of the few sparring experiences I still remember quite clearly even though it was years ago. And I am very happy I had the chance to spar Southern Mantis... even though I did end up taking a beating.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[7starmantis]

Most true CMA school that teach a realistic and complete system will include quite a bit of ground fighting. The CMA's are, aside from popular belief, chocked full of ground fighting.

7sm

 

[Mantis King]

When you say Most true Most true CMA school that teach a realistic and complete system will include quite a bit of ground fighting. Can you name a few CMA styles that teach gound fighting?

mantis king

 

[7starmantis]

When you say Most true Most true CMA school that teach a realistic and complete system will include quite a bit of ground fighting. Can you name a few CMA styles that teach gound fighting?

mantis king

Well, like I said, most should. Take for example 7 Star Mantis. The principles that govern the system do not change from standing to ground fighting. The 7* system as taught by Raymond Fogg (mainly Chu family) covers heavily ground fighting, just not in the same way most people think of "groundfighting".

7sm

 

[oddball]

Sorry, 7star, could you elaborate on that point?
Do you mean that the strikes will work whether standing or on the ground, becuase the body will move in the same way?

 

[7starmantis]

Um...no, I dont see how the body could move the same standing as on the ground. I guess on a certain level some core body movements are the same, but I'm refering more to the principles behind the body movements.

I wasn't restricting it to strikes, but strikes can work from the ground. See, most CMA aren't technique driven, meaning person A does technique X so you do technique Y. There is never any one answer to a situation because of the millions of variables present that may change, but the principles behind the techniques are the same. Evading full force (ie. yielding, redirecting, trapping) can be adheared to on the ground or standing. The way you fight shouldn't change if you end up on the ground. Why train hard to develop sensitivity and feel only to disregard it for strength based techniques when on the ground?

If this type of training is left out I would personally feel the teaching to be incomplete. Thats why I made the statements I did. True CMA's teach and train how to fight on the ground, they simply address it from a different perspective than MMA and the like.

7sm