Discussion - Arts and Instructors covered by this forum

[Bob Hubbard]

Below is a non-inclusive list.

Please discuss in a polite, non-insulting and non-hostile manner those individuals whose arts/systems/etc may belong here.

Please justify your position using references and background information.

Please avoid insulting and disrespectful comments. While some of those named may be controvercial, you can explain explain your position without resorting to insults and similar wording.

Currently included are:
Stephen Hayes & To-Shin Do (SKH Quest Centers)
Rick Tew’s Martial Science (Tew Ryu Ninjutsu)
and RBWI (Robert Bussey’s schools and affiliated students)

Other names mentioned for possible inclusion are mentioned in this forums current charter thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18873

Please be aware that NO Sniping will be tolerated in this discussion. Offenders will be dealt with.
If you see a problem, use the Report to Mod link, and then DO NOT! respond to the sniping. Let US handle it.
​

 

[DWeidman]

Below is a non-inclusive list.
Currently included are:
Stephen Hayes & To-Shin Do (SKH Quest Centers)
Rick Tew’s Martial Science (Tew Ryu Ninjutsu)
and RBWI (Robert Bussey’s schools and affiliated students)

Seems to me (as an outsider) - that the only person in the list who has Menkyo Kaiden (judan) in a qualified, traditional Ninjustu school is SKH.

Anyone else teaching "ninjutsu" should have to come up with a lineage to back it up, neh? And "black belt" probably isn't sufficient...

-Daniel

 

[Flatlander]

And "black belt" probably isn't sufficient...

Why not? It seems to me that by BB in any art, you have a sufficient base from which to understand and art. You haven't "mastered" it, but probably get the point well enough to be proficient. Hopefully.

These are guys who have essentially compiled their own systems out of the knowledge that they have. If some portion of ninjutsu flavours the way they do things, then why not at least give credit to that in the name that they've chosen to use for their way?

Here's what I think. In the US, there are lawsuits that have happenned for just about anything. Have any of these people been sued for using this name? If not, I would venture to say that, unless someone is organizing such a campaign, the usage of ninjutsu, or ninjitsu, or whatever, is legal. The efficacy of it will be shown by its propagation and staying power.

It seems to me that the main contention is that this is non "Japanese ninjutsu", and therefore, is misrepresenting itself. Are they claiming to be? I don't see a lot of that. And there seems to be a reasonable amount of text on this board already in place to serve the purpose of "hey, this isn't Japanese ninjutsu!" So, why not just make it a place for people who would care to discuss the concepts offered?

I think most of them are pretty groovy.
:asian:

 

[jibran]

Yes, but a (non-honorary) judan has shown dedication and has much knowledge.

 

[DWeidman]

Why not? It seems to me that by BB in any art, you have a sufficient base from which to understand and art. You haven't "mastered" it, but probably get the point well enough to be proficient. Hopefully.

These are guys who have essentially compiled their own systems out of the knowledge that they have. If some portion of ninjutsu flavours the way they do things, then why not at least give credit to that in the name that they've chosen to use for their way?

Because it is not an honest reflection of what they do. They need to choose an HONEST name - why are they attaching to something they have no rights to attach to? There can only be a single reason - they want to purposely confuse people. There is no other reason. If they were confident of their skills - they would call their art by it's real name - like RTMS - NOT tew-ryu-ninjutsu.

Here's what I think. In the US, there are lawsuits that have happenned for just about anything. Have any of these people been sued for using this name? If not, I would venture to say that, unless someone is organizing such a campaign, the usage of ninjutsu, or ninjitsu, or whatever, is legal. The efficacy of it will be shown by its propagation and staying power.

It seems to me that the main contention is that this is non "Japanese ninjutsu", and therefore, is misrepresenting itself. Are they claiming to be? I don't see a lot of that. And there seems to be a reasonable amount of text on this board already in place to serve the purpose of "hey, this isn't Japanese ninjutsu!" So, why not just make it a place for people who would care to discuss the concepts offered?

I think most of them are pretty groovy.
:asian:

Because it is not honest (sound familiar?). The word itself defines what it is. Ninjustu is a JAPANESE word. It isn't about the italian special forces (which, by a broad brush, could be painted as Ninja) - because NINJA and NINJUTSU are JAPANESE by definition...

Here is an example: Kenjutsu or Kendo - if you go to a Kenjutsu school, you aren't going to learn about the Scottish / European sword fighting methods. If you went to a Kenjutsu school and saw people working with foils - you would be disappointed. Not to say the foil work is crappy or the instruction in european fencing is poor - just that the REASON you went to the SCHOOL was to get KENJUTSU training - which, by DEFINITION, is JAPANESE sword work.

You expect them to use "fencing" - "swordplay" - etc because that is WHAT they are doing!!!!

Not to say that Kenjutsu isn't swordwork as well - but the use of the JAPANESE term EXCLUDES western swordwork.

Does that make sense?

-Daniel

PS - I am getting sick and tired of people who defend liars. It is really clear here people... And the school's "effectiveness" or "groovy-ness" is not a substitution for honesty.

PPS - American Ninjutsu is somewhat a oxy-moron. I suspect there is only one legitimate person in America who can claim that title - as he is the only holder of his own system and the holder of legitimate lineage to a ninjutsu...

Anyway...

 

[Flatlander]

Because it is not an honest reflection of what they do.

If the art contains elements derived from ninjutsu, then why may the name not?

They need to choose an HONEST name

As I said, what is wrong with honoring the source in the naming of a new system?

- why are they attaching to something they have no rights to attach to?

Regarding rights in the US, how about the freedom of expression? This is not a copyright infringement.....

There can only be a single reason - they want to purposely confuse people. There is no other reason.

This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. If you would care to convince anyone of your position, then I would suggest providing a source to justify the claim. Otherwise, it shall remain your opinion.

The word itself defines what it is. Ninjustu is a JAPANESE word. It isn't about the italian special forces (which, by a broad brush, could be painted as Ninja) - because NINJA and NINJUTSU are JAPANESE by definition...

If the movement is Japanese or appears to be Japanese in origin, would this be good enough for you?

Here is an example: Kenjutsu or Kendo - if you go to a Kenjutsu school, you aren't going to learn about the Scottish / European sword fighting methods. If you went to a Kenjutsu school and saw people working with foils - you would be disappointed. Not to say the foil work is crappy or the instruction in european fencing is poor - just that the REASON you went to the SCHOOL was to get KENJUTSU training - which, by DEFINITION, is JAPANESE sword work.

You expect them to use "fencing" - "swordplay" - etc because that is WHAT they are doing!!!!
Not to say that Kenjutsu isn't swordwork as well - but the use of the JAPANESE term EXCLUDES western swordwork.

Does that make sense?

I see lots of negative, but no real contribution here. The intent of the thread is not to re-name the arts that others have developed, it is to find an appropriate label for this forum. If the people frequenting this forum practice something with a "ninjutsu" element in the name of their art, then why does it offend you to reflect that in the naming of the forum?

Here, try this one.

As a traditional ninjutsu practitioner, it seems to me that the "traditional ninjutsu" forum would be a place you would frequent, so how does the naming of this forum effect you in any way, shape, or form? Have you read my previous post? Let me restate part of it for you:

So, why not just make it a place for people who would care to discuss the concepts offered?

This wasn't answered....

PS - I am getting sick and tired of people who defend liars. It is really clear here people... And the school's "effectiveness" or "groovy-ness" is not a substitution for honesty.

Honesty to whom? You? Who are you?

Mr. Weidman, I ask that you be very clear with me here.

1) Are you calling the people for whom this sub-forum was created "liars"?
2) If so, am I the one to whom you are referring when you claim to be "sick and tired" as I defend these alleged "liars"? Would you consider the person who made the decision to create this sub-forum as a defender of these "liars"?

Please, be specific and clear in your response. I am quite curious to read your reply. Also, be aware that I will not accept my having "mis-interpreted" what you have stated as a valid riposte. By quoting me in your statement, the intent and meaning are evident.

PPS - American Ninjutsu is somewhat a oxy-moron. I suspect there is only one legitimate person in America who can claim that title - as he is the only holder of his own system and the holder of legitimate lineage to a ninjutsu...

Anyway...

And where would you have the students of this person post and discuss? Here seems great, in fact, it seems perfect. But what would we call it if we couldn't use the word "ninjutsu"?

 

[Enson]

they would call their art by it's real name - like RTMS - NOT tew-ryu-ninjutsu.

Because it is not honest (sound familiar?). The word itself defines what it is. Ninjustu is a JAPANESE word. It isn't about the italian special forces (which, by a broad brush, could be painted as Ninja) - because NINJA and NINJUTSU are JAPANESE by definition...
...

please refer to my post on rtms and the difference with tew ryu ninjutsu. it might clear up some misconceptions.

re japanese language: well if that was the case no one could play baseball outside of american since it was founded here. we have our own league and there should be not other leagues out in the world because it is our sport. well we all know that the japanese favor baseball as a fun past time... in fact they even have their own leagues. we don't bag on them saying that it is not real baseball. its baseball done by different people. they have their own league and by rights can make anychages the want to the sport within their league.

well, my twist on things.

peace

 

[DWeidman]

re japanese language: well if that was the case no one could play baseball outside of american since it was founded here. we have our own league and there should be not other leagues out in the world because it is our sport. well we all know that the japanese favor baseball as a fun past time... in fact they even have their own leagues. we don't bag on them saying that it is not real baseball. its baseball done by different people. they have their own league and by rights can make anychages the want to the sport within their league.

This is a good example - actually. There was a predecesor to baseball - Cricket - and a predecesor to American Football - Rugby. We changed the rules - put our own spin on it - and then RENAMED it. Does anyone who plays baseball show up expecting to play cricket?

As to Japanese playing baseball - well - we have american traditionalists practicing japanese martial arts - trying to stay as accurate as they can. Those that train in a traditional dojo with ties to a real ninjutsu lineage have a right to associate themselves with the group they are actively training in.

-Daniel

 

[Enson]

ties to a real ninjutsu lineage have a right to associate themselves with the group they are actively training in.

-Daniel

what i'm saying is that baseball in japan is of their own choosing on how to play it. they can choose if they like to moderize it makeing it a full contact sport or not. just how they decide to play it. would it be traditional baseball? no, but they could call it japanese baseball or modern baseball. well, modern to them anyway.

peace

 

[Don Roley]

And there seems to be a reasonable amount of text on this board already in place to serve the purpose of "hey, this isn't Japanese ninjutsu!" So, why not just make it a place for people who would care to discuss the concepts offered?

Dan,
Did you notice the quote above? I think that as long as everyone knows that we are not talking about ninjutsu as it is done in Japan, then we are all right. But the sticky point seems to be that when people start defining "legitimate" training and their own definitions of what ninjutsu is, then you have arguments about what those definitions are. If we drop all that, and make it clear to everyone that it is not Japanese ninjutsu and not bound by any one source for legitimacy or definition then your concerns are answered.

 

[DWeidman]

If the art contains elements derived from ninjutsu, then why may the name not?

I wouldn't mind if someone actually started something called, "Joe's School for ***-Kicking - inspired by the Ninja" or "Joe's Interpretation of the Ninjutsu as taught by Hatsumi". Either one of those school names would be honest, as they don't claim to teach Ninjutsu, just a guys version of what he learned. If you don't have Menkyo from a school, you can't claim to teach it legitmately. Just because I know where a college is, and took classes - doesn't mean I can say I have a PhD. There needs to be a diploma that goes with it. SKH can produce his judan in a legitimate Ninjutsu school. Can anyone else being mentioned?

Regarding rights in the US, how about the freedom of expression? This is not a copyright infringement.....

...which is why we are having this conversation. The freedom of expression doesn't cover things like identity theft... which IMHO is what we are looking at here.

If the movement is Japanese or appears to be Japanese in origin, would this be good enough for you?

No. In fact - it is probably worse.

I see lots of negative, but no real contribution here. The intent of the thread is not to re-name the arts that others have developed, it is to find an appropriate label for this forum. If the people frequenting this forum practice something with a "ninjutsu" element in the name of their art, then why does it offend you to reflect that in the naming of the forum?

Well - the first question asked was:

Below is a non-inclusive list.

Please discuss in a polite, non-insulting and non-hostile manner those individuals whose arts/systems/etc may belong here.

Please justify your position using references and background information.

I answered with my list and justified it.

So, why not just make it a place for people who would care to discuss the concepts offered?

If that is the intent of the forum - then take out the Ninjutsu title - and call it "Concepts from people who used to study Ninjutsu and now run their own schools".

Mr. Weidman, I ask that you be very clear with me here.

1) Are you calling the people for whom this sub-forum was created "liars"?
No.

2) If so, am I the one to whom you are referring when you claim to be "sick and tired" as I defend these alleged "liars"?
Yes. You are one of the (many) people who are siding with the "Ex-Ninja student turned new ninja-art founders".
Would you consider the person who made the decision to create this sub-forum as a defender of these "liars"?
Not yet. It seems as though questions are being asked to clarify things (including the forum name).

Please, be specific and clear in your response. I am quite curious to read your reply. Also, be aware that I will not accept my having "mis-interpreted" what you have stated as a valid riposte. By quoting me in your statement, the intent and meaning are evident.

Was that specific enough? Let me know if I need to explain it again.

I am calling those who start their own Variations of "Ninjutsu" without legitimate lineage liars - as I have explained above.

And where would you have the students of this person post and discuss? Here seems great, in fact, it seems perfect. But what would we call it if we couldn't use the word "ninjutsu"?

SKH's ToShinDo is the one school who I would say is entitled to use the name "ninjutsu". Hence my list of one school at the beginning of this.

Carry on...

-Daniel

 

[Shogun]

Dan,
Did you notice the quote above? I think that as long as everyone knows that we are not talking about ninjutsu as it is done in Japan, then we are all right. But the sticky point seems to be that when people start defining "legitimate" training and their own definitions of what ninjutsu is, then you have arguments about what those definitions are. If we drop all that, and make it clear to everyone that it is not Japanese ninjutsu and not bound by any one source for legitimacy or definition then your concerns are answered.

So basically, the words "Prove it" have no place here in regards to AN. as long as it is AN, and not JN.

 

[DWeidman]

Dan,
Did you notice the quote above? I think that as long as everyone knows that we are not talking about ninjutsu as it is done in Japan, then we are all right. But the sticky point seems to be that when people start defining "legitimate" training and their own definitions of what ninjutsu is, then you have arguments about what those definitions are. If we drop all that, and make it clear to everyone that it is not Japanese ninjutsu and not bound by any one source for legitimacy or definition then your concerns are answered.

Hey Don -

Yeah - I still have a beef with the use of the Japanese word instead of calling it "Joe's School for being Sneaky".

But yeah - it covers the rest of my concerns...

-Daniel

 

[Flatlander]

Dan,
Did you notice the quote above? I think that as long as everyone knows that we are not talking about ninjutsu as it is done in Japan, then we are all right. But the sticky point seems to be that when people start defining "legitimate" training and their own definitions of what ninjutsu is, then you have arguments about what those definitions are. If we drop all that, and make it clear to everyone that it is not Japanese ninjutsu and not bound by any one source for legitimacy or definition then your concerns are answered.

Fair enough. This is most certainly not Japanese ninjutsu, nor can legitimately be called such. :asian:

 

[Flatlander]

The freedom of expression doesn't cover things like identity theft... which IMHO is what we are looking at here.

OK, I see your point here.

If that is the intent of the forum - then take out the Ninjutsu title - and call it "Concepts from people who used to study Ninjutsu and now run their own schools".
Was that specific enough? Let me know if I need to explain it again.

That was sufficient. It brings to mind the question, however - where can the people who are not Toshindo practitioners call home?

I am calling those who start their own Variations of "Ninjutsu" without legitimate lineage liars - as I have explained above.

I think this is where we are not really on the same page. My thought is this: There is no such thing as a legitimate variation of Japanese ninjutsu. What there was is all there is. If one is not endorsed by Hatsumi Sensei to teach the art, they are not teaching Japanese ninjutsu.

What there is, however, is a few gentlemen who have (as far as I know) studied some ninjutsu, and compiled their own systems that contain some elements of ninjutsu. The arts that they have compiled are referred to as some form of ninjutsu, or ninjitsu, or whatever. Given that it is not really my place, nor is this the vehicle, for those who would endeavor to eradicate the world of these perceived identity theives, I do feel that their students ought to have a place to discuss the things that they have in common. I think that this could be that place. I honestly don't think that there would be any question that they are not doing Japanese ninjutsu.

I believe we should strive to be inclusive, rather than elitist.

Is that fair?

 

[DWeidman]

Hey Don -

Yeah - I still have a beef with the use of the Japanese word instead of calling it "Joe's School for being Sneaky".

But yeah - it covers the rest of my concerns...

-Daniel

I would edit my last post - but it is too late. (so sorry for the double post)

It is similiar to "Spetsnaz" - an odd word to use anywhere else but within the context of Russian Special Forces. Ninjutsu is a word that has inferred Japanese meaning as its a Japanese word... I am not sure the disclaimer really takes care of the issue - but I suspect it is as close as we are going to get...

-Daniel

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok, couple quick bits.

1- Please everyone, I know this can get hot, but lets keep the heat from rising. It will help us get this fixed faster. Thank you.

That over with,

2- While I'd love to call this "Americans who use ninja ideas and techniques in a uniquely american look at an ancient art", it's simply too long to use as a forum name. "American Style Ninjutsu" is much shorter. A more indepth description can of course be used in the description secttion.

3- We don't have "American Spetsnaz", we have "American Special Forces". We don't have "American Kung Fu", but we do have "American Kenpo", which I believe also went through a similar lambasting in the 70's and 80's, before becoming accepted for the most part. I have seen in marketing "Filipino Karate", "American Karate", etc. But do we have "American Savate", "American TKD", French Kendo, German Tai Chi? So the question here is "Is it just marketing hype, or is it an evolution that will someday be 'ok?"

I don't care what the final list/etc ends up being. Just that we develop together some guidelines that most on all sides can live with.

 

[heretic888]

What there is, however, is a few gentlemen who have (as far as I know) studied some ninjutsu, and compiled their own systems that contain some elements of ninjutsu. The arts that they have compiled are referred to as some form of ninjutsu, or ninjitsu, or whatever. Given that it is not really my place, nor is this the vehicle, for those who would endeavor to eradicate the world of these perceived identity theives, I do feel that their students ought to have a place to discuss the things that they have in common. I think that this could be that place. I honestly don't think that there would be any question that they are not doing Japanese ninjutsu.

I believe we should strive to be inclusive, rather than elitist.

Is that fair?

Well, Flatlander, here's the thing --- most of what is being labeled as "American Ninjutsu" could actually fall into the category of Mixed Martial Arts (which has its own forum). There are a helluva lotta arts under Mixed Martial Arts, yet we see none of them apparently deserving to have their own forum. Why the special privilege for AN crowd??

Hayes' stuff I wouldn't be comfortable calling MMA --- since Toshindo is his personal take on what he was taught, not mixings what he was taught with non-Bujinkan martial arts. But, Dux? Tew? Bussey? Kim? That's all MMA, through and through.

So, again, why do some hybrid martial arts have their own forums --- and some do not?? I just don't get it.

But, hey, maybe that's just me. :asian: :asian:

 

[Flatlander]

most of what is being labeled as "American Ninjutsu" could actually fall into the category of Mixed Martial Arts (which has its own forum).

Hmmmmmm. Food for thought. Thank you. :asian:

 

[sojobow]

Hmmmmmm. Food for thought. Thank you. :asian:

Not really. MMA has no ties to Sun Tzu, Spirit, Mind or Body. No "MILITARY" arts philosophies or techniques in automation. I wouldn't spend too much time thinking on much presented as that rationale.

Simple question for thought though. If Ninjitsu is not a Japanese term/word, what is the problem with someone outside of Japan using the term?

Another simple question: why haven't we read any complaints from native-born Japanese?