Modern Arnis Lineage List or chart

Datu Tim Hartman

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John moved a couple times. I will have the entire Buffalo list up by the end of the weekend.
 
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Originally posted by arnisador

John Bryant, who recvd his black belt in the early 80s (I believe) but who has been inactive for some time, to the best of my knowledge. He opened the first Buffalo-area school; indeed, one of the first Modern Arnis schools.

Hi Arnisador,

I want to offer a corrrection to your post. The first school to teach Modern Arnis in the Buffalo area was owned and operated by Sifu Don Zanghi. He was John Bryant's instructor. Sifu Zanghi was also the only Buffalo area instructor to attend the two week camps in Washington State in the late 1970s. He operated his school under the "Fighting Back Institute" name and he served as the first IMAF Area Representative. Sifu Zanghi taught Tracy System Kenpo and Modern Arnis as co-equals from white through black belt, begining in 1979.

John Bryant attended the week long camps in PA in 1980 and 81. In 1981, Professor Presas, pulled John aside, at the Ardmore, PA camp and promoted him to Lakan, without Sifu Zanghi's, knowledge and consent. At the time John, had just earned his first brown belt promotion from Sifu Zanghi. John came back to Buffalo and opened the "Filipino Martial Arts Academy". He taught Modern Arnis, exclusively, however, Sifu Zanghi remained the IMAF Area Representative for another 3 years. I will not go into the hard feelings that resulted from John's promotion by Professor.

I believe that Tim Hartman became a student of the FMAA in 1983, and by that time Dave Smith and Tammy Wilson were the instrutional assistants and they were on their way to earning their Lakan grades, from Professor. Tammy was the first female
in NY State to earn the Lakan/Dayang rank in Modern Arnis. There was one other women associated with John, who was close to earning a lakan, but she dropped out of training.

Don Zanghi had three females who went to the Likah/ Brown Belt levels but none of them tested for Lakan status. Several people that Tim has listed in a post above as his black belts were actually classmates of mine at the Zanghi School and had earned Likah ranks prior to the closing of the "Fighting Back Insitute" - Tim and I worked with those people for about 18 months before they want to the Michigan Camp, where they tested and earned their Lakans - Jeff Rech and Tim Unger - David Battaglia, earned his Lakan two years later in Buffalo, although David is senior to all of us in terms of time in Modern Arnis training.

Since I was involved in the Zanghi group from 1981, I think I have a very accurate picture of the history behing Modern Arnis in the Buffalo area and what I am reporting is not second hand or hearsay information. Battaglia and I completed our training under Sifu Zanghi and received our Shodan and Lakan gradings through him, as well as earning Lakan status from Professor Presas, in Modern Arnis.

David is teaching Modern Arnis and Aikido in Kenmore, NY and I am teaching Modern Arnis, Pancipanci Eskrima and Tracy Kenpo
at both a private school in Hamburg, NY and at Erie Community College in Orcghard, NY.

My students who have earned Lakan gradings under Professor are Tim Kashino, Richard Curren and Thomas Verga.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
 

Datu Tim Hartman

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John was the first full time Modern Arnis school teaching Modern Arnis only.
 

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The following are the Black Belts that started in Buffalo or came to Buffalo for their training. Several of these people may have trained with more than one teacher. This list represents who was their primary influence. Most of the head instructors became direct student of GM Presas.

Don Zanghi produced the following students:
Jerome Barber
John Bryant
Gary Castanza

John Bryant produced the following students:
Tim Hartman
Dave Smith
Tammy Wilson

Tammy Wilson produced:
Peter Kautz

Dan Carr Produced:
Bob Chesbro

Tim Hartman 6th Degree produced the following students:
Kevin Black
Jeff Rech
Jeffery Leader
Ron Murcin
Mike Alfano
Mike Antecki
A. Paul Dawdy (Canada)
John CS Lehmann
Paul O’Grady
Amy Antecki
David Battaglia
Gene Cunningham
George Harris
Primo Luciano
Mark Mosler
Mike Milazzo
David Pajak
Mike Rogers
Tim Unger
Jordan Yee

Dr. Jerome Barber produced the following students:
Richard Curren Black - Lakan
Tim Kashino Black - Lakan
Tom Verga Black - Lakan

The following is the complete list of Black Belts from Buffalo with rank issued by GM Presas:

1.Tim Hartman--------------6th Black - Lakan Anim

2.Dan Carr------------------Rank 4th or 5th???

3.Jerome Barber-----------3rd Black - Lakan Tatlo
4.Kevin Black---------------3rd Black - Lakan Tatlo
5.Bob Chesbro--------------3rd Black - Lakan Tatlo
6.Jeff Rech-------------------3rd Black - Lakan Tatlo
7.Don Zanghi---------------3rd Black ???

8.Jeffery Leader------------2nd Black - Lakan Dalawa
9.Ron Murcin----------------2nd Black - Lakan Dalawa

10.Mike Alfano--------------1st Black - Lakan Isa
11.Mike Antecki-------------1st Black - Lakan Isa
12.John Bryant--------------1st Black - Lakan Isa
13.A. Paul Dawdy-----------1st Black - Lakan Isa (Canada)
14.John CS Lehmann-------1st Black - Lakan Isa
15.Paul O’Grady-------------1st Black - Lakan Isa

16.Amy Antecki--------------Black - Dayang
17.David Battaglia----------Black - Lakan (belt revoked by GM Presas)
18.Gary Castanza----------Black - Lakan
19.Gene Cunningham------Black - Lakan
20.Richard Curren----------Black - Lakan
21.George Harris-----------Black - Lakan
22.Tim Kashino-------------Black - Lakan
23.Peter Kautz--------------Black - Lakan
24.Primo Luciano-----------Black - Lakan
25.Mark Mosler-------------Black - Lakan
26.Mike Milazzo------------Black - Lakan
27.David Pajak-------------Black - Lakan
28.Mike Rogers-------------Black - Lakan
29.Dave Smith--------------Black - Lakan (belt revoked by GM Presas)
30.Tim Unger---------------Black - Lakan
31.Tom Verga--------------Black - Lakan
32.Tammy Wilson----------Black - Dayang
33.Jordan Yee--------------Black - Lakan


* The people listed above have been issued OFFICIAL IMAF diplomas from GM Presas. These ranks have not been bestowed by WMAA, IMAF Shea, IMAF Delaney, MARPPIO, DAV, etc. Although, some of them have since been awarded such ranks in addition.
 

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Originally posted by Renegade

John was the first full time Modern Arnis school teaching Modern Arnis only.

This was what I meant to say. Dr. Barber is correct that the story is more complicated than that. I knew many but not all of the details he mentions and most of the people. Thanks for clarifying the matter!
 

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Originally posted by Renegade

The people listed above have been issued OFFICIAL IMAF diplomas from GM Presas. These ranks have not been bestowed by WMAA, IMAF Shea, IMAF Delaney, MARPPIO, DAV, etc.

Although, some of them have since been awarded such ranks in addition.
 

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Datu Dieter Knüttel

Blaco belts of the DAV in Germany directly under Remy Presas
Hi Kelly

I am glad, I´ve got the list complete. Even though I have send a lot of names already, here are them all together once more, so you get the complete picture of the black blets of the DAV here in Germany, that were ranked directly under the Professor. All together there are 60 black belts with the following structure:

1 x 6th Dan
2 x 5th Dan
2 x 4th Dan
10 x 3rd Dan
15 x 2nd Dan
25 x 1st Dan

Name--rank/year of the rank--start of the Arnis training

Datu Dieter Knüttel -- 6th Dan/1996 -- 1978

Hans Karrer -- 5th Dan/1999 -- 1979
Jorgen Gydesen -- 5th Dan/1999 -- 1983

Peter Rutkowski -- 4th Dan/1999 -- 1984
Carsten Hemmersbach -- 4th Dan/1999 -- 1988

Helmut Meisel -- 3rd Dan/1996 -- 1984
Michael Jux -- 3rd Dan/1996 -- 1982
Simone Schlötels -- 3rd Dan/1996 -- 1987
Sunny Graff -- 3rd Dan/1999 -- 1985
Kall Wall -- 3rd Dan/1999 -- 1984
Albert Diemer -- 3rd Dan/1999 -- 1984
Sven Barchfeld -- 3rd Dan/1999 -- 1985
Bernd Vieth -- 3rd Dan/1999 -- 1988
Roland Schültke -- 3rd Dan/1999 -- 1991
Siegfried Derwisch -- 3rd Dan/1999-- 1985

Horst Brandt -- 2nd Dan/1994
Dieter Armerding -- 2nd Dan/1996
Michael Lappen -- 2nd Dan/1996
Ingo Hutschenreuther -- 2nd Dan/1996
Jörg Israel -- 2nd Dan/1996
Finn Rathmann -- 2nd Dan/1996
Stefan di Biccari -- 2nd Dan/1996
Hans Peter Arto -- 2nd Dan/1997
Roland Schültke -- 2nd Dan/1997
Erich Muchow -- 2nd Dan/1999
Ute Proll -- 2nd Dan/1999
Tobias Rosenkranz -- 2nd Dan/1999
John Peter Foelsch -- 2nd Dan/1999
Carola Maucher -- 2nd Dan/1999
Siegfried Wittwer -- 2nd Dan/1999

Arthur Pakulla -- 1st Dan/1996
Peter Swirski -- 1st Dan/1996
Tobias Rosenkranz -- 1st Dan/1996
Peter Rubik -- 1st Dan/1996
Irmgard Deschler -- 1st Dan/1996
Ingo Hahmann -- 1st Dan/1996
Kurt Reffler -- 1st Dan/1996
Axel Grassmann -- 1st Dan/1996
Gerd Leiendecker -- 1st Dan/1996
Jamil Tarkhani -- 1st Dan/1997
Stephan Chun -- 1st Dan/1997
Sven Jander -- 1st Dan/1997
Gianfranco Casillo -- 1st Dan/1997
Jörg Kluthke -- 1st Dan/1997
Myriam Krasch -- 1st Dan/1999
Timo Dryk -- 1st Dan/1999
Mark Broere -- 1st Dan/1999
Ewangelos Poungias -- 1st Dan/1999
Vincente Batala -- 1st Dan/1999
Markus Kenkmann -- 1st Dan/1999
Dick Schöellhorn -- 1st Dan/1999
Michael Naber -- 1st Dan/1999
Stefan Lucas -- 1st Dan/1999
Rüediger Roessler -- 1st Dan/1999
Florian Rosenkranz -- 1st Dan/1999

Thank you for asrking, we never had all the nemes together. Now we have. I am looking forward for the complete list or chart, if it ever will be complete.

Keep up the good work.

Greetings


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis
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Datu Tim Hartman

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Dieter,

when did these people test in front of Remy? Also , I thought you said that the DAV wasn't part of the IMAF. The reason I ask is that is alot of people being promoted by Remy without being memebers.

Datu Tim Hartman
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Dieter Knüttel

Tests
Hi Tim

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quote:
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when did these people test in front of Remy?
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the year of the tests is always put behind the names and degrees.
If you want I can find out the precise dates for all the tests. They were always held before or after a seminar when the Professor visited us here in Germany.

When you would not have lost your tickes in 1999 in Frankfurt, you could have whitnessed the test of all 27 Modern Arnis blackbelts, that passed the test then, like Datu David Hoffmann and Jeff Delaney did. They were also on the board with Remy, me and other high ranking blackbelts.
It took somethig like 5 hours all together. We made one examination for 1st Dan, after that for the 2nd and 3rd Dans and then for the 4th and 5th Dans. You were there, unfortunately you were busy getting back your tickes (what I could and can understand) but I would have liked to have had you on the board.
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quote:
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thought you said that the DAV wasn't part of the IMAF. The reason I ask is that is alot of people being promoted by Remy without being members.
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For the IMAF, please note, that I did not write: "everybody made the degree in the IMAF", but I wrote, that "all of them made the test directly under the eyes of Remy". After the test we always discussed the results of every student with Remy and he personally approved every promotion. They all got his signature on their certificate. And I think this is what counts, because as far as i know, in Remys active times, there was no standardised examination requirements, that were valid for all gradings all over the US. We had this here and still have it and all students had to show the requirements for their degree.

Remy never ever said anything to us, that we should join the IMAF. We were and are a strong, well run association here in Germany and at that time, the IMAF seemed not very important to him.

Regards

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis
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Datu Tim Hartman

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So what you're saying is that it was a DAV testing that Remy signed off on. So the Black Belts that were issued are DAV ones that Remy signed as a witness as he has done for other martial art organizations.
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Remys german was not good enough to tell the germans what to do during the grading. He was sitting with the board which did the testing and he decided, who passed the Modern Arnis black belt. In our case Remy was right in the board and not beside it like in the test in the USA that I have whitnessed.

And remember the question raised:

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quote:
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(ATTENTION!! THIS IS A MODIFICATION ON THE REQUEST FOR NAMES, PLEASE SUBMIT THE NAMES OF ANY PERSON THAT RECEIVED BLACKBELT STATUS FROM REMY A. PRESAS)

No major statements will be listed with each name, if you have people in mind and would like to include this information for status of position and recognition for inclusion it may help in deciding who will be listed but it is not a who has done what article only a listing of potential lineage practitioners to be included in the article or chart.

This is a big request, especially to keep non political,
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There is no request for IMAF, only who got the blackbelt directly from Remy.
And that is the case.

And to be frankly: If you are accepting them as Modern Arnis blackbelts or not is not important. Remy did and everybody who whitnessed the gradings (Randi Shea, Al Garza, Datu David Hoffman, Jeff Delaney, later Roland Dantres) and that is what counts.

But perhaps you can decide better than the Professor, who is a Modern Arnis black belt and who not, even without having seen the grading.
If so, congratulations.

Remy acknowledged the high standard of Modern Arnis that we have and thats what is important to us.

Regards

Dieter Knüttel
DATU of Modern Arnis


PS: You have to see, that I have been teaching Arnis for over 20 years now. I got my 5th Dan Modern Arnis in 1983 from Rodel Dagoog and Roland Dantes yand Willfredo Annang in Manila/Philippines, a year later from Ernesto Presas as well.
Thats why there are so many students with black belt and we have a lot more without Remys signature. There were alone 23 during the last test with Roland Dantes on the board, going to 1st, 2nd and 3rd Dan.
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Datu Tim Hartman

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So you understand this is not an attack on you. Since Remy moved to the states the only person who was authorized to promote to Black Belt was Remy himself. Remy told me this in 1997, when I asked him myself what belt I would have to be to promote people to Black Belt.
 

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Hi Tim,
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quote:
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So you understand this is not an attach on you.
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thanks for clearing that point. I might have taken it a bit personal.
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quote:
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Since Remy moved to the states the only person who was authorized to promote to Black Belt was Remy himself. Remy told me this in 1997, when I asked him myself what belt I would have to be to promote people to Black Belt.
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Well, in the US that might have been true, but I got in 1984 from Ernesto the license to promote students up to 4th Dan in Modern Arnis. When I got the Datu and the European Modern Arnis Represantative from Remy in 1996, he also granted this right to me, even up to 5th Dan, but I never used it. We only graded up to 3rd Dan without him, but aleways in a commission with me and at least 2 more 3rd , 4th or 5th Dans. So our grading commissions were always between 3 and 5 examiners.

I think Remy understood, that he is only once a year in Europe and that it is not possible for him to be at every grading, nor is it possible for all the students to fly to the US for their black belt test. This would have slowed down the spreading of Modern Aris here. You saw it, 60 gradings in these years only in front of him, and perhapps another 40 - 60 without him. This is a lot of people.
I think this is why he granted that right to me, especially after he saw, that our gradings were correct and we would not give the degrees away.
In the US Remy was always every few months in every area, so this was not neccessary. This was different in Europe with the DAV.

Regards

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis
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Datu Tim Hartman

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I wrote this:

Since Remy moved to the states the only person who was authorized to promote to Black Belt was Remy himself. Remy told me this in 1997, when I asked him myself what belt I would have to be to promote people to Black Belt.

Dieter wrote:
Well, in the US that might have been true, but I got in 1984 from Ernesto the license to promote students up to 4th Dan in Modern Arnis.

Remember that Ernesto had to change the name because of Remy. So this would mean that you were licensed to teach KOMBATON.

Dieter wrote:
When I got the Datu and the European Modern Arnis Represantative from Remy in 1996, he also granted this right to me, even up to 5th Dan, but I never used it.

Maybe in the DAV program, but I've NEVER heard Remy giving anyone permission to promote to that level. Remeber English is niether yours nor Remy's primary language. I would bet that there was some communication problems which lead to a couple misunderstandings.
 

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Remember that Ernesto had to change the name because of Remy. So this would mean that you were licensed to teach KOMBATON.

You start splitting hair.

I got it in 1986 (I looked it up) and then the Modern Arnis of Ernesto was closer to the Modern Arnis of Remys pink book that what Remy taught in his last years. I stopped training with Ernesto beginning of the 90ies and Remy made Ernesto stop using the term Modern Arnis only around 2000. So this was years after me.

Remember: Remy promoted me to 6th Dan MODERN ARNIS, he made me his 4th DATU of MODERN ARNIS and he made me his MODERN ARNIS Representative for Europe!
And all the of course only, because I don´t do Modern Arnis. Come on, this is very far fetched.

We had a strong and functioning Modern Arnis organisation set up before we met him and I know that he was impressed by that. By the way we handeled the uniform. On his first seminar in Germany in January 1994 we attended with 20 blackbelts in HIS unifgorm, where Gaby and the girls all wore Kung-Fu uniforms with belts. (He designed the red pants with the white t-shirt in the 70ies. You can see it in his pink book).
By the way we treated Modern Arnis as a stand alone art and not only as a supplement to JiuJutsu, Kempo or Karate.
By the way we and I taught the students and by the quality and standard we set with our gradings.

After the 1996 grading he said publicly: "It was very impressive. Erverybody learned selfdefense. That is the key. I am very proud of the German Arnis Association, for what they are doing. You keep the good work. You are doing right. You upift the standard of Arnis throughout the world. Thank you."
I have it on tape.

And thats why he brought americans over to Germany to whitness our gradings. He asked Al Garza in 1997 to invite me to teach in Texas (what I did a year later) and in 1999 he requested Jeff Delaney to invite me to Texas too.

Maybe in the DAV program, but I've NEVER heard Remy giving anyone permission to promote to that level. Remeber English is niether yours nor Remy's primary language. I would bet that there was some communication problems which lead to a couple misunderstandings.

If DAV program or not is not important. Important is that it is MODERN ARNIS.

You can bet what you want but I have been living in english speaking countries for more that 2 years and I KNOW, that there was no misunderstanding through the language between him and me in that matter. Everything was very clear.

Important for me is not, if you or anybody else belives it. Important for me is, that he gave it to me. This is all that counts.

Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis
 

arnisador

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Mr. Knüttel, what are the ranks in the DAV? I ask because I don't see any "0th degree" Lakans there--do you not use that rank?

Is 10th the highest rank? Presumably this is not yet applicable.
 

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For the record the posts between Deiter and I are from the WMAC forum and I posted them here for the benefit of our members who are not a member of both forums.
 

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Arnisador asked:

Mr. Knüttel, what are the ranks in the DAV? I ask because I don't see any "0th degree" Lakans there--do you not use that rank?Is 10th the highest rank? Presumably this is not yet applicable.


We have 5 student levels and 10 Lankan/Dayang, Dan or black belt levels.

I asked Remy about the 0th Degree (not even the name makes sense)
and he explained it to me this way:

In his pink book it says, after the student levels:

Black (rimmed with red) -------- Lakan ---- Dayang
1st Dan ----------------------- Isa ------ Isa
2nd Dan ---------------------- Dalawa --- Dalawa
3rd Dan ---------------------- Tatlo ----- Tatlo
etc.

He said, that the first line, Black (rimmed wirth red ) etc. was the HEADLINE for the blackbelts.
But when he came to the US, it was misinterpreted as a separate rank. So it was done this way, estabished this way and he never really bothered to correct it.

It was then declared as a "provisional black belt".

When you look at ALL other martial arts, that have Dan degrees, I don´t know of any, that uses a "0 Dan" degree.

So when a brown belt passes the exam to black belt, he has the first black belt and that is Lakan Isa.
Remy was well aware of that and never had any objections.

For your second question, as mentioned above, in Modern Arnis there are 10 Dan levels. Within the DAV I am the currently the highest rank with 6th Dan. But we acknowledge for example Roland Dantes or Rodel Dagoog with their 8th Dans of course.


Regards from Germany

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis
 
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