Discipline

[OC Kid]

How and why do you disipline students in you class. I usually give them push ups or sit ups or X amount of kicks for goofing off during the class.
But like I said in a recent post I started teching disadvantage kids. Im doing this free of charge. But I noticed that because its free they fail to show up all the time. There was one I just kicked out because he told me he couldnt make class because he had to go to catecism on tuesdays. So for 5-7 months he didnt make tuesdays. So when catecism was over for the summer I told him to start making tuesdays. he told me tuesday was his break day. (in other words he just didnt want to come on tuesdays) BTW, I adj the class schedule from monday/thursday to tuesday / thursday because they had boy scouts on mondays. A So I canned him for lieing. I made sure he understood why he was canned. BTW I canned his brother for not makeing class also. Now I got another couple of kids doing the same thing.
They called me seperately and told me they were sick (Tuesday), but one of my students who lives up the street from him said he saw him out playing. He made it to soccer practice the next day(Wensday) then called sick again on Thursday then made it to the school carnival on friday and here it is Tuesday and neither one showed again. Im tempted to can them also.
It just gets tireing to me. They were just getting to where I could start teaching them and they start this stuff.

When their parents asked me to teach them(yea they came to me and asked me to teach them ), I told the parents I dont want no 'palabras' (it means "words" in spanish in english It would mean dont be stroking me .) Oh no the parents told me no palabras..no no..and here I am If they want to learn Ill teach them but they got to make to class. Well It lasted about 6 weeks and here I am. P.O.'d feeling like a sucker. I dont like feeling like Im being taken advantage of or being used. Im tempted to tell them to go to the McDojo up the street and pay the 100 bucks a month for lessons. They wont miss those classes I bet.
After all the talks in the class I gave them about dedication, discipline and hard work . I thought I was reaching them but I feel like Im being stroked. Dont I feel like the fool. Thanks for letting me vent.

 

[Ceicei]

If they're starting to lie and avoid going to class, maybe they feel it's not fun any more? What can you do to make it more enjoyable? Yes, discipline has its place and they shouldn't be "walking all over you", but they should also feel like you geniunely want them to be there. If they feel that you like them and believe in them, they will work hard to earn your trust. They do try testing you in the beginning, though, to see how much you care for them. Don't throw out the rules (they need those rules for structure), but don't make rules be the focus that you leave compassion out.

- Ceicei

 

[TigerWoman]

I'm sorry that it didn't work for you. It sounds like you put alot of work and effort into those kids. And its admirable of you to offer MA to those disadvantaged kids. They or their parents didn't value it enough. I guess that's why we charge tuition.sigh! Although in our school, our master allowed two disadvantaged kids that I know of that made it pretty far in the system. They would come without a uniform, or either too small, or torn or unwashed. They would lose their belts for years and not wear anything, but they would show up. Their grandfather grumbled that he had to take them. I drove them home a few times. I think it was their lifeline to find self-worth.

I would ask a potential student their goals, motives for joining upon enrollment but I don't know if this would make them stay. At least it would give you a clue as to what they wanted from it. Usually parents are responsible alot for making sure they get there unless they can walk. And if parents work and can't drive them...

Just a comment and I hope you don't take this wrong, but did you make it FUN? Kids, I think need a different kind of workout--like games, running, around cones, jumping, crab walks, monkey runs, timed contests. They also like change so not much time on form and repetition. If they don't walk away from each session feeling good about themselves, they won't be back.

As far as discipline, my daughter talked too much in class so she did alot of stairclimbing. We always thought of her as our fragile flower and that she would never stay in. She stayed all the way until college. I guess if they know you are doing the discipline for their benefit not to be mean-which I'm sure you're not, then they will grow from it. Kids with low esteem might just be done in with more "criticism"--probably get it at home too. We just talk alot to them-take them aside and make an "agreement" between you and the child. Then they know exactly what you are expecting and that the discipline is not personal. Youngest ones, we have them close their eyes and stand up. Otherwise its pushups or jumping jacks. You can't solve all their problems though especially if they have a discipline problem elsewhere. Don't give up on them, you know... that indomitable spirit thing.
God Bless You.

 

[Brother John]

Im doing this free of charge. But I noticed that because its free they fail to show up all the time.

When their parents asked me to teach them(yea they came to me and asked me to teach them ), I told the parents I dont want no 'palabras' (it means "words" in spanish in english It would mean dont be stroking me .) Oh no the parents told me no palabras..no no..and here I am If they want to learn Ill teach them but they got to make to class. Well It lasted about 6 weeks and here I am. P.O.'d feeling like a sucker. I dont like feeling like Im being taken advantage of or being used. Im tempted to tell them to go to the McDojo up the street and pay the 100 bucks a month for lessons. They wont miss those classes I bet.

I thought I was reaching them but I feel like Im being stroked. Dont I feel like the fool. Thanks for letting me vent.

The "booooing" always begins in the cheap seats.
Make them pay, even if it's only a tid-bit.
In our society people tend to take "it" seriously when they've paid for "it"....whatever "it" may be.
In your case, martial arts.

Just a thought
Your Brother
John

 

[Kenpo Mama]

Hi OC Kid,

It is admirable that you have given back to your art by teaching disadvantaged children. Try to make it as fun as possible for the kids that are coming to class, and if they have a fun time, they'll be sure to tell the no-shows just what they are missing. Also i think that Brother John has really hit the nail on the head. Charge them SOMETHING, people do put a value on something they are paying for. I've done this before with "special" classes and definitely had a better turnout for the classes that required a nominal fee. Keep your spirits up and don't get discouraged.

Donna :asian:

 

[Shinzu]

i have also done this for undepriviledged children at a local school. i was getting paid to do the job, but it was more like baby sitting. the kids were not interested in anything but fooling around or playing other games than learning karate.

i was giving up my time and was willing to help others. some kids really wanted to learn and i saw the spark in them, but the bad out weighed the good. i feel that they were there only there because they had to be, not because they wanted too.

i finished out my agreement with the school and let them know that i would not be able to continue the lessons next year. for those that were interested i told them where they could find me, and for those that were not.... i hope i was able to teach them a little of how wonderful the martial arts could be.

 

[Makalakumu]

I also teach disadvantaged/at-risk youth. A few things...

1. There families have no discipline so they will have none.
2. Pulling it together for three weeks is a major accomplishment for some.
3. Its hard to come to class when your mother pawned your uniform for crack (this happened on more then one occasion in my dojang)
4. "There are no free lunches" Make them pay. My students will mow my lawn paint my fence or rake my yard if they have no money. I also organize community service projects and trade attendence for dojang dues.

upnorthkyosa

 

[loki09789]

Look up stuff on Token reward systems to better understand why you have to charge them something - not outrageously, but something. Percieved value is really tough to interpret but for most folks quality means price and cheap means worthless - especially in kid mentallity.

I have to agree with the "fun" comments - but only to a point. Fun as in challenging and rewarding. Not necessarily fun as in hop scotch and candy. There are some great websites that are about coaching and teaching kids that you could refer to for ideas and understanding.

Underpriviledged or Overindulged, either case can lead to little to no adult supervision for much of their time. It makes it hard to 'hold kids accountable' when some of these kids don't even have someone at home teaching them that. It might not be a bad idea to use some parental contact or have a casual open house/demo to set goals and such for the kids to shoot for.

Ideally we would love for everyone to be 'intrinsicly motivated' - RIGHT! People respond to goals and timelines better than just 'doing it to get better'. If you were to charge a minimal amount for training, convert that into tournament entry fees for them/maybe tshirst/uniforms and say that you want to take them to a forms/sparring/demo event it might inspire them and make them feel like they are working toward something.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

This is an amazing thing you are doing! Don't get discouraged! There is nothing to be feeling bad about here. The fact that you are seeking advice on this tells me that you care and are a giving person! You have no idea the impact you are really having on these kids. You may never know, but they will know it inside, and may appreciate it much more than they are capable of showing to you outwardly. Even the ones you have asked to leave you have influenced.



Ask yourself what do you want them to learn from you? What do you expect them to come away with? We would all love to have a room full of students who are self disciplined and willing participants, but those types of people do not need you as much as the less disciplined. I know it is much harder to reach the ones who need to develop self discipline, but try and see that you can make the greatest difference here. It is your right to select and choose to teach the kids who show their commitment, but if you want to make a difference with these other kids, who may need you most, you need to work on helping them to want to learn it.



I'm wondering a couple of things about the children you are teaching. First how old are they? I'm asking their ages because the expectations for discipline should not be exactly the same for children of all ages. It is okay to have high expectations for children of all ages, just make sure that what you expect is realistic for children of certain ages. Also, how many other after school commitments do they have? It sounds like they are very busy kids. Most kids today are way overscheduled. While I agree that at some point children should begin making more serious commitments to certain things, if they are young it may be too soon for them to be forced to choose. This may be something for their parents to help them to decide, or for you to discuss before accepting a new student. Also, there are lots of pressures on kids today both in and out of school. Sometimes they do need a day off from all the running around. If they came faithfully one day a week and listened and worked hard while they were in class, they may progress more slowly, but you would still be doing something worthwhile for them.



In terms of collecting payment, that might help your situation. If the parents value it the children might also value it more. Since the parents came to you for these lessons you need to clearly define what you expect from them and from their children. Because it is the parents who are asking for the lessons, it can present a problem in that it may be their desire for their children to learn and maybe not necessarily their child/childrens' desire. The only way you can figure that out is by talking to the children about it. If you are frustrated by their lack of commitment ask them direct questions like, "Why do you want to learn karate?" If they say things like because my mom or dad said I have to, than it is not something that they themselves have chosen to do and it will be more challenging for you as an instructor to motivate them.



I also think that it needs to be fun for them. This includes making them feel capable in what they are learning. For some just sitting still is a great accomplishment. This should be recognized. In others you will find the ideal student - one you don't have to get to the point where you feel you can "begin teaching". Even these students need to see you recognizing them. Don't over praise either - it won't mean as much, just try and find something they really are doing well, especially if it is something that was difficult for them to learn and let them know what you see.



Try and look at it from a different place. You are teaching them something from the first moment they walked through the door. It is so hard but try not to show your frustrations, and know that not all children (people for that matter) have the same capabilities. Discipline is important, but it will not be accepted or respected by the children if they are not also being made to feel capable, powerful, have choices in what they are doing, feel safe and free of ridicule and experience a sense of belonging in your school. We all like to do things that we feel we are good at. Help them to see the things they do well. Then they will accept the discipline more readily, because it will come from a place of mutual respect. They will accept the extra push-ups because they will begin to recognize appropriate behavior, especially when they have also experienced good feelings associated with praise from you for that good behavior.

I hope you don't give up! Please let us know how it is going.

MJ

 

[OC Kid]

Well heres a little more info. I bought them uniforms and they reimbursed me for them. I didnt push for the money and I sold them to the students for the same amount I bought them for at a school price. I also went out and bought them cups and I aquired the sparring gear. i went and bought a timer and a heavy bag/double ended bag, focus gloves and kicking shield for them to work out with.
I did talk to the parents when the last three who have missed first started about what expected from them.

But in all honesty I havent made it real fun for them. I make jokes in class ect. But they are just at the conditioning stage where I have them develope the muscles they are going to need. I keep them busy non stop in the class and work them pretty good. because I tell them that if they stay with it they will be doing things they never thought they could. I do praise them quite a bit. I also go to the soccer pracctice and games (my son is on the same team) and talk to each one, one on one just talking to them about things in general. BTW most of them miss the soccer practice most of the time and the coach really dont disipne them during the practice for coming late/ missing ect. I think any one practice most of the team dont show up. Im trying to get them to realize that they have to stick to there commitments.
One of the problems I see is that they hold the class back. If they miss a few lessons they I have to regress for them to catch up and It throws my lesson plan all off. That another thing how can I have a lesson plan when I dont know whos gonna be there if any one day to the next.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

First it seems that these kids are not used to being accountable. If their soccer coach does not teach them to value their commitment there, it probably is true of their other activities as well. It seems though that you do have a few who are making the commitment. That's great! Use that to your advantage to show the others what they could be achieving too. I understand not wanting to hold the rest of the class back for a few who don't commit, but if you have the time you could occasionally have a separate class for the more advanced students. It's a good thing to do anyway. You have choices here, but it may mean more of your time to catch them up before class begins or during class. Also it's a good idea to have your responsible committed student help with the others. It gives those students a sense of accomplishment and frees you up to work individually sometimes.



As far as the conditioning goes this can get boring, some will enjoy it and feel successful, but some kids won't see the value in it just yet. My daughter is being trained for competition gymnastics and she has spent the last eight months doing strength training at her gym and she's only seven and it's really hard work. She has stuck it out and loves it, but of the original group of sixteen kids only eight still remain. I think the coaches should have done a little more to make it fun, but ultimately if the kids don't see the value in it they will drop out.



The thing is in most schools there is a constant flow of new students and people who do not have experience often learn right alongside of the ones who do. The hardest part of trying to teach anything in a group setting is that they will be in different places and have different skill levels. Teach your lessons and they will get something from it; it may just take longer for some. Even committed students do not learn or grasp things at the same rate. Some people get their black belts in a few years and others will realize this goal in many.



Use that one on one time at the soccer practices to talk to them about karate and what you expect, or how you think they are doing. Keep the parents informed as well so they have more of an interest and will help you to promote it.



As far as the gis and all the things you've acquired...I think it's great that the parents paid for the gis and that you are willing to spend your own money on all of the gear, but I agree with Shinzu that if the kids are involved in the payment they will appreciate it a bit more. Have them do some work, within reason, to earn the new things for the school. They will appreciate it all the more and feel a true sense of belonging because of their contributions.



Good luck!
MJ

 

[mhouse]

My current instructor's instructor does a program similar to what you are talking about. He works a lot with at-risk youth. You may want to contact him. Here is his web site. Hope it helps.

www.duncansmartialarts.com

 

[MA-Caver]

upnorthkyosa wrote: I also teach disadvantaged/at-risk youth. A few things...
1. There families have no discipline so they will have none.

I'd have to partially disagree with this one. It's stereotyping the poor/disadvantaged (DA) by saying their families have no discipline. Yes true, that many of the DA's (parents) do tend to run into alcoholism, drug addiction, crime, petty and minor theft and so on... depends upon the neighborhood, inner cities... a higher chance, out in the boonies... not likely. But by and large many are just families who are struggling. The kids express the struggle by "acting-out" the frustration that Dad/Mom can't afford this or that, or however the stresses are revealed in their homes. But I will speak from personal experience from living with DA families, their homes are no less disciplined than a middle class or upper class family.

upnorthkyosa wrote:2. Pulling it together for three weeks is a major accomplishment for some.

Yes, yes it is and they should be respected for that.

upnorthkyosa wrote:3. Its hard to come to class when your mother pawned your uniform for crack (this happened on more then one occasion in my dojang)

Yes sad fact of inner-city life sometimes. But not always the case, depending upon where you live.

upnorthkyosa wrote:
4. "There are no free lunches" Make them pay. My students will mow my lawn paint my fence or rake my yard if they have no money. I also organize community service projects and trade attendence for dojang dues.

I think this is a great idea. At least they feel that they are earning what you are teaching them.
I teach vertical caving and am now starting on younger students (mostly before they were above 20 yrs old). I don't think I'll be charging them but since they're young and strong they can carry the ropes and gear up the hill to the cliffs...heh.

OC Kid, I think what you're doing is great, but since you are teaching for free then don't expect much. Whenever I teach (for free) I don't expect anything so I'm not disappointed. I agree with the others that it should be fun for them so that their attention span is longer and their enthusiasm for returning is better. They're just kids ya know :idunno: and they're poor. They may not be grateful NOW but later, chances are that they will be. You might not be around to hear their praise but so what! Are you doing it for THEM or for you?

Peace :asian:

 

[OC Kid]

Well I orginally started teaching my son. He is 10. he was having troubles with some older bullies on the soccer team. They were threatening him , trying to trip him and I talked to the coach to no avail . Did nothing so I started teaching him I told him not to fight. Then one of the bullies chased him around after practice trying to hit him. The only reason he didnt was because Johnny ran to one of the parents. So I gave him permission to fight and told the coach what happened and now be aware. So about 2 months after that one of the bullies after being egged on by the other one (and calling him names and trying to trip him during the soccer practice) walked up behind Johnny and tried to punch him. Johnny hit him with 2 defensive rears and followed up with 4 punches that left the kid bent over in the park tearing up.

Most of his soccer team saw what had happened. So the parents asked me to teach their kids (including the coaches). That how it all started. BTW the bullying has stopped <G> funny how that works huh?

Now I enjoy it and look forward to class. Im think about chargeing the parents a minimum fee maybe 10 bucks a week or 40 bucks a month (which is very cheap for this area as average is 80 - 90 on contract) or so for the ones who have been missing class. Ive also been considering just sending them to the McDojo or suspending them for a week or two. I will tell them why maybe that will burn a fire under them.

Also my wife is a latina from Mexico she tells me that this kind of behavior is common with their culture (thats where I learned the term palabras) though she isnt like that. She and some others are attending classes at the community center on the cultural differences between gringos and latins.

 

[Phoenix44]

A few questions, OC:

1. Where do you teach the kids? In your dojo? At their school? Out of your home?

2. Do you use any kind of reward or rank system, like stripes or belt colors?

3. Are you following a particular curriculum, where they learn "techniques," or are you just doing calisthenics?

 

[Flatlander]

Wow OC. Major Kudos for the effort. Imagine the feeling of accomplishment 10 or 20 years down the road, when you see these kids succeeding in life, and knowing that you helped them understand their own value. Don't give up dude. You can do this.

:asian:

 

[OC Kid]

"A few questions, OC:

1. Where do you teach the kids? In your dojo? At their school? Out of your home?

2. Do you use any kind of reward or rank system, like stripes or belt colors?

3. Are you following a particular curriculum, where they learn "techniques," or are you just doing calisthenics?"


I am running a complete system with belt ranks (if they stick around long enough to learn the basic techniques) They already participated in one test already.
It includes basics
forms (japanese)
self defense (kempo style)
fighting techniques (regular free style will move them into kick boxing when they're older)
and sparring.( Im starting them with points to learn control because they were banging each other out)
I am teaching my son weapons, the Bo to begin with. I am also profiecent with the escrima sticks and Tonfas and Sais.

well foks thats me inna nutshell..

I will start teaching them the staff also but they have to get theyre basics/ stances/ footwork ect down before.

I talked to one of the parents tonight. he said that the kids was sick. I said sick why when your daughter called to tell me he wasnt coming that he was going to LA. I called his house to talk to him and no one answered. Got a blank look from the parent. I asked about last week. He said Oh he was sick. I said he didnt come tuesday, played soccer on wensday didnt come thursday and went to the school carnival on friday.
Dad said Oh no he was sick. I said I talked to him. No answer... responded with Ill bring him tomorrow. I tod him well how come he dont come and Gilbert dont come also (best friends).. again blank stare.

Now comes the decision. Ask the kids why did they join the class (to learn is the standard response) . Why are they missing if they want to learn..(blank stares is usual) Then the stern warning and tell them not to miss anymore classes . They cant learn if they dont come. Then Im going to talk at them as individuals.

For those who here who seem to wonder about my creditials maybe I should tell a little about myself readers digest bio
Trained in Butokukan Karate (washington state Port Orchard Dojo) recieve my Black Belt in Sept. 1987.
Moved to Calif
Trained under Bob Whites Kempo karate Huntington Beach Calif for a number of years and fought in numerous tournaments.
I also trained in Todd Mc Elhennys (formerly Dick Willets school) American Kempo Katate and Kick Boxing for a number of years.
Trained in Muay Thai had a few fights
I am now ranked in United Butokukan System head quatered in San Diego Calif under John (Big T ) Turnage. So I have been around a little while.

I am now teaching at my home and I am starting to show up back at Bob Whites school again ( now that school is out I hope I can do it regularly)..

 

[Han-Mi]

Here are a couple of suggestions.

As for the free ride: Try making them do something that is just as good as money to you. For instance, they must clean the school, or participate in community service in order to get training for the month. This way , they are doing something for their lessons. Let them know that they have to do something that can be considered productive to the school or community in order to be trained for the month.

As for fun in training: make games, games can be conditioning too. Think back to when you were a kid, I bet you could run around playing tag for hours, but try to just run a mile. Tag is a game, you could run 5 miles and not be tired if you were doing it playing tag. I'm no just using tag as an analogy either, Our kids play TKD tag. Basically you have to tag the other person with your foot, and you have your hands behind your back. It conditions endurance, balance and muscle in the legs. One of my other favorite ways to make class fun is to do an obstacle course every now and then. One of the most simple ways to make it fun is to turn some of the excercises into a competition(i.e. time limit, time/# of push-ups/sit-ups/jumping jacks, most push-ups/sit-ups/jumping jacks). It does produce a loser, but if you talk it out right, the loser doesn't feel like a loser when it is over.

Let us all know how it turns out.

 

[MichiganTKD]

There is one student in my class who definitely has ADHD going on. Takes Ritalin, the whole deal. If I let him, he would run around, scream, be a total nuisance. However, there are some things he is good at. Forms and basics are not really two of them. But he does like doing jumping and flying techniques and is pretty good at them. He is also a 7 year old white belt.
My standard response to his behavior was to yell at him, make him do pushups, have him sit down. But sitting down just makes him bored, and pushups and yelling only makes him resentful.
I finally decided, instead of the stick, try the carrot. Instead of punishing him, offer to let him do the techniques he likes to do if he practices the techniques he must do. If he puts some effort into basics and forms, and I don't have to yell at him, he can do some of the jumping techniques. I wasn't looking for perfection, just effort.
It may be a while longer before he tests for yellow belt, but in the meantime he practices his white belt technique willingly a little bit at a time in exchange for being allowed to try the things he likes to do. Sounds like a fair tradeoff.
Every student, young or old, has their motivation, the things they like to do. For kids, find out what that motivation is. Kids being kids, they tend to have a lot of energy and want to run and jump. Jumping techniques are just the neatest thing, in addition to developing their muscles and bones. I have found that if they are allowed to practice these techniques IF they practice the required techniques first, it is a great motivator. Some kids love learning self defense, some kids like learning sparring drills. The principle is the same.
And above all, you must show that you care, which you obviously do because money isn't a factor to you. Quite a rarity in martial arts. Eventually they will realize how good they have it. Especially if they go to the McDojo down the road and realize they are paying $100/month for crap to an Instructor who could care less about them.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I finally decided, instead of the stick, try the carrot. Instead of punishing him, offer to let him do the techniques he likes to do if he practices the techniques he must do. If he puts some effort into basics and forms, and I don't have to yell at him, he can do some of the jumping techniques. I wasn't looking for perfection, just effort.
It may be a while longer before he tests for yellow belt, but in the meantime he practices his white belt technique willingly a little bit at a time in exchange for being allowed to try the things he likes to do. Sounds like a fair tradeoff.
Every student, young or old, has their motivation, the things they like to do. For kids, find out what that motivation is.

Michigan TDK,

This is great stuff you figured out here. What you are actually doing for this child is helping him to develop inner discipline by teaching him to appreciate delayed gratification. In this case the gratification being doing the things he loves best. This is a great way to handle a child with ADHD. If he is on medication chances are, as sometimes happens, he may come off of the meds during after school time - making your job all the more difficult. The positive approach is always preferred and it sounds like you're doing great job. It's wonderful that you did not give up on this child, because children with special needs such as ADHD need the benefit of learning self control, yelling at a child with ADHD, as you've found, is not the answer. These children need to learn through consistency, and unlike other children, they often need to be taught simple social skills that are taken for granted in other children. Things like sitting in their place and not talking out can present a challenge for this type of child. They need to be taught these things and constantly gently reminded. It's much more work on your part, but the rewards are greater as well. Martial Arts training that have a positive approach such as you have found in the long run will benefit the ADHD child most in terms of how it affects their daily living. The impact goes way beyond learning self defense.

MJ :asian: