Different advice

[Kickboxer101]

Okay this Is something I've noticed quite a bit since I restarted kenpo just before Christmas after not doing for 5 years. But in my club most of the club are high level belts. The head instructors a 7th dan, the 2nd in command is a 4th, there's 2 third dans, a first dan and a second dan. Not all these guys graded under the head instructor but have all been in it for a long time.

But anyway I've noticed it's all the same style but it seems everyone's got a different way of doing it. For example one instructor will teach say delayed sword one way and the next day another one will teach me differently. On one hand that's good because I'm getting shown different ways to adapt the technique but on the other hand it does get confusing but what I've decided to do is just try each different way find the one that works best for me and stick with that way. That's the good thing about kenpo you can have your own way of doing it as long as you can explain why you do it that way

 

[Ironbear24]

Okay this Is something I've noticed quite a bit since I restarted kenpo just before Christmas after not doing for 5 years. But in my club most of the club are high level belts. The head instructors a 7th dan, the 2nd in command is a 4th, there's 2 third dans, a first dan and a second dan. Not all these guys graded under the head instructor but have all been in it for a long time.

But anyway I've noticed it's all the same style but it seems everyone's got a different way of doing it. For example one instructor will teach say delayed sword one way and the next day another one will teach me differently. On one hand that's good because I'm getting shown different ways to adapt the technique but on the other hand it does get confusing but what I've decided to do is just try each different way find the one that works best for me and stick with that way. That's the good thing about kenpo you can have your own way of doing it as long as you can explain why you do it that way

No two karateka are the same, this is no different when it comes to instructors, we all have our way of doing techniques and our own preferred methods of fighting. For example I use a lot of kicks and for kenpo that is almost unheard of.

In what I train in which is heavily influenced by kenpo we are taught by a family which consists of the father his son and his daughter. They all have their own variations of how things are done. Some of us are taught almost exclusively by one of the three and therefore learn it their way. I myself get most of my instructions through the dad and his son so sometimes I wrestle between the two ways.

 

[Flying Crane]

What aspects are different?

If the underlying principles are being taught differently from one teacher to the next, or are being neglected, that is a real problem.

If it is a matter of choreography that otherwise makes sense, that is less of a problem although the inconsistency would be annoying and it's not good if it causes actual confusion over how the material is expected to be done. If those expectations are lose and room for interpretation is accepted, then it's no big deal.

 

[Kickboxer101]

What aspects are different?

If the underlying principles are being taught differently from one teacher to the next, or are being neglected, that is a real problem.

If it is a matter of choreography that otherwise makes sense, that is less of a problem although the inconsistency would be annoying and it's not good if it causes actual confusion over how the material is expected to be done. If those expectations are lose and room for interpretation is accepted, then it's no big deal.

It's not hugely a big deal like for example one guy may say it's a back knuckle to the head and another will say it's a hammer fist to the head.

It's not a big deal but it's just a bit of a pain when one guy teaches you something so you change what your doing for that then next lesson another tells you to do it a different way and it makes you feel like you're doing it wrong even though that's the way you were just shown a couple days ago

 

[marques]

I think different advice is not good for beginners. They (or we) struggle even to understand one way. Different opinions are too confusing.

On the other hand, it is great for advanced people. They will understand that one variation is safer, faster or powerful than another (not simply better or worst), or they will associate the variation with the body type or the personality of the performer... and understand much better martial arts and people.

 

[Kickboxer101]

I think different advice is not good for beginners. They (or we) struggle even to understand one way. Different opinions are too confusing.

On the other hand, it is great for advanced people. They will understand that one variation is safer, faster or powerful than another (not simply better or worst), or they will associate the variation with the body type or the personality of the performer... and understand much better martial arts and people.

Well I think most of the beginner stuff is always taught the exact same way as there's simply not many variations you can really do with those without completely changing the base technique but the higher levels can be more open to little changes. Since I haven't trained there since I was a beginner and the club doesn't have beginners right now I can't comment on that but I'm a 1st degree brown belt (1 before black) its not a problem also what I do is after each lesson I write down everything I can remember being told that lesson so when I go to practice myself I have a log of what I've been told to improve and if I find contradicting stuff I practice both ways and if in a test or even a proper fight I need to use it whichever one just happens naturaly is what I'll use. That's happened before 1 time I did a technique the 1 way I was showed the next time I did it the other just on instinct.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It's not hugely a big deal like for example one guy may say it's a back knuckle to the head and another will say it's a hammer fist to the head.

It's not a big deal but it's just a bit of a pain when one guy teaches you something so you change what your doing for that then next lesson another tells you to do it a different way and it makes you feel like you're doing it wrong even though that's the way you were just shown a couple days ago

Actually, that is a big deal, from the standpoint of curriculum. You're graded on this material. If you do it the way Mr Backfist said, when Mr Hammerfist is grading, you hurt yourself. Enough discrepancies and you do not pass.

Now, from a strictly application standpoint, I do not think it matters and you should be learning both (and probably more) ways of applying the technique. Because all techniques should be as flexible and adaptable to specific circumstances as possible. But the basic technique should be taught the same way by all instructors.

My suggestion is that whenever there is a discrepancy, you consult with the highest authority. Go to the head instructor and tell him "I'm being shown this technique in different ways by different instructors. Which is correct?" Then practice it that way, bearing in mind that in application you might modify it in any number of ways to account for varying distances, body positions, angles, etc.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Actually, that is a big deal, from the standpoint of curriculum. You're graded on this material. If you do it the way Mr Backfist said, when Mr Hammerfist is grading, you hurt yourself. Enough discrepancies and you do not pass.

Now, from a strictly application standpoint, I do not think it matters and you should be learning both (and probably more) ways of applying the technique. Because all techniques should be as flexible and adaptable to specific circumstances as possible. But the basic technique should be taught the same way by all instructors.

My suggestion is that whenever there is a discrepancy, you consult with the highest authority. Go to the head instructor and tell him "I'm being shown this technique in different ways by different instructors. Which is correct?" Then practice it that way, bearing in mind that in application you might modify it in any number of ways to account for varying distances, body positions, angles, etc.

Well it wouldn't be a problem as both would be on the panel and that is the thing with kenpo the way I was told from my old instructor is as long as the base is correct and if asked you can explain why you're doing it that way it won't go against you in the test obviously if you do it completely wrong then it will go against but what I've been told is the worst thing you can do in a test when doing self defence techniques is just freeze and do nothing

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well it wouldn't be a problem as both would be on the panel and that is the thing with kenpo the way I was told from my old instructor is as long as the base is correct and if asked you can explain why you're doing it that way it won't go against you in the test obviously if you do it completely wrong then it will go against but what I've been told is the worst thing you can do in a test when doing self defence techniques is just freeze and do nothing

OK, but which is the base; the backfist or the hammer fist? If you don't know, your base cannot be right...

 

[Kickboxer101]

OK, but which is the base; the backfist or the hammer fist? If you don't know, your base cannot be right...

That was just an example I gave to make the point of how it was I can't think of a proper one off the top of my head right now

 

[marques]

Well I think most of the beginner stuff is always taught the exact same way as there's simply not many variations you can really do with those without completely changing the base technique but the higher levels can be more open to little changes.

I hope most of the beginners stuff is teached the same way. But sometimes there is no beginners class...

Or, as happened to me, the beginner class had a different instructor each day (perhaps 6 for 3 beginner classes a week). And often different people show things a bit different, or omit some step for simplicity, or teach the 'same' combination in a slightly different way... Very innocent differences that makes the student confused (it happened to me and my partners).

 

[JP3]

I've encountered this problem. Long story short, when in class with a teacher, do it the way That teacher is asking you to do it. In between class times, think on the different ways one teacher taught the skill vs. another teacher and compare them for yourself. After a time you'll find yourself gravitating towards one way or the other, which is fine. People are different, though in a well-conceived MA there underlying constants and principles, how those get expressed is an individual thing.

 

[Kickboxer101]

I've encountered this problem. Long story short, when in class with a teacher, do it the way That teacher is asking you to do it. In between class times, think on the different ways one teacher taught the skill vs. another teacher and compare them for yourself. After a time you'll find yourself gravitating towards one way or the other, which is fine. People are different, though in a well-conceived MA there underlying constants and principles, how those get expressed is an individual thing.

Yeah pretty much what I do. It's not even a problem really it doesn't affect me and I don't worry about it or anything I just do what I do and if it gets corrected or told a different then hey cool I've learnt another variation. I was just wondering what the opinions were

 

[Kickboxer101]

I hope most of the beginners stuff is teached the same way. But sometimes there is no beginners class...

Or, as happened to me, the beginner class had a different instructor each day (perhaps 6 for 3 beginner classes a week). And often different people show things a bit different, or omit some step for simplicity, or teach the 'same' combination in a slightly different way... Very innocent differences that makes the student confused (it happened to me and my partners).

yeah there's no beginners class in my place either and there wasn't in my old one. All ranks are in the same class and when they're learning they just break off into groups with the different instructors

 

[marques]

yeah there's no beginners class in my place either and there wasn't in my old one. All ranks are in the same class and when they're learning they just break off into groups with the different instructors

That is a good thing I have only seen in some seminairs. Anyway, there is no beginners in your place. You are blessed having several different examples.

 

[Kickboxer101]

That is a good thing I have only seen in some seminairs. Anyway, there is no beginners in your place. You are blessed having several different examples.

Yeah our clubs not a big one at all and I reckon the head instructor ends up losing more money than he makes and probably has pay out his own pocket for the rent for the hall but that's good because it shows they genuinely care about doing martial arts and not just making money

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Okay this Is something I've noticed quite a bit since I restarted kenpo just before Christmas after not doing for 5 years. But in my club most of the club are high level belts. The head instructors a 7th dan, the 2nd in command is a 4th, there's 2 third dans, a first dan and a second dan. Not all these guys graded under the head instructor but have all been in it for a long time.

But anyway I've noticed it's all the same style but it seems everyone's got a different way of doing it. For example one instructor will teach say delayed sword one way and the next day another one will teach me differently. On one hand that's good because I'm getting shown different ways to adapt the technique but on the other hand it does get confusing but what I've decided to do is just try each different way find the one that works best for me and stick with that way. That's the good thing about kenpo you can have your own way of doing it as long as you can explain why you do it that way

Here's my take on this. When I taught at my primary instructor's dojo, I taught his version of NGA. I used some different language than he did, but I made sure nothing I taught would conflict with anything he taught, so folks wouldn't get confused. My job was to help students, and since they were going to be tested by the CI, and would likely get instruction from either the CI or another of the associate instructors, I wanted to keep things consistent for them.

I only varied from that approach with more advanced students. To me, this mostly meant when teaching black belts and black belt candidates (or someone of a lower rank who was starting to dig into the principles). For these folks, getting another perspective on a technique or principle is helpful. For folks just learning those techniques and principles, another perspective is confusing.

Now I teach my perspective. If I ever bring on an associate instructor, I'll explain to them this same approach.

 

[Touch Of Death]

As a kenpoist, I have been exposed to several different methods of gaining speed, and power, They don't mix.

 

[Buka]

I think it's a wonderful thing.

 

[JP3]

Here's an interesting anecdote on this issue that happened at my place at the end of last year.

I have this instructor, let's call him Randy because that's his name, who outranks me by one degree who likes to drop in and play and teach about 1 time per month or so, as his job (the remnants of NASA) have him on rotating shift work and he can only make it that often. I very much respect this guy's input in the aikido arena, as he was in the dojo on my very first day starting to train in the Tomiki Aikido, and worked with me on ukemi, changing my rough judo stuff into the cleaner, less-impactful aikido falling techniques. He's got a good eye, and a good mind for communicating what may or may not be happening, and his grasp of the underlying principles is a bit better than my own, even after 20 years. I guess, that's the benefit of doing it for 35? Probably. He's had to put up with my own internal struggles to convert hapkido into aikido, which is fun, but not easy. ("Why can't I just punch him in the face right here I know that's not what we're trying to learn, but there's his face, and I've got a free hand and everything...") BTW, I did learn that, later on, you CAN and SHOULD punch him in the face if you've the free hand... but that's another story. I think I almost gave those guys strokes having to deal with my questions. Nice guys, to put up with it.

Anyway, this story...

Randy and I are teaching a couple of lower level black belts a portion of one of the advanced (read older) kata, doing work with weapons. For those who care to look it up, it's Koryu dai san, and we were working in the "Defensive sword," portion, where uke has the katana (boken, actually of course when learning) and tori is open hands only. The very first technique of this... set, we'll call it, is a timing/blending/spacing learning tool. It looks neat, as well, but that's not the point. Uke comes in with the sword, showmen cut (overhead straight down the middle), best to not be in the attack line any longer. To put the cookies on the bottom shelf so I can get on with the story, tori, as good guy, so as to not be neatly divided into symmetric halves, evades the cut, moving in (timing), does a very simple hnd placement block of sorts (distance), completes his turn and throws uke forward (blending) and in the process, when done right, the triggering of the falling reflex open's uke's hands and tori ends up with the sword. It really is amazing, when you first do it right after trying to do it about a thousand times and failing.

Here's the thing. It's MY school, and Randy just keeps himself back out of the main instructor role, so I'm actually running the class (between 8-10 folks). When Randy is there, I am certainly going to take advantage of his experience (as well as of his eyesight, which is way better than my own, so I use that), so I always ask him to work with my 4D and 2D guys, who are working on San kata. I'll take everyone else and keep them working on their stuff. So, Randy takes those guys and they start swinging swords, which looks pretty cool, so I have to continually redirect the attention of the white/green/brown belts back onto their own stuff like a Pre-K teacher when a policeman on a horse goes by the classroom.

Class is moving forward, people are learning to walk and fall, when to walk and when to fall, listening to my admonishments about when to run away, etc. Meanwhile, swish-slash continues for a bit, then that stops and a conversation develops amongst 2D 4D & Randy. Randy, as he does from time to time, forgets that it's MY school, and he just says, "John, I need you to do the 1st sword technique defense from San kata so we can watch something." Sure, no problem. Well, except for the approximate 18 months of rust that's accumulated since the last time I demonstrated this particular skill. Thanks, Randy. I now hear that all movement behind me in the white/green/brown ranks has ceased. Great, now everyone's watching. Neat-O! No pressure.

Next bit o fun is I note that it's Mr. 4th dan who has the boken. This is Scott. Let me tell you about Scott. Scott is 6'8" (2.03m), and he weighs in at a svelte 270 lbs (122.5 kg). THAT is what is coming at me, grinning with some sort of negative intent with what I am certain he is imagining as a red lightsaber.

Ah well, this is what you sign up for, right? Remind me sometime to write the story about "How the body can not distinguish a difference between an adrenaline dump caused by fear of death vs. fear of overwhelming & imminent embarrassment." It's a good one.

Long story short (already messed that up I know), Scott comes in, trying to divide me longitudinally at the median. That sort of thing has always caused me to focus, so I let go, get the hell out of the way and DO. Scott, surprising everyone including me, ends up across the dojo. Cool, I can still do kata.

All Randy says is, "Huh."

I'm like (in my head only) "That's all I get? Just... huh."

2D who'd been watching closely, says "He didn't do it the way you said." Randy grunts.

Scott, getting up, says "It felt fine. Worked anyway and didn't feel forced." Good man, that Scott.

So, I'm forced to ask, "What?" Well we go off into a barrage of aikido talk I won't bore you non-believers with, but it was funny. It boiled down to I opened up the technique with exactly the opposite action of hand that Randy was telling 2d to use. I mean "opposite," as Randy's method was, to be simple, hpalm down, and I come in palm up. He had reasons for coming in palm down, and they are based in the posture-principles, and I thought that right. We replayed what I did slowly, and he asked me to explain hy I came in the way I do, palm up, which was based in fundamentals we talk about all the time in basic movement, i.e. walking. Also correct, Randy thought. My way helps me compensate for my low vision as well.

So, there you go. At least anecdotatally, the above is proof that there is more than one way to "correct." Or, more than 1 way to skin a cat, though I don't know why anyone would want to do that, it be really loud and messy.

We have lots of sayings for this. All roads lead to Rome. There are many paths to Mecca. The cat skinning thing above, whatever. I think that the problem arises in practice when instructors are teaching things which, on their face "appear" to be different from one person's expression to another. This leads beginners, who have no knowledge base with which to compare, into the Land of Confusion. That's a frustrating place to be. I like Gerry's plan above, which is very similar to what I do at my place. I tell people they can learn any variations they want, "But when it is rank demonstration time, I will want to see you do it This Way, as that way indicates competence with a certain underlying thing I am watching to see if you can show me."