Differences between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan?

[pknox]

As we seem to have some members that represent both approaches, I'd love to see some comparisons made between the two orgs, reflecting their approach to techniques, philosophy, ranking methodology, or whatever else comes to mind.

 

[Deaf]

Even thought both arts are similar since SKH is basically taking what he learned within the Bujinkan and "distilling" it to be more effective in todays world (his words, not mine nor my belief) there are some differences in their approach in both mental aspects and physical aspects.

A quick note:

When I compared to the Bujinkan, I am comparing to my knowledge of what I have been taught. This in NO WAY means that every shidoshi, shihan or Soke teach it this way or that way or emphasize this over that. These opinions are my own and my personal observations only. So please keep that in mind when I discuss within this thread.


In ToShinDo it is my belief that they do not stress kamae as much as the Bujinkan does. Now each instructor within the Bujinkan has their own way of teaching kamae however from my observances, they all have similarities and observe the crucial "core philosopy" of the kamaes.

When in ToShinDo, kamae was mainly taught as a "mindset" or "feeling"...Ichimonji No Kamae was not "Ichimonji No Kamae" but "Water Position" a receiving posture. Here in Bujinkan land, ichimonji no kamae is ichimonji no kamae. Now some shidoshi will teach a certain "mindset" or "feeling" associated with the kamae and some will simply tell you that the kamae is just a posture that you take up going from one technique to another etc.

I do not remember any lessons where we have specifically gone over kamae once in ToShinDo. However in the Bujinkan (at least in the lower ranks) it is stressed daily.

Another difference, at least from what I have learned from some friends at the ToShinDo Hombu, is that weapons are not longer taught within the cirriculum. You actually have to join their Black Belt Club (they have a special 45 minute class once a month where they might go over weapons) or join their Shadow of Iga program where they claim they teach traditional Bujinkan (I cannot verify nor deny this). Now from about 90% of all Bujinkan that I have seen, weapons are an important part of the cirriculum starting with hanbo, bo and sword. (I'm sure this varies from shidoshi to shidoshi as well).

From my viewpoint, ToShinDo really stresses more of a mental preparation type training than physical. Due to their stressing how to "react" during a confrontation type drills.

Just a few samples which I hope helps out a bit.

Remember, these opinions and/or comments are in no way intended to talk bad about SKH nor his ToShinDo system. It is just a comparision between his system that I have seen and trained with compared with my current knowledge and training in the Bujinkan. The best way that you can really find out is to try both styles for yourself and then form your own opinion about them.

Deaf

 

[FL-Mac]

When in ToShinDo, kamae was mainly taught as a "mindset" or "feeling"...Ichimonji No Kamae was not "Ichimonji No Kamae" but "Water Position" a receiving posture. Here in Bujinkan land, ichimonji no kamae is ichimonji no kamae. Now some shidoshi will teach a certain "mindset" or "feeling" associated with the kamae and some will simply tell you that the kamae is just a posture that you take up going from one technique to another etc.

I do not remember any lessons where we have specifically gone over kamae once in ToShinDo. However in the Bujinkan (at least in the lower ranks) it is stressed daily.

I'm just getting started with To Shin Do and have no experience in other MAs, but here's what I know.

In my particular level, I hear "earth posture" more often than "shizen no kamae" (which doesn't exactly translate to "earth posture" if I translate correctly ... more like "natural"?), but the Shidoshi will occasionally use the Japanese. It is described as a mindset, but one with specific physical attributes. We've never specifically devoted a class to it, but it's gone over in just about every class. I do remember that one of the trainers explained it to me one-on-one in one of my first classes (if not the first one). Also, I don't think it's exactly like the shizen no kamae of Bunjinkan. From what I've seen searching the web, in Bunjinkan your hands are at your sides. In To Shin Do your hands are up in front of you. Otherwise, it looks very similar.

In the upper classes, the instructor uses the Japanese terms more often. Usually it will be called a "street" ichimonji (or whatever), though ... not the pure traditional form. This makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, if someone's picking a fight and you move into a traditional hira no kamae they're gonna think that you're nuts ... or up to something. No need to get their guard up.

Although I'm not involved in the program, the dojo offers something called "Shadow Warriors" ... I think that this would be more akin to traditional Bunjinkan. But before I get flamed to death, I'm not involved in either, so I honestly don't know. The word "Bunjinkan" has not come up in my experience at the dojo.

Now, hopefully I'm not getting into politics here, but as I understand it To Shin Do is not Bunjinkan, but is fairly closely related. The principles of Bunjinkan applied specifically to modern threats. Not to say either is better or more effective.

Anyways, that's my understanding. I might actually be totally off the mark, if so please correct me. Like I said, I'm just getting started in all this.

-Mac

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

http://www.bujinkan-france.net/bjk/article.php3?id_article=133

And it's BUJINkan.:asian: But you can ignore that part about not moving before your opponent does, because that's the point of what the author often refers to as yugen no seikai.

 

[FL-Mac]

And it's BUJINkan.

Very sorry, rookie mistake. Interesting link.

 

[Cryozombie]

FL-Mac,

Welcome aboard!

Feel free to read, post, read and post, etc etc... don't worry about making stupid mistakes, esp spelling errors. We all do it from time to time...

No one will hurt you too bad for it.

 

[Gina]

I guess one reason that the Kamae are different in TO-SHIN DO to Bujinkan is due to the fact that Bujinkan emphasises a more traditional training approach, where as TO-SHIN DO is more geared to todays western society

In the old days of feudal Japan when you took up a kamae, be it Ichimonji, Jumonji etc, you knew it was a fight and so did your enemy. Your enemy may have a sword raised ready to cut you down, or be armed with some other weapon, but whatever, his intention was to kill or at least seriously hurt you. You lived in a violent society where self defence was an everyday thing. There was little if any chance of calming your enemy down and being able to walk away, and whether you lived or died depended very much on how good you were at defending yourself, which sometimes meant killing your opponent.

Today our society thankfully, is completely changed. No longer are there people wandering around with the right to kill you or your family on a whim. And of course we also have various laws that state that we must use reasonable force to defend ourselves.
Therefore if we are attacked, unlike in the old days when we might cut our enemy down with a sword, we might first try to deescalate the violence. Sure I might still want to take up a kamae for safety sake, but I don't want a kamae where my opponent might perceive it as being threatening. I might take up an ichimonji, but my front and rear hand might be open, to put over the message 'stay back' or 'calm down' and I might actually be saying something like 'I really don't want to fight you. You go your way and i'll go mine and lets forget this whole thing'.
Sure if suddenly my opponent throws a punch or kick I can still defend as I am technically in ichimonji no kamae.

Can you imagine an incident where I have had to defend myself and its caught on CCTV and the case goes to court. Using the Bujinkan style classical kamae could be construed as me wanting to fight because i have taken up this martial arts posture, where as if I keep my hands open it looks like I actually don't want to fight. Interestingly in the UK police this type of open handed ichimonji is taught to police officers to deescalate confrontational situations.

So is the classical Kamae taught in TO-SHIN DO?
I guess from a beginners point of view the ideas of the godai are emphasised as well as the non classical kamae. This of course does not mean that An Shu Hayes does'nt teach classical kamae any more. From black belt, techniques of Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu etc are taught, and indeed some of these are demonstrated on the TO-SHIN DO DVD sets for comparison with the more modern adaptions.

In the UK Northampton dojo, The TO-SHIN DO kamae are taught for beginners, but sometimes the classical kamae are demonstrated so that the student can understand where the kamae developed from, and to give them an understanding of this great legacy we are all part of.

 

[Don Roley]

I guess one reason that the Kamae are different in TO-SHIN DO to Bujinkan is due to the fact that Bujinkan emphasises a more traditional training approach, where as TO-SHIN DO is more geared to todays western society

Wrong.

Have you ever met Hatsumi? I mean talked to him, trained with him and shared tea with him? I have trained with Hayes, talked with Hayes and been a member of his orginization. Can you say the same about the leader of the orginization you have just made such a sweeping generalization about?

In the Bujinkan I train in here in Japan, we emphisize learning the lessons of the past in order to apply those lessons to the future. We learn the way things were done, the reasons they were done the way they were and then try to apply those lessons to the realities we see around us. I apply things to the reality that I have been exposed to and expect to encounter. In other words, I take what I learn about things like hoko no kamae and think about what the legal aspect of being in it based on what I know of the realities of my home country. Today I have trained in both pistol and rifle, as well as things to help me legally in the case of me meeting violence.

I do not want to speak ill of Hayes or see a war between the Bujinkan or the people that have choosen to follow Hayes instead. But I cannot be the only person to see the mistake you have written and see that there is a subtle insult implied in what you wrote above about the Bujinkan.

I do not train for tradition's sake. I learn what has gone before to apply those lessons to the present. I have learned far more than I think you ever will and I do not forgive those that tear down those that I respect just to build themselves up. I ask you again, have you ever shared tea with Hatsumi and trained with him in Japan? If not, then I advise you refrain from the generalizations you have said about the course he wishes his orginization to take or I will not be the only one to counter you.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I guess one reason that the Kamae are different in TO-SHIN DO to Bujinkan is due to the fact that Bujinkan emphasises a more traditional training approach, where as TO-SHIN DO is more geared to todays western society

Who told you?

There was little if any chance of calming your enemy down and being able to walk away,

Ever heard about Tsukahara Bokuden and the bragging swordsman on the boat?

Sure I might still want to take up a kamae for safety sake, but I don't want a kamae where my opponent might perceive it as being threatening. I might take up an ichimonji, but my front and rear hand might be open, to put over the message 'stay back' or 'calm down' and I might actually be saying something like 'I really don't want to fight you. You go your way and i'll go mine and lets forget this whole thing'.

What if I told you that kamae is a principle thing more than a technique thing?

 

[Satt]

Wrong.

Don, I will never get bored reading posts while you are still here. LOL. It is nice to see you here still.

Jason

 

[Cryozombie]

Can you imagine an incident where I have had to defend myself and its caught on CCTV and the case goes to court. Using the Bujinkan style classical kamae could be construed as me wanting to fight because i have taken up this martial arts posture, where as if I keep my hands open it looks like I actually don't want to fight. Interestingly in the UK police this type of open handed ichimonji is taught to police officers to deescalate confrontational situations.

I think you mistake the use of Kamae in the arts as well... Kamae are "transitional" stances, not somthing you assume at the start of a fight. (Unless you are doing somthing like you described, such as putting on airs of "deescalation") Most fights will begin with you in a "neutral" stance... Guest instructors from japan have come to my school a we are being taught now to assume a "stance" that is slightly bent and the knees and a bit forward, in an almost "relaxed old west gunfighter" position... ready to react, but to the casual observer, just standing there.

 

[Gina]

I am glad that so many people here on the web understand that the classical techniques, kamae etc can be used in a more conventional way today in the 21st century. And to be honest this is probably because you guys have some years of experience with this art. But from a beginners point of view, and remember we are talking about beginners, some one new into the art never having tasted ninjutsu and is completely unaware of who Dr Hatsumi is, it is good to teach them something that they can immediately relate to, as opposed to the traditional kamae seen in other dojos.
Many of our students work in the health profession and as such can immediately identify with the type of kamae used in the beginning stages of TO-SHIN DO.
Sure we show the traditional kamae too, but morally we feel we must teach what is legal, and frankly to teach a new beginner say Jumonji in his first few lessons and then having to use it on the street may get him into trouble, as it could be interpreted as being aggressive, and instead of being able to deescalate the incident, it could actually enflame it.
And yes I know that kamae are transitional things and actually techniques in themselves, but we can explain that to students latter, not in lesson 1. Let them get the basics first before we complicate matters.
As for Ninravus and the Bokuden thing, well any one knows that feudal Japan was more violent than todays western world, so what point is he trying to make.
Is the UK or USA in the middle of a civil war where thousands are being killed on the battle field, do we have men walking around that have the right to kill you and your family with no retribution, can the local lord burn down your village? Yes the 21st century may not be one of peace, but at least today unlike the feudal age peasant, we have rights, freedoms and safety.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

some one new into the art never having tasted ninjutsu and is completely unaware of who Dr Hatsumi is, it is good to teach them something that they can immediately relate to,

...which, I can assure you, is not ninjutsu.

Sure we show the traditional kamae too, but morally we feel we must teach what is legal, and frankly to teach a new beginner say Jumonji in his first few lessons and then having to use it on the street may get him into trouble, as it could be interpreted as being aggressive, and instead of being able to deescalate the incident, it could actually enflame it.

And Cho Gyokko wept...:uhohh::wah:
No offense but that was the most ridiculous thing I have heard since I don't know when. I'm going to try again - what if I told you that kamae are a principle thing more than a technique thing?

As for Ninravus and the Bokuden thing, well any one knows that feudal Japan was more violent than todays western world, so what point is he trying to make.

Well, for the historical proponents of the Takagi Yoshin ryu for example, killing someone or drawing blood at the wrong place could lead to far less merciful repercussions than a jail sentence...

Is the UK or USA

Don't want to burst anone's bubble here, but there are more places on this planet where the Bujinkan teachings help people out actively...

 

[Don Roley]

I am glad that so many people here on the web understand that the classical techniques, kamae etc can be used in a more conventional way today in the 21st century. And to be honest this is probably because you guys have some years of experience with this art. But from a beginners point of view, and remember we are talking about beginners, some one new into the art never having tasted ninjutsu and is completely unaware of who Dr Hatsumi is, it is good to teach them something that they can immediately relate to, as opposed to the traditional kamae seen in other dojos.

You really have no knowledge at all about what goes on in Bujinkan training, do you? Your broad, sweeping, false generalizations are going to irritate many Bujinkan people and cause them to attack you. We do not like flame wars here. Please stop playing with matches and get some knowledge of the subject matter (i.e. Bujinkan) before you talk about it as if you were knowledgeable.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

[donning asbestos underwear] I'm guessing those "false generalizations" and misconceptions may have come from TSD-taught propaganda against the Bujinkan in order to justify why things are done differently . . . but then I am one to believe in all sorts of ridiculous conspiracy theories.

 

[Cryozombie]

Ladies and Gentelmen, this thread has the potential to become heated, lets all remember to remain calm, and keep things informative and impersonal.

As I have been a participant in this thread, I'm saying this as a member, not a moderator, so lets all take this to heart so I dont have to get an outside mod involved.

Thanks!

 

[saru1968]

problems? always there are two..your side and my side!



There will always be problems when a person from A-Group passes comment on person for B-Group.



Basically its only appropriate to do so if person making the comments has EQUAL experience from BOTH groups.

Otherwise it will always be 'mines better than yours!'

In no way meaning to inflame this situation and being extremley tired after my baby daughters been up on the hour ever hour through the night for the last week.

Hatsumi Sensei teaches Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, he taught( and still does) Stephen Hayes this art, Steven Hayes 'modernised' it for todays society.

He was(is) taught by Hatsumi Sensei, and although his new system is called 'x' the 'copyright' to this knowledge is Hatsumi's, Regardless of a 'we adopt a more 21st century' approach,if you had equal knowledge in BOTH arts your would understand that this 'new' art was formed through Hatsumi's 'copyright'.

Hope that makes sense, my head hurts, I'm off to bed, only another hour b4 she wakes up, again!

Gary

 

[Cryozombie]

Steven Hayes 'modernised' it for todays society.

THIS is the difference between the two arts that I dont understand.

WHAT is modernized?

Did he replace Eggshell Metsubishi training with Mace? Shuriken with, CDs? What?

Ive heard it said that the "Modernization" is in how the attacker throws punches and you respond... but again, that escapes me... because the techniques in the Bujinkan (the "source" as it were of Toshindo) are not techniques... its not "Attacker Does Straight Punch you counter with ABCKata" you learn them, sure, but to teach you... how not to use a technique but to respond... I cant explain it, but some of the others here surely could, like Don, Kizaru, Nimravus or Dale and some others...

So "how" an attacker attacks you is really of little consequence, IMO, unless you are striving to learn "ABCKATA" to use it in a fight, and if so, and that is your goal, isnt an art like TaeKwando better suited for that?

Or is THAT the modernization? Removal of the "lack of technique" for a set of specific responses that you use: Attacker Throws Technique A you always counter with Technique Q.

I really cannot wrap my head around the "modernization" concept... perhaps a ToShinDo guy could explain it to me better...

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Reminds me of a funny episode that took place around the first few months of last year...after our usual warmup procedure our instructor said "all right, everyone practice omote gyaku" without giving any kind of instructions. So we did what he requested - or so we thought. After a while, he commented "hey, I said omote gyaku, let's see some variation people!" To which I responded "but you told us to do omote gyaku, so we're doing omote gyaku...?"

And he said "that's right, but I never said omote kote gyaku".

:wavey:

 

[Don Roley]

THIS is the difference between the two arts that I dont understand.

WHAT is modernized?

Well, for a start he has added in some aspects of armored assailent training he learned from Peytonn Quinn. I have trained with Quinn and respect what he does very much. His web site with a description can be found at www.rmcat.com.

The suits that he and Hayes use (actually- Hayes uses a modified version that is not as effective due IIRC to some copyright problems) could not be made prior to plastic and foam rubber. It lets the training be run in a scenario type situation with the emphisis on adding stress to the training. It seems that training while under stress is the most sure way of being able to access those skills under real, stressfull, combat.

Traditionally, this type of stress training was filled by kata practice. Kata were not only the means to learn techniques, but also were fairly dangerous and stressfull ways of ingraining skills. However, they require that the teacher working out with the student have the type of knowledge of their abilites and what they can take that only comes from long, close association. For Hayes and most teachers, this is not possible. For Hayes to try to teach the way he was originally taught in Japan during the rough days of the Bujinkan he would have to give up all his studios and limit himself to a handfull of long term students.

So since he cannot give that type of training at the many seminars he gives, I think that his choice of using the armored suits is a good one well suited for the modern training situation. As you pointed out, the dynamics of things really do not change. But you have to take into consideration how the training situation CAN'T be replicated unless you are willing to make Americans train just like the Japanese did- and probably get a damn good legal team as well. I sometimes do have training sessions that fill the stress requirement here in Japan and I think it is more effective than using the armor. But I can't think of a way I could pull of doing it with the typical American martial artist if and when I move back to the states.