Differences between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan?

[Kizaru]

THIS is the difference between the two arts that I dont understand.

WHAT is modernized?

In addition to what Don Roley has written, I'd say the method of marketing has been modernized as well.

For Hayes to try to teach the way he was originally taught in Japan during the rough days of the Bujinkan he would have to give up all his studios and limit himself to a handfull of long term students. ..make Americans train just like the Japanese did- and probably get a damn good legal team as well.

I couldn't agree more.

I sometimes do have training sessions that fill the stress requirement here in Japan ...

Yeah? Like, with who?

...and I think it is more effective than using the armor...

Armor or pads give a feeling of safety on both sides that's not present in "reality" as well as reduce range of motion.

...But I can't think of a way I could pull of doing it with the typical American martial artist if and when I move back to the states.

Hockey pads, 45 dgree angles and plenty of band aids maybe? :rofl:

 

[KyleShort]

Two thoughts:

1 : You get out of the martial arts what you put into it. Though it is true that many martial arts use kata to teach principles, not techniques, it is up to the individual to understand that. It is all too easy for someone to simply collect techniques and fight by rote, rather than breach an understanding of why they are doing what they do. To that effect, there are those that would use the Kihon Happo as a series of techniques, and never really understand the underlying principles.

This next part directly relates to Techno's comments. For these type of people, I think that the type of attacks are VERY relevant. If a technique collector only ever practices against a long, straight punch, that is all they will ever be able to defend against. They don't seek the principle and they don't get it. In light of that, I will go out on a limb and suggest that moderrn American fast food mentatality creates an overwhelming majority of technique collectors. Perhaps it makes sense to "modernize" a system by introducing "realistic" and "modern" attacks. You and I know that if you master a principle, you don't have to train for every attack under the sun because you can dynamically apply. But if you have no clue about the principle, then maybe you need to train against every attack?

2 : This is related to Don's comments about stress and kata training. I agree, however we also have to consider that unlike the majority of modern martial artists, traditional japanese martial artists were warriors that had to repeatedly use their skills on the battlefield. If they had little experience with adrenaline and stress management, they would soon become indoctrinated in it with their first military engagement. So in the koryu I think it would be reasonable to assume that these warriors had a level of stress training that many modern practitioners never experience.

I know that most will not agree with me on this next part, but I also use this as a basis for why I feel that resistant partner training and sparring is important. The people who founded and taught the martial schools of old did so with direct battlefield experience. They did not need rubber suits of armor or sparring pads to gain actual hands on combat experience. Their lives were frought with danger already. But today that is not the truth with most of us, and we kid oursleves if we believe that we are trained in the same way as warriors of old, because we are missing that key element of application. However there have been modern developments (ie. Kano etc.) that take us a step closer.

 

[ginshun]

I am not a member of either organization, so take my opinion as you will, but it seems that the difference between the two is more in the way they are taught as opposed to what is actually taught.

I am sure they don't teach exactly the same things, but I bet they are pretty close. To-Shin Do seems a little like a commercialized, more structured version of the Bujinkan.

I am sure there is more that is different, but as first glance, that is kind of what stands out.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Kyle, if I didn't know better I'd probably think you're saying that the Bujinkan is geared towards more intelligent individuals than Toshindo is...?

But today that is not the truth with most of us, and we kid oursleves if we believe that we are trained in the same way as warriors of old, because we are missing that key element of application.

We are also kidding ourselves if we don't think their knowledge is attainable nowadays.

Not to put too fine of a point on it, but if you don't have the dedication to do what is necessary to become proficient in the Takamatsuden systems, stay the **** away from them.:rpo:

 

[Satt]

Wow, this topic just never gets old does it??? :whip: :idunno:

 

[saru1968]

Meaning of Life

Politics

Religeon (sp?)

Egg vs Chicken

endless really..........

 

[Shogun]

I think the main reason SKH "modernized" Taijutsu, is this (and this comes from the videos I have):

Sure, you can find every type of training in the bujinkan. I can mention something, and you can say, "well so and so does that out of Grand rapids, michigan" or "so and so does that in cedar falls, Iowa" but Mr. Hayes wanted ALL of the To shindo guys to do the same thing, his way.


KE

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Now why would anyone want that, when even Hatsumi doesn't?

 

[Linger]

I think the main reason SKH "modernized" Taijutsu, is this (and this comes from the videos I have):

Sure, you can find every type of training in the bujinkan. I can mention something, and you can say, "well so and so does that out of Grand rapids, michigan" or "so and so does that in cedar falls, Iowa" but Mr. Hayes wanted ALL of the To shindo guys to do the same thing, his way.


KE

That takes away the best thing for me in learning in the Bujinkan is that it is so personal.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Getting over yourself is one thing, getting over Hatsumi's wishes is quite another...

 

[Shogun]

Hey, I didnt do it. dont blame me. its a different flavor. thats all. some people like spicy food, some like bland, some like watered down, some like a little of it all, etc.

 

[ginshun]

Not to put too fine of a point on it, but if you don't have the dedication to do what is necessary to become proficient in the Takamatsuden systems, stay the **** away from them

Could you please outline how many hours per day and how many years I have to train for my dedication to meet up with your standards? Since it seems to be up to you and all.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

It's not my standards.

 

[ginshun]

Then who's, and what exactly are they? I am not trying to cause problems here, I just want to know what is considered to be adaquate dedication to be allowed to improve myself.

I guess being that I am not in the X-Kans, I was unaware that there were minimum training requirements.

 

[saru1968]

Well In my case, I've set aside the rest of my life, so there's no hurry and I can enjoy the journey.

But thats just me and I am MAD.

Gary

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

My point is this...why would you cut down on and/or remove several training components that used to be considered extremely crucial and fundamental, such as ukemi, hoken juroppo, kamae no kata and all-around physical conditioning (no, I'm not suggesting we all learn to smash pebbles and do front somersaults on our index fingers, but you get my point), other than to make the training available to a larger amount of people who otherwise wouldn't have the endurance, patience and constitution to keep going? And why would you want to enroll such individuals in the first place?

I don't think anyone benefits from having pupils around that aren't seriously interested in becoming as proficient as they possibly can. That is a waste of the instructor's and everyone else's time and abilities. Those who say that they only train for the fun of it - do they really train hard enough? Those who train purely for self defense - do they really grasp what the concept of self defense encompasses? Those who train merely out of a historical interest - are they respecting the wishes of Hatsumi sensei, that this is to be a form of budo one can use to survive with, and not merely a "museum in motion"? And those who say they don't train to be able to handle real confrontations - do they really have faith in the effectiveness of the Takamatsuden arts?

 

[ginshun]

I guess see your point.

I just don't think that it is anybody's place to somebody else the reasons why they should or shouldn't train.

Its obvious that you personally view To-Shin Do as vastly inferior to Bujinkan training. I would guess that is a matter of opinion though isn't it? I wonder if Steve Hayes would agree?

I am not trying to defend or admonish either one, just interested in what people think.

and To-Shin Do doesn't teach ukemi or the others you mentioned? I didn't know that. If that is true, then I would see it as a major drawback. I thought they taught all of them, they just had different names and systems for teaching them. Kamae anyway.

 

[Gina]

TO-SHIN DO doesn't have Ukemi?

Strange there on the DVDs and TO-SHIN DO curriculum my instructor has.

 

[Gina]

But, following on from my last post.

I Guess thats what happens when people talk about TO-SHIN Do without actually experiencing it. Lots of misunderstanding, by people who think they know everything.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Its obvious that you personally view To-Shin Do as vastly inferior to Bujinkan training.

Not if what I've been told turns out be totally inaccurate.