Differences between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan?

[Arachne]

​

Don: "I understand you are a student of Gary Arthur and are repeating word for word what he has said".​

I am not copying Gary Arthur word for word....
As Kreth wrote, please be more careful in the future.​

What I have said is a personal summary based on the little I have been taught & read. Im noob, errors are to be expected.​

Don "Please do not continue their crusade."​

What crusade?!
Who is they/their?​

No one is storming a fortress or fighting some infidel Don!​

You are seeing it as a "crusade". I wonder... WHY do YOU see it like that Don?​

Personally I am interested in Ninjutsu as a whole, which include's the entire family tree, all branches, roots, etc.
That is to say, I am not on the side of just Bujinkan or Toshindo,
I am on both & open to views from all sides.
To truly answer THE ORIGINAL QUESTION it will require analysis from an objective view.
That is not taking anything slightly vs Bujinkan as personally/sensitively as a rigid pastor take's criticism vs Jesus.​

In regard of the original question
Differences between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan?​

following on from SKB​

this idea of formality is something also evident in some Muay Thai.
I only trained for 4 months but the focus was on technique & formality.
A technique and form which was, as if, there is only ONE WAY to kick, and you must kick THIS WAY only.​

Saru wrote "Yeah, but remember its the REAL stuff from the 80's..."​

1.So from this im gathering that, Bujinkan came before Toshindo?​

If this is so -
thinking of the entire Ninjutsu as a family tree,
Was Bujinkan there in the genesis, was it the seed which founded all subsequent growth? Did it come after? If so, at which date? At which historical era?​

2. Im curious of why you put "REAL" in capital letters. Is this some attempt to deny Toshindo reality and suggest its some sort of illusion that does'nt work when Stephen Haye's has clearly proved it is real?​

 

[bydand]

Dude, you have to format that mess. I can't follow what is supposed to be a quote, what is a reply, or what is just a statement for the most part.

Also, it is a wise man who listens to what Mr. Roley has to say. He knows more about the history and "connections" of the whole Ninjutsu tree (including where To-Shin Do fits into the picture) than probably anybody else on this forum (No offense to anybody else, just my opinion.)

I also train To-Shin Do, started Bujinkan and when the school stayed with SKH when he "formed" To-Shin Do, I stuck with my Instructors because there is nothing else even remotely close up here. I have learned more about the history and development of the Bujinkan right here on Martial Talk than I have by any other means. Keep calm in actions and posts, and you will learn the missing pieces; fire up a flame war and nobody will answer your questions or posts, including me. Simmer down, don't take offense where none is intended and LISTEN to the answers given. Nobody here has ever belittled what I train, shoot I am willing to bet nobody really CARED what I trained in.

When we switched as a school there was NO change in training, none, zip, nada. The difference was the sign out front and instead of the nice white to green to black belts worn, we went to the jeezly rainbow conglomeration To-Shin Do follows. Man I miss the days of simplicity with the belts, probably my biggest gripe! The Instructors here continued to go to Japan to train with Hatsumi Soke, and as far as I know did right up to last summer.

 

[SKB]

If your instructors changed nothing but the sign out front, what is the real differerces between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan? Besides the color of the belts. I think this post clears up the entire subject. If the only change was the sign out front and the color belts then we have everyones answer do we not?

 

[Don Roley]

If your instructors changed nothing but the sign out front, what is the real differerces between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan? Besides the color of the belts. I think this post clears up the entire subject. If the only change was the sign out front and the color belts then we have everyones answer do we not?

I think the real difference is that Toshindo is going the way of Hayes, while those of us in the Bujinkan are going the way of Hatsumi. Yes, Hayes had a big influence on the early instructors of the Bujinkan. He taught many of the teachers that taught the later teachers, etc.

But there were many, many mistakes passed along do to their inexperience. We all make mistakes and they are no worse than the rest of us. So those of us in the Bujinkan trying to master the art as passed down to Hatsumi continue to challenge our preconceptions and maintain a contact with those that can get the corrections of our bad habits so that we may become more like Takamatsu, Hatsumi and all the others that we admire.

It is not about more techniques. It is trying to find out the mistakes that we have been doing and correcting them.

PS- thank you Bydand for the kind words.

 

[bydand]

If your instructors changed nothing but the sign out front, what is the real differerces between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan? Besides the color of the belts. I think this post clears up the entire subject. If the only change was the sign out front and the color belts then we have everyones answer do we not?

Well...... yes and no. How's that for a concrete answer . Yes as it pertained to the dojo I was training in, and I can only make that statement for that ONE. I visited SKH's Dayton school before the switch and his training was different than my regular school. As it stands now, I cannot answer the question about how different the arts are now. Remember the switch came about 8 or 9 years ago. In that amount of time there are going to be differences that crop up, but being so close to something you don't see what those subtle differences are, until time has passed and you step into a dojo of the "parent art." I haven't been in a Bujinkan Dojo in quite some time, so my perspective of BBT training methods are likely off at this time. I do know the main Instructor in this area (Northern Maine) of To-Shin Do did continue to visit Japan and train with Hatsumi right up to a short time ago. What the other Instructors continued to do after the switch/split I cannot answer.

 

[SKB]

Where I was trying to go with my last comment was to find out from some of the Bujinkan folks what is the differences? I keep reading how Mr. Hayes and To-Shin Do are not what Mr. Hatsumi is teaching in Japan. Well how are things diffrent? What are we missing which is being taught in the Bujinkan?

 

[bydand]

Where I was trying to go with my last comment was to find out from some of the Bujinkan folks what is the differences? I keep reading how Mr. Hayes and To-Shin Do are not what Mr. Hatsumi is teaching in Japan. Well how are things diffrent? What are we missing which is being taught in the Bujinkan?

I think this is kind of a loaded question. For a Bujinkan person to explain exactly the differences in training in the Bujinkan and To-Shin Do they would have to be very well versed in both arts, and right up to date with both at the same time. I can see from years back the differences or similarities between the two, but not recent. I think it would also fall on the shoulders of the individual Instructors of the dojos you are comparing. You want an HUGE difference in training methods and a smaller difference in material? Look no further than our own art and look at different schools. Dayton is different than Presque Isle which is different than Portland which is different than ... (pick your own entry here). What SKH is teaching cannot be dead-nuts the same as Hatsumi Soke is teaching because they are different people in different areas; same as what John Poliquin, Brett Varnum, Marc Jobin, and any number of Instructors I've trained with are not exactly the same as SKH within the same organization.

I know this just muddies the water, but I hope you get where I intended to go with my post. Not bashing anybody, their training methods, or even who they are affliated with, but it would be damn near impossable to answer the question just as you asked it.

 

[saru1968]

No idea, as Byland has said you would need someone with a good amount of current time in both arts.

To be honest i would not worry, if you are new to one art i would concentrate on that one rather than worry about the differeces.

I've never seen a Toshindo class yet, so can't comment and doubtful one lesson would give me any deep to comment anyhow, the reverse applies.

 

[SKB]

I wasn't trying to post a loaded question. I have just seen post saying To-Shin Do is 'diffrent' or not even Ninjutsu. I was trying to find out what is different. I was trying to find out if folks were commenting from a position of knowledge or are they just making comments?

 

[bydand]

I wasn't trying to post a loaded question. I have just seen post saying To-Shin Do is 'diffrent' or not even Ninjutsu. I was trying to find out what is different. I was trying to find out if folks were commenting from a position of knowledge or are they just making comments?

Didn't mean you posted it purposely to trip people up, just that it would be very difficult to find someone who could answer the way it was asked.

 

[SKB]

That is why I asked it. Some folks on here post as if they do have the amount of knowledge to be qualified to "tell" the rest of us how things are. SOOOOOO OK, break it down for us/me! Start at the begining and school me!!!!!! I mean technique by technique, concept by concept and not broad based subjects. Let's do the nuts and bolts. Is 'Shizen No Kame' not the same thing in both?

 

[Shizen]

On this subject I am interested to know what people have seen different in the way To Shin Do and BBT do the kihon happo ie how it is taught what thing are stressed and stuff like that. I know that every teacher teaches these different ways, just curios on any big differences you guys have seen.

 

[saru1968]

That is why I asked it. Some folks on here post as if they do have the amount of knowledge to be qualified to "tell" the rest of us how things are. SOOOOOO OK, break it down for us/me! Start at the begining and school me!!!!!! I mean technique by technique, concept by concept and not broad based subjects. Let's do the nuts and bolts. Is 'Shizen No Kame' not the same thing in both?

I think you might be onto a hard job with this approach.

You will find duplicate Kamae in both Arts for good reason as the source of some of the material was Hatsumi Sensei.

But because Two Arts have the same Kamae does not mean they are used in the same fashion.

Both Arts could have Kihon Happo but does not make them the same.

Such a big question, doubtful you will get a conclusive reply.

Just think of the arts as two different cars with different features. Afetr all most cars have doors, they are called doors.

but the way they open changes from car to car, the colour changes as per the car's colour, the design will change from model to model but they are still doors.

Gaz.