Diary of Kukkiwon Poom/Dan Examiner Course in Vienna, Austria - November 2015

[andyjeffries]

I've posted a blog post with my diary from the course: Diary of Kukkiwon Poom/Dan Examiner Course - Vienna, Austria November 2015

Please keep the conversation here, I'm happy to answer any questions that I'm able to based on the course content.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Very interesting read. Coincidentally, I was in Vienna last week for work (Sunday to Friday morning). I was thinking of posting to ask if there was anything TKD-wise to see, but in the end I didn't have a car so it seemed moot. Thanks for the blog.

 

[Dirty Dog5 3]

Thanks for the diary, Andy.

So from my perspective, if we assume that the answers you were given aren't changed (and I agree completely with your decision to have witnesses to the answers), then most of my major concerns have been addressed.
We don't test anybody but our own students, so (from what you were told, and contrary to what was indicated in the emails) panels aren't an issue.
From what you posted, I don't see this course doing much (if anything) to improve ones skills as an examiner, honestly. Which makes it seem a waste of time and money.

 

[andyjeffries]

Thanks for the diary, Andy.

You're welcome, always happy to share.

From what you posted, I don't see this course doing much (if anything) to improve ones skills as an examiner, honestly. Which makes it seem a waste of time and money.

I would agree with the first part (not doing much to improve skills as an examiner), but it will be needed come next year so I wouldn't label it as a waste of time and money.

The course seemed to be a clarification/softening of the rules as people were understanding them, but they were clear that going forward only examiners would be able to promote people. I guess this means they'll effectively revoke people's KMS credentials unless they have certified Examiner status.

 

[Dirty Dog5 3]

Wait. So we don't have panels, but they're still saying you won't be able to promote your own students unless you take this course?

It sounds like it's two things:
1 - Instructor Course Redux
2 - A way to get a quick bolus of cash.

FYI, I am not buying the "$30,000 for 5 people for less than a week" bit. Unless they chartered a private plane. I travel WAYYYYY too much to believe this for a minute. They made a handy profit off this, multiplied by how many this year?

I've got Sue, Kim and I booked for a week in Belize this coming Janurayr. Flights, ground transport, five star resort, and a week of diving for all of us. $4500. And I could have done it a lot cheaper, if that was the goal. If the KKW spent $30,000, then they're probably not smart enough to be entrusted with large sums of cash...

 

[TrueJim]

First of all...thank you for these notes!!!

- - -

• “They stressed frequently that Taekwondo should be natural, so for example the old correction of when performing a back stance outer forearm block not having the rear arm in a teapot shape goes out of the window, the don't want the waist unnaturally twisted to be 90 degrees to the direction of travel.”

I’m not sure I follow. What are they recommending as the correct shape for the rear arm? Are they saying it IS okay to be a teapot? (I'm already short and stout.)

- - -

• “The Kukkiwon advocates forming in-between new tests between Dan ranks also called (confusingly) geup tests, but say it's up to the master.”

It’s interesting how many of the things in your notes we already do in our school…but that may be because so many of our instructors are recently-trained by Kukkiwon. FYI, our color-belts learn the Taegeuk forms of course, but then our black-belts learn the Palgwae forms as “in-between” tests when they’re moving up to 2nd and 3rd dan. So our in-between tests consist of: a Palgwae form, a relatively long kicking combination (like 7-8 kicks), 3-station breaks, and sparring. Honestly though, this sometimes feels a little bit like filler, as in "Okay, it's gonna be a couple year before you get promoted again, we don't want you to get bored, so here's some new things to work on to keep interesting..."

- - -

• “The want failing to break to be a failure, it's not a scored item. Again, this was clarified that if someone fails to make a break, they don't get a retry they fail. I think most masters in the room were thinking "yeah, right!"”

Yah that makes no sense to me. For instance, sometimes a failed break is the fault of the board holder.

- - -

• “The Kukkiwon isn't intending to say that all headings should be by panels, just they don't want people jumping between masters.”

In my naivety I didn’t even realize this was a problem! But after you mentioned this, the head of our school said yah…he gets a lot of people coming to him looking for “special” testing. (He says 'no' of course.)

- - -

• “They want to ensure that masters are teaching poomsae not kama, bo or other styles such as Jiu-Jitsu, Karate or other forms of Taekwondo.”

I wonder, do they care if instructors are -teaching- weapons as long as they’re not testing on weapons? We don’t do weapons at our school, but a lot of schools around here really seem to enjoy their weapons classes.

- - -

It’s interesting how much emphasis was placed on meditation.

- - -

• “The main problem though is that the course was billed as an Examiner's Course. But in fact, most of the content was on: how to perform poomsae, how to meditate, loyalty to instructors, how much money people make from Taekwondo and free training with each other.”

Yah honestly, it sounds more like a “We want to make sure that YOU are a good black belt” test than a “We want to make sure there are consistent standards in testing” course.

Excellent notes!

 

[andyjeffries]

Wait. So we don't have panels, but they're still saying you won't be able to promote your own students unless you take this course?

Correct. That is the intention - after a certain deadline (believed to be early next year) you won't be able to promote anybody to poom/dan rank UNLESS you've done the course. If you are grading your own students, you don't need to have a panel, just be one dan above the grade they are going for and be a certified examiner of any class. If you are operating an "open dan" test (where people come who aren't your students) then you must run a panel of qualified examiners, and they must be of the correct class required to promote people to particular dan grades (the details of which I'm unsure of, but may be in the book which has already been put away).

Is that better? Sorry if I'd confused things earlier in my attempts to clearly pass on these requirements.

 

[andyjeffries]

First of all...thank you for these notes!!!

You're very welcome.

• “They stressed frequently that Taekwondo should be natural, so for example the old correction of when performing a back stance outer forearm block not having the rear arm in a teapot shape goes out of the window, the don't want the waist unnaturally twisted to be 90 degrees to the direction of travel.”

I’m not sure I follow. What are they recommending as the correct shape for the rear arm? Are they saying it IS okay to be a teapot? (I'm already short and stout.)

It's OK. For example this is OK http://www.hantei.nl/attachements.php?act=render&item=953 (and maybe even a little bit more) but this http://www.taekwondo-poissy.fr/uploads/images/Fiches/158.jpg is unnecessarily un-natural.

• “The Kukkiwon advocates forming in-between new tests between Dan ranks also called (confusingly) geup tests, but say it's up to the master.”

It’s interesting how many of the things in your notes we already do in our school…but that may be because so many of our instructors are recently-trained by Kukkiwon. FYI, our color-belts learn the Taegeuk forms of course, but then our black-belts learn the Palgwae forms as “in-between” tests when they’re moving up to 2nd and 3rd dan. So our in-between tests consist of: a Palgwae form, a relatively long kicking combination (like 7-8 kicks), 3-station breaks, and sparring. Honestly though, this sometimes feels a little bit like filler, as in "Okay, it's gonna be a couple year before you get promoted again, we don't want you to get bored, so here's some new things to work on to keep interesting..."

That is why we don't do it. I don't want filler. But fortunately Kukkiwon advocates it but doesn't require it.

• “The want failing to break to be a failure, it's not a scored item. Again, this was clarified that if someone fails to make a break, they don't get a retry they fail. I think most masters in the room were thinking "yeah, right!"”

Yah that makes no sense to me. For instance, sometimes a failed break is the fault of the board holder.

Absolutely, or a bad board (slightly damp), or a slip on the floor, or just unlucky while they can generally nail it.

• “The Kukkiwon isn't intending to say that all headings should be by panels, just they don't want people jumping between masters.”

In my naivety I didn’t even realize this was a problem! But after you mentioned this, the head of our school said yah…he gets a lot of people coming to him looking for “special” testing. (He says 'no' of course.)

I know what he means ;-)

• “They want to ensure that masters are teaching poomsae not kama, bo or other styles such as Jiu-Jitsu, Karate or other forms of Taekwondo.”

I wonder, do they care if instructors are -teaching- weapons as long as they’re not testing on weapons? We don’t do weapons at our school, but a lot of schools around here really seem to enjoy their weapons classes.

I don't think they mind if people do it in addition to Kukkiwon, but then certify them in Kama or Bo or whatever, don't make it "part of Taekwondo".

It’s interesting how much emphasis was placed on meditation.

As a non-meditation-fan, interesting is one word for it ;-)

• “The main problem though is that the course was billed as an Examiner's Course. But in fact, most of the content was on: how to perform poomsae, how to meditate, loyalty to instructors, how much money people make from Taekwondo and free training with each other.”

Yah honestly, it sounds more like a “We want to make sure that YOU are a good black belt” test than a “We want to make sure there are consistent standards in testing” course.

Nailed it. But even then, there wasn't really the time/space for the instructors to really help get people standardised.

Excellent notes!

Thank you, you're too kind.

 

[Dirty Dog5 3]

Correct. That is the intention - after a certain deadline (believed to be early next year) you won't be able to promote anybody to poom/dan rank UNLESS you've done the course. If you are grading your own students, you don't need to have a panel, just be one dan above the grade they are going for and be a certified examiner of any class. If you are operating an "open dan" test (where people come who aren't your students) then you must run a panel of qualified examiners, and they must be of the correct class required to promote people to particular dan grades (the details of which I'm unsure of, but may be in the book which has already been put away).

Is that better? Sorry if I'd confused things earlier in my attempts to clearly pass on these requirements.

I won't say it's better, because it still seems more than a little insulting to people who have been promoting their students for 30 or 40 years to suddenly tell them they are no longer qualified to do so.
Unless they spend some money on a new piece of paper. Which (as you've said) doesn't really have anything to do with running promotion examinations.

But it's certainly more clear.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I think a course is useful for some things. I suspect many instructors are teaching the "wrong" forms or the "correct" forms the wrong way. At least this way the instructor has demonstrated knowledge of the standard curriculum/ Kukkiwon performance standard.

I don't quite get why this couldn't be included in the instructor's course, though. If you're certified to teach, why aren't you certified to assess your students?


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[Dirty Dog5 3]

I think a course is useful for some things. I suspect many instructors are teaching the "wrong" forms or the "correct" forms the wrong way. At least this way the instructor has demonstrated knowledge of the standard curriculum/ Kukkiwon performance standard.

I don't quite get why this couldn't be included in the instructor's course, though. If you're certified to teach, why aren't you certified to assess your students?

My point exactly. You're qualified to teach, and you've been both teaching and promoting your students for decades, and now all of a sudden... *poof*... you're no longer qualified.

 

[Metal]

Thanx Andy for the info!

it still seems more than a little insulting to people who have been promoting their students for 30 or 40 years to suddenly tell them they are no longer qualified to do so.

To those who stay up to date regarding Kukkiwon Taekwondo it is.

But you have too keep in mind that there are a lot of high dan holders who never cared about the Kukkiwon Intructors Course and who don't exactly follow the Kukkiwon syllabus, though. Over here in Germany we have lots of older masters who went from ITF Taekwondo to Kukkiwon and now we have high dan holders of the 2nd or 3rd generation issuing Kukkiwon certifications without caring about how today's techniques should look like.

Regarding the Examiner course it's interesting that all German participants had to be approved by Kukkiwon Germany. I guess this has to do with Ko Eui Min trying to stop Park Soo Nam from controlling the distribution of Kukkiwon certificates in Germany. Ko Eui Min was also one the main masters who was inviting other people's students to test at his dojang. Not just from Germany, but also from abroad. The "still test your own students" policy may have come into play after his letter of complaint to the Korean president and ministry of sports. So having all participants being approved my Kukkiwon Germany may be Park Soo Nam's or even the Kukkiwon's revenge on Ko.

 

[Miles]

Thanks for the information Andy. I got an email the course will be held soon in Los Angeles. I would like to attend and this helps!