Desperate city

[michaeledward]

All I get is that there seems to be a unarguable, one size fits all blame game waiting in the box to be used whenever the need arises....

Could it be because we have a one-size-fits-all Administration.

Tax Cuts & I'm a war President

 

[Sapper6]

The reasoning is simple...answer the following questions.

Who is poor? Who lives in the lowest areas? Who was unable to get out? Who was?

Your example oversimplifies what has happened in India. Certain ethnic groups/races/castes suffer more their too...for the same reasons they do here.

you're right, it was poor black people that got left there. ding, ding, ding, you're the winner. next question: who should have shouldered the responsibility of evacuating those folks...? our white president? our white federal gov't. wrong there chief.

and if it were racism that stranded the remaining citizens of new orleans, which in itself is such an ignorant claim, then it was committed by the BLACK mayor of the city. so can it really be racism...? or perhaps the fault of one white democratic governor, so maybe it is racism...? :idunno:

Many in the media are turning their eyes toward the federal government, rather than considering the culpability of city and state officials. I am fully aware of the challenges of having a quick and responsive emergency response to a major disaster. And there is definitely a time for accountability; but what isn't fair is to dump on the federal officials and avoid those most responsible--local and state officials who failed to do their job as the first responders. The plain fact is, lives were needlessly lost in New Orleans due to the failure of Louisiana's governor, Kathleen Blanco, and the city's mayor, Ray Nagin.

The primary responsibility for dealing with emergencies does not belong to the federal government. It belongs to local and state officials who are charged by law with the management of the crucial first response to disasters. First response should be carried out by local and state emergency personnel under the supervision of the state governor and his emergency operations center.

this is correct. just because the president issued a declaration of emergency two days before landfall doesn't mean the evac responsibility lies with the federal government, it only means they shoulder the bill and all financial expenses for such evacuations.

The actions and inactions of Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin are a national disgrace due to their failure to implement the previously established evacuation plans of the state and city. Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved.

a plan that was written by THEM, not the federal gov't...and it states:

Louisiana disaster plan, pg 13, para 5 , dated 01/00
'The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating'...

In addition to the plans, local, state and federal officials held a simulated hurricane drill 13 months ago, in which widespread flooding supposedly trapped 300,000 people inside New Orleans. The exercise simulated the evacuation of more than a million residents. The problems identified in the simulation apparently were not solved.

again, whose fault...?

The city's evacuation plan states: "The city of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas." But even though the city has enough school and transit buses to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the mayor did not use them. To compound the problem, the buses were not moved to high ground and were flooded. The plan also states that "special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific lifesaving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed." This was not done.

Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed, in these facilities. Mayor Nagin failed in his responsibility to provide public safety and to manage the orderly evacuation of the citizens of New Orleans. Now he wants to blame Gov. Blanco and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In an emergency the first requirement is for the city's emergency center to be linked to the state emergency operations center. This was not done.

The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid.

Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents.

so pull your race card. it's complete BS. the link above is perhaps the most honest and accurate opinion to come out of this tragedy.

all those people were screwed over because of their race...? you obviously have no idea just how ignorant that sounds.

and just in case you're so inclined to question this guys opinion, please don't. he knows a little about how states deal with natural disasters.



:whip:

 

[Makalakumu]

all those people were screwed over because of their race...? you obviously have no idea just how ignorant that sounds.

Please find where I said this. I said race was a factor, not the factor. With floods and deep south, it has always been a factor.

Basically, I agree, a HUGE factor is, as people have been pointing out, when the **** hit the fan, people passed the buck.

 

[Tgace]

Did you hear the latest. The governor (or is it the Mayor) is ordering the Guard and LEO's to stop supplying the holdouts with food and water to force them to evacuate. The Military is ignoring the order and giving these people what they need. If you want them out try talking them out or dragging them out if needs be. You dont starve Americans to get your way.

 

[Sapper6]

i agree someone failed miserably in performing in their job. i do not agree racism was a factor. to believe this you must concede that these people were left there by someone else simply because of their race. it's not that simple.

 

[Sapper6]

Did you hear the latest. The governor (or is it the Mayor) is ordering the Guard and LEO's to stop supplying the holdouts with food and water to force them to evacuate. The Military is ignoring the order and giving these people what they need. If you want them out try talking them out or dragging them out if needs be. You dont starve Americans to get your way.

this is sad and pathetic handling. it's no suprise to hear the military ignoring this absurd order, they know better.

 

[7starmantis]

Please find where I said this. I said race was a factor, not the factor. With floods and deep south, it has always been a factor.

Please tell me you’re joking. Floods in deep south have always had a race factor? So the rain or the storm doesn't care about black people? You can't possibly present any kind of rational argument to support a conspiracy to drown african americans with natural disasters. That’s just simply a conspiracy theory.

Racism exists because of people who like to keep reminding everyone that it exists. I think many of the "top leaders" of the "civil rights" movement today are the biggest contributors to racism in america today. Let me give you an example. I've been confronted with racism a couple times in my life. Twice that I really remember. The first time was in college, the guy made a crack and tried to get in my face, and I jumped on him and beat his ***. The second time was right out of college, I kept my cool and wrote the guy off as ignorant. My best friend and roommate from college several years later was talking to me about racism. We got to talking about personal experiences.....guess which example is the only one he remembered. He was there for both of them. Exactly, he only remembered the one incident were I made an *** of myself and made damn sure everyone would remember it. That does more than all the white hooded cross burners in the south could ever dream of doing. It’s the martyr syndrome.


7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Did you hear the latest. The governor (or is it the Mayor) is ordering the Guard and LEO's to stop supplying the holdouts with food and water to force them to evacuate. The Military is ignoring the order and giving these people what they need. If you want them out try talking them out or dragging them out if needs be. You dont starve Americans to get your way.

I agree with you, but there comes a point. What follows could be construde as semantics, but bear with me.

You dont starve Americans to get your way.

There comes a point where Americans need to feed themselves. This is a bit off in reality, but I have a big issue with people expecting things. As a human being or an american, the responsibility for feeding myself or keeping from starving actually rests on me, not the government giving me food.
Now, that sounds harsh in this situation and I agree it is a bit, but we have to keep in check certain feelings. I actually spent time in the area delivering supplies and helping transport "guests" back to east texas. What pissed me off the most were the angry people who were enraged because we weren't doing enough for them....do some things for your own damn self once in a while! There were people "fighting mad" because no one had told them were they were going after they got them to safety. Your life was just saved....try to be gratefull.

Ok, off my soap box now...discussion may continue.

7sm

 

[Tgace]

I agree with you 7sm....at the root of this whole problem cant one say that the decision to live in a city below sea level was the initial reason for these peoples troubles?

My point is that the politicians are turning this into a turf war, The governor of La. refuses to allow the guard to be federalized. IMO because that would take them out of her control.

 

[arnisador]

....at the root of this whole problem cant one say that the decision to live in a city below sea level was the initial reason for these peoples troubles?

Part of me agrees...but part of me thinks of Calif. and earthquakes, Florida and hurricanes, even NYC and crime. Should everyone live where it's "safe"?

Yet, in my gut I tend to agree...live below sea level on the oceanside, and you gotta expect trouble. I'm not happy about paying tens to hundreds of billions to rebuild something that relies on water not flowing downhill.

 

[Shorin Ryuu]

Time to cite Fox News and say the American Red Cross and the Salvation Army were not allowed access to New Orleans to give supplies, place personnel and use equipment before Katrina hit, the day it was hit, and after it hit. By who? The Louisiana government, of course. They didn't want to encourage people to stay longer...(more than the mayor was, at any rate).





Now, I know most of my liberal colleagues will scoff and say that is conservative crazy talk. Fortunately, CNN has picked up the story (which only Fox News was reporting earlier). Only they didn't quite pick it up that well...
http://www.cnn.com/2005/uS/09/08/katrina.redcross/index.html

"The national president of the American Red Cross, Marsha Evans, first made the request to undertake the operation during a visit to the state on September 1, three days after Hurricane Katrina struck, a local Red Cross chapter official said."

However, that is a misleading quote. They fail to mention that it was only one of numerous requests for access that was denied.
Days after Katrina hit, they were denied access. Right after Katrina hit, they were denied access. The day Katrina hit, they were denied access. The days before Katrina hit, they were denied access...All by the Louisiana government. But the quote implies the relief effort was only ready to go on 1 September, when in fact such was not the case. They were ready before the Hurricane even hit. They were just denied access at the state and local level.


I look forward to the cognitive dissonance and backpedalling in the media when more (and correct) news of this comes out.

 

[Tgace]

Part of me agrees...but part of me thinks of Calif. and earthquakes, Florida and hurricanes, even NYC and crime. Should everyone live where it's "safe"?

Yet, in my gut I tend to agree...live below sea level on the oceanside, and you gotta expect trouble. I'm not happy about paying tens to hundreds of billions to rebuild something that relies on water not flowing downhill.

The difference being that they were living in a MANMADE basin. Lets move into a place they pumped the ocean out of in 1910. The idea of looking UP to see the horizon.....Brrrr.

 

[Tgace]

What pissed me off the most were the angry people who were enraged because we weren't doing enough for them....do some things for your own damn self once in a while! There were people "fighting mad" because no one had told them were they were going after they got them to safety. Your life was just saved....try to be gratefull.

Welcome to the world of public service pal.

 

[michaeledward]

The difference being that they were living in a MANMADE basin. Lets move into a place they pumped the ocean out of in 1910. The idea of looking UP to see the horizon.....Brrrr.

Yeah ... like the city didn't exist before 1910.

But, it looks like our conservative friends in congress learned a bunch from their liberal predecessors.... never met a problem they couldn't fix by throwing money at it.

And I don't know if I would be grateful if I was put on a plane and told I am going 1800 miles from everything I've ever known - which is what happened with the displaced citizens flown into Massachusetts yesterday. There was no choice given to where they would go. Some of whom have never been out of New Orleans before - how dare those ungrateful bastards be ungrateful.

 

[Tgace]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans

Much of the city is located below sea level between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain, so the city is surrounded by levees. Until the early 20th century, construction was largely limited to the slightly higher ground along old natural river levees and bayous, since much of the rest of the land was swampy and subject to frequent flooding. This gave the 19th century city the shape of a crescent along a bend of the Mississippi, the origin of the nickname The Crescent City. In the 1910s engineer and inventor A. Baldwin Wood enacted his ambitious plan to drain the city, including large pumps of his own design which are still used. All rain water must be pumped up to the canals which drain into Lake Pontchartrain. Wood's pumps and drainage allowed the city to expand greatly in area. However, pumping of groundwater from underneath the city has resulted in subsidence. The subsidence greatly increased the flood risk,

 

[modarnis]

And I don't know if I would be grateful if I was put on a plane and told I am going 1800 miles from everything I've ever known - which is what happened with the displaced citizens flown into Massachusetts yesterday. There was no choice given to where they would go. Some of whom have never been out of New Orleans before - how dare those ungrateful bastards be ungrateful.

I doubt grateful is relevant at this stage. Safe and clean versus hot, wet, fetid and disease prone, people will be more able to adjust to change given the former option. Any way you slice it, its a bad situation, made constantly worse by people interjecting race and politics into the situation, rather than focusing on helping displaced people regain some semblance of order and control in their lives

 

[Tgace]

I would say that if you expect the government to take care of you thats what happens.

I want the government to take care of me but I want them to do it MY way??

 

[Makalakumu]

Please tell me you’re joking. Floods in deep south have always had a race factor? So the rain or the storm doesn't care about black people? You can't possibly present any kind of rational argument to support a conspiracy to drown african americans with natural disasters. That’s just simply a conspiracy theory.

Conspiracy theory my ***. I suppose all of the African Americans who feel mistreated and that race was a huge issue are "just making it up" that in itself shows a fair amount of racism. Wanna get educated? Read the following.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2124688/

Or you can listen to NPR's story on Day to Day here...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4829960

Here is a little historical evidence on the issue of race and floods...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/flood/filmmore/ps_headlines.html

I'll say it again. Race isn't the only factor, but it played a part.

 

[7starmantis]

The bottom line is that this is a horrible tragedy that has been brought on by a natural disaster. As long as there are humans in office there are going to be decisions based on info, experience, and a little bit of "gut". Humans will allways make mistakes, regardless of whether they are democrat, republican, black, white, or red. There are more good decisions here than bad, but we only choose to see the bad. Anyone know there were guardsmen in the city before the storm hit and the levees broke? They were there at the super dome, just not enough of them. Hindsight is always 20/20 we can see now that there weren't enough here or there or whatever, but before the storm hit, how can you really know for sure? I've been through a cat 4 and cat 5 hurricane, its really anything but predictable. There were errors made, they need to be addressed, but finger pointing and conspiracy theories play no part in helping the future.

Conspiracy theory my ***. I suppose all of the African Americans who feel mistreated and that race was a huge issue are "just making it up" that in itself shows a fair amount of racism. Wanna get educated? Read the following.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2124688/

Or you can listen to NPR's story on Day to Day here...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4829960

Here is a little historical evidence on the issue of race and floods...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/flood/filmmore/ps_headlines.html

I'll say it again. Race isn't the only factor, but it played a part.

C'mon, are you being serious? I don't even understand your point here. I didn't say anyone was making something up (although I do not see how that shows racism in and of itself as you stated) but just because someone cries wolf doesn't mean there's really a wild animal coming towards you. We dont want to get into the race game and talk about ancestors and who had it the worst and such, I'm native american. Lets look at today, not yesterday and be real, show me one serious, fact that shows a connection to anyone trying to drown african americans in floods in the deep south. Your claim is humerous at best. For every voice that says an opinion in one way I can give you 5 that say the other. I'm talking about hard evidence with facts that show your theory. Your links spoke about a storm that hit african americans harder than whites....so that is racism? Katrina is racist? The hurrican went after black americans rather than white americans? Why is it not just that katrina hurt americans? Its just naive to say race had a factor in who was hurt by the storm.

7sm

 

[shesulsa]

Survivor Story: 6-Year-Old Leads Five Toddlers, Baby to Safety