Desperate city

[michaeledward]

Find your city, and see what the folks who support MoveOn.Org have done.

http://www.hurricanehousing.org

 

[arnisador]

Taking the cameras? I hope that's an isolated example.

 

[shesulsa]

It's disturbing that this is happening in what is supposed to be the greatest nation on the planet - one of the richest in the world with some of the best and fastest relief and rescue workers ... now liberty is stomped on rampantly and openly for all to see. Human life disposable.

How horrible.

 

[modarnis]

Racial tensions in the deep south are still very deep. People like Jesse Jackson watched people die in Mississippi...just to get the right to vote. Race played a significant factor with what happened in New Orleans. I'm not saying it was the only factor, but it played a part.

For instance, evacuation order...

"Naw get on outta hea!"
"Sir, what about the poor negros?"
"Let them boys take caya of dem selves."

Sure that is ficticious, but, IMHO, totally plausable.

I find that fictitious commentary wholly offensive. Having myself lived in New Orleans for 4 years in the late 1990's, and maintaining close ties with the city since I left, it is clear to me that you know little or nothing about New Orleans or its government.

New Orleans has had a long line of African American mayors, including the current mayor Nagin and recently Marc Morial (who's father, also a former mayor the convention center is named after). The most recent police chiefs( superintendents) including Eddie Compass and his predecesor Richard Pennington were African American. A majority of the city council is African American, as are a multitude of judges, business people and influential power brokers in greater New Orleans. As a city that averages 65-70% African American population, their government is a very fair cross section of the racial composition of the city.

The real issue in this crisis was an utter disregard for well established incident command structure which would include sub commanders for police, fire, EMS, media relations, resource allocation, public works/engineering, national guard liason,food/water liason, and evacuation coordinator, all managing their respective teams, and commmunicating their needs to the incident commander.

This basic structure is taught natiowide to EMT/paramedic students, firefighters, police agencies. The incident command system should be implemented whenever needs are anticipated to exceed initial response resources. The first person to assess the scene assumes the incident command role. As the situation progresses, command can be transferred to another person. Without this type of command and control already set up, it was difficult for FEMA or homeland or National guard to come in and assume control of an already out of control situation. The mayor was in the best position on Saturday/Sunday before the storm hit to assume the role of IC and set up a command structure. It is fairly obvious that he did not create that type of structure. It is doubtful that race was a controlling factor in those initial failures

 

[7starmantis]

You're kidding, right?

In 1995 six citizens died in Louisiana because of flooding. From that incident, Congress authorized the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project. This project made it clear that hundreds of millions of dollars were needed to maintain the integrity of the levee system. Some 450 million dollars were spent between 1995 and 2002. In 2002, with tax cuts and an invasion on the horizon, money for SELA was cut. More than 250 million dollars were on the drawing board for continued projects that were never received.

We will never know if those money cuts ... would have prevented the 17th Street Levee from deteriorating or not. But we do know that the money was on the board because of known danger.

So when exactly were the level 3 cat levees made? After 1995 did you see an expansion or renevation of these levees? No you didn't, you saw spenditure on "maintenance". Why were the levees not build to withstand more than a cat 3 at that time? Your correct, but looking at the wrong issue. Known danger is a farce. They didn't want to spend the money then, why should we believe that if the full allocated amount was available it would have ever been used?

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

I find that fictitious commentary wholly offensive. Having myself lived in New Orleans for 4 years in the late 1990's, and maintaining close ties with the city since I left, it is clear to me that you know little or nothing about New Orleans or its government.

New Orleans has had a long line of African American mayors, including the current mayor Nagin and recently Marc Morial (who's father, also a former mayor the convention center is named after). The most recent police chiefs( superintendents) including Eddie Compass and his predecesor Richard Pennington were African American. A majority of the city council is African American, as are a multitude of judges, business people and influential power brokers in greater New Orleans. As a city that averages 65-70% African American population, their government is a very fair cross section of the racial composition of the city.

The real issue in this crisis was an utter disregard for well established incident command structure which would include sub commanders for police, fire, EMS, media relations, resource allocation, public works/engineering, national guard liason,food/water liason, and evacuation coordinator, all managing their respective teams, and commmunicating their needs to the incident commander.

This basic structure is taught natiowide to EMT/paramedic students, firefighters, police agencies. The incident command system should be implemented whenever needs are anticipated to exceed initial response resources. The first person to assess the scene assumes the incident command role. As the situation progresses, command can be transferred to another person. Without this type of command and control already set up, it was difficult for FEMA or homeland or National guard to come in and assume control of an already out of control situation. The mayor was in the best position on Saturday/Sunday before the storm hit to assume the role of IC and set up a command structure. It is fairly obvious that he did not create that type of structure. It is doubtful that race was a controlling factor in those initial failures

Very true and the governor also drug her feet. She is the one who had the initial power to use national guard troops. The structure needs to be examined. Race, in my opinion has very, very little to do with this issue.

7sm

 

[Rich Parsons]

I find that fictitious commentary wholly offensive. Having myself lived in New Orleans for 4 years in the late 1990's, and maintaining close ties with the city since I left, it is clear to me that you know little or nothing about New Orleans or its government.

New Orleans has had a long line of African American mayors, including the current mayor Nagin and recently Marc Morial (who's father, also a former mayor the convention center is named after). The most recent police chiefs( superintendents) including Eddie Compass and his predecesor Richard Pennington were African American. A majority of the city council is African American, as are a multitude of judges, business people and influential power brokers in greater New Orleans. As a city that averages 65-70% African American population, their government is a very fair cross section of the racial composition of the city.

The real issue in this crisis was an utter disregard for well established incident command structure which would include sub commanders for police, fire, EMS, media relations, resource allocation, public works/engineering, national guard liason,food/water liason, and evacuation coordinator, all managing their respective teams, and commmunicating their needs to the incident commander.

This basic structure is taught natiowide to EMT/paramedic students, firefighters, police agencies. The incident command system should be implemented whenever needs are anticipated to exceed initial response resources. The first person to assess the scene assumes the incident command role. As the situation progresses, command can be transferred to another person. Without this type of command and control already set up, it was difficult for FEMA or homeland or National guard to come in and assume control of an already out of control situation. The mayor was in the best position on Saturday/Sunday before the storm hit to assume the role of IC and set up a command structure. It is fairly obvious that he did not create that type of structure. It is doubtful that race was a controlling factor in those initial failures

I agree here. New Orleans also had free African Americans before the Civil and during the Civil War. The city has a long history of African American involvement and belonging to the community.

The issue was not and is not race, but, is one of being aware or executing structures that should have been in place. As Iw as not involved with the briefings, I do not know what the Mayor or the Govenor was told, or how the situation was pitched.

As for Fiction my account could be just as likely as yours:

Mr Mayor I believe that the storm will hit Missisippi and that there may be some flooding but all is in order, do not worry.

or

Madame Governor I believe that the storm will hit Missisippi and that there may be some flooding but all is in order, do not worry.

Yet, as I was not there, and would prefer to have people working on fixing the broken dams and pumps, as well as to tending to the dead, and relocation of those now homeless, and then rebuilding plans, before we hang the people for this event.

While I agree that it is sad it took time to respond, and loss of lives and the conditions people were put in, I have to re-iterate what Brett said above, that the structures should have been in place, and it looks like they were in Missisippi as there was less loss of lives there and it was easier for the National Guard to step in and take over and take charge. And you cannot tell me that there are no poor people in Missisippi, be they White or Black.

So, it is not an issue White or Black or Rich or Poor, it is one of execution.

At least that is my Thrusday Morning quarter backing Hind-site opinion is.

 

[Makalakumu]

The structure of the government surely played the leading factor in explaining the mishandling of the situation, but I think you are missing something if you can look at the masses of poor black suffering and dying and NOT see any racial factors. This is more then a simple case of wrong place wrong time.

 

[Rich Parsons]

The structure of the government surely played the leading factor in explaining the mishandling of the situation, but I think you are missing something if you can look at the masses of poor black suffering and dying and NOT see any racial factors. This is more then a simple case of wrong place wrong time.

The population of those in New Orleans is mostly Africa American.

Brett said on the order of 65% to 70%.

That is like taking a sample of Hamtramack, that used to be predominately Polish, and now is Predominately Middle Eastern. If you took a sample size of people from there, you would see a middle eastern group of people that could be said was racist then or even religious persecution.

I agree it is more then a simple case of wrong place wrong time it is like I said an issue of executing a structure that should have been in place.

 

[Makalakumu]

The population of those in New Orleans is mostly Africa American.

Brett said on the order of 65% to 70%.

That is like taking a sample of Hamtramack, that used to be predominately Polish, and now is Predominately Middle Eastern. If you took a sample size of people from there, you would see a middle eastern group of people that could be said was racist then or even religious persecution.

I agree it is more then a simple case of wrong place wrong time it is like I said an issue of executing a structure that should have been in place.

New Orleans is part of a bigger whole. And, historically, flooding in that area and the greater area has predominantly affected poor black people. The lowest lying neighborhoods are the poorest and the blackest. The people who are bearing the brunt are predominantly poor and black and have always been. Part of the reason for this is racial.

 

[Rich Parsons]

New Orleans is part of a bigger whole. And, historically, flooding in that area and the greater area has predominantly affected poor black people. The lowest lying neighborhoods are the poorest and the blackest. The people who are bearing the brunt are predominantly poor and black and have always been. Part of the reason for this is racial.

So the Typhons in the India Ocean that cause floods in India is also Racial? 10,000 people die each year just from rain fall flooding, not even the storms.

So this is also racial since the Indians live there, and it did not affect the English as much when they ran the country? or those who still live there, but are not of local racial stock?

I am lost here with your reasoning.

 

[Makalakumu]

So the Typhons in the India Ocean that cause floods in India is also Racial? 10,000 people die each year just from rain fall flooding, not even the storms.

So this is also racial since the Indians live there, and it did not affect the English as much when they ran the country? or those who still live there, but are not of local racial stock?

I am lost here with your reasoning.

The reasoning is simple...answer the following questions.

Who is poor? Who lives in the lowest areas? Who was unable to get out? Who was?

Your example oversimplifies what has happened in India. Certain ethnic groups/races/castes suffer more their too...for the same reasons they do here.

 

[Makalakumu]

you are so unable to have any logical or meaningful conversation. Glad I'm not so hamstrung by ideology

Somebody sent this too me anonymously...

All I can say is, answer the questions I posed above and tell me that racism played no part. The only thing hamstrung in this comment is the poster's ability to see reality.

Racism was a factor. Not the factor, but it WAS a factor.

For further reading on this try Cornell West's Race Matters. Perhaps, even you can see what I'm talking about.

 

[Rich Parsons]

The reasoning is simple...answer the following questions.

Who is poor? Who lives in the lowest areas? Who was unable to get out? Who was?

Your example oversimplifies what has happened in India. Certain ethnic groups/races/castes suffer more their too...for the same reasons they do here.

While my example may have been over simplification, it is nothing more then what has been presented already. I just followed the same premise as what was presented. So if it is over simplification for me it is also for those who used the same methods and explanations.

I still want to know why the Poor African Americans got out in Mississippi but, not in New Orleans. If your arguement had validity you would be able to prove that no matter where people are there is racism.

I do not doubt that racism exists, I face it myself, maybe not as much as the average African American, but I face it with comments, of Sand ..., Towel Head, Camel jockey, Half-breed, and many others. And with the recent issues in the Middle East, I have faced more insults and slurs, and issues when travelling abroad. I have also been followed out of towns by White Police Officers, because I am not Blonde and Blue eyed. You can Ask Paul about a time he crossed from Canada to the USA with me, and how I got the third degree, while he did not have to answer, or did not care that he answered, or the fact that he admited that he had weapons in the trunk. Yet, I was really in trouble for having training equipment. So I KNOW it exists.

Yet, in this case, I do not see it.

You are going to have to make a much stronger case that all the poor are being treated wrongly. Then you will have to prove that there were poor White people who got out in the same neighborhoods, and with the same conditions, while the African Americans were sent somewhere and not evacuated, by choice, by someone who was not African American.


*****************************


Now if you are truly upset, and cannot believe that this could happen here in the USA, and you are outraged, then add your voice to your Senators and Congressmen, to have an investigation, but to not just stand back and make claims of Racism, just because some people involved were African American.




:asian:

 

[Tgace]

Aint nothing like taking advantage of a disaster for political gain/leverage eh?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/w...05/09/07/democrats_shift_strategy_on_roberts/

WASHINGTON -- Senate Democrats said yesterday that they will invoke the vast disparities in income and living conditions laid bare by the Hurricane Katrina disaster to sharpen their questioning of Supreme Court nominee John G. Roberts Jr. at his confirmation hearings next week.

The scenes of devastation featuring primarily poor African-American residents in New Orleans have highlighted the widening gap between rich and poor, said Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts.

 

[Marginal]

Aint nothing like taking advantage of a disaster for political gain/leverage eh?

Hey don't knock it. Got us into Iraq didn't it?

 

[Makalakumu]

Rich, I appreciate your candor. However, I must disagree. There are many good books out there that specifically address racism and flooding. Heck, listening to NPR the other day, they did a huge segment on it. The poorest and blackest neighborhoods were and are always the lowest. Heck, it wasn't too long ago that levees were built so that they excluded black neighboorhoods. From Georgia to Missouri to Texas this was the case.

There was a poll recently done by NPR. The results were that 66% of African Americans felt that what happened in New Orleans was a direct result of the racial tensions. 78% felt that if white people had been living there, the levees would have been built up. However, only 17% of white people believe that race was a factor. This disparity in opinion is staggering, and I think it is indicative of the state of race relations in this country.

 

[Tgace]

So if you BELIEVE there is racism then there IS racism?

 

[Makalakumu]

So if you BELIEVE there is racism then there IS racism?

Oh I get it, they are just making it up...

 

[Tgace]

All I get is that there seems to be a unarguable, one size fits all blame game waiting in the box to be used whenever the need arises....