Demos And The Impression They Give

[MJS]

Recently, while searching through the forum, I've come across a few posts in threads that were showing demo clips of various arts. There seemed to be a concern that what was being shown in the clips was not realistic, due to the fact that in many cases, the opponent would 'freeze' while numerous counter strikes were applied by the defender. This at times, could lead to someone thinking that the art thats being showcased, is not effective.

My question is: How do you view these clips and what are your thoughts when you see the art being showcased?

IMO, I think many times, a clip gives a false impression, leading folks to think that what they see is really what they'll get if they picked that art to train in. One thing to keep in mind, is that many times, a demo clip is showing a certain aspect of training, therefore, its done slow to give the viewer a good look. It does not necessarily mean that during training, the opponent will stand stationary.

Thoughts?

Mike

 

[terryl965]

Mike to me demo is just that a demo, it is a place where one can showcase there understanding how a techniques is suppose to be done and that they the ones doing it understand the concept that are being tought by there instructor. I nevr really ever believe demo's to be more than that and for the most parts I believe most understand this. Or atleast I hope so

 

[MJS]

Mike to me demo is just that a demo, it is a place where one can showcase there understanding how a techniques is suppose to be done and that they the ones doing it understand the concept that are being tought by there instructor. I nevr really ever believe demo's to be more than that and for the most parts I believe most understand this. Or atleast I hope so

Hey Terry! Thanks for the reply!:ultracool I hear what you're saying, and I agree. I just think that sometimes, unless things are shown full force, all out, all the time, there will always be a question, for lack of better words.

I kinda view a clip as a drill that would be done during class. A drill is showing a certain aspect, however, its up to the student to find how to apply that drill live. As an example: We have a number of stick disarms in Modern Arnis. They work fine when done at a slow to moderate pace, yet when its time to stick spar, trying to pull one off tends to be much harder. However, ideas/concepts can be taken from that slow disarm and applied to a faster pace.

Mike

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

Hmmmm. I generally dislike demo's which utilise "freeze frame moments" because it does detract from the realism, regardless of the effectiveness of whats being shown.
However I do agree that is neccessary to show things slowly sometimes so onlookers actually know whats going on.
So I figure the best way of doing it is this-
Start off showing the drill slowly, the way as you would if you were teaching someone it in class for the first time. Make sure that everyone has it clear whats being done.
Then go nuts. Up the speed, resistance, contact, variables etc
Display it with enough force and speed for it to be realistic, and even if limited, add some sort of variable to what happens, ie more resistance, or a couple of potential outcomes.
That way you can give people a far better idea what it is you're trying to achieve and how it functions when you up the pressure, without risking potential skull stomping in front of the wee children.

 

[Robert Lee]

A demo with a person not resisting And the other throwing many strikes Well It is over done no way would this ever happen. And it creates hesitation On the person standing there. sure demos are part of learning as long as both undersatnd Its merley for a teaching quide then it is usable. Habits are habits train bad habits they surface in real action train good habits they work.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I would have to say I pretty much agree with terry and demo clip is just that a demo. It is used to help training for applications but in reality demo clips or even clips at full speed show unrealistic responses to an attack.

Some are based on if he does this, then I do this, and he responds with this, and I respond with this and that is simply not the way it works in actual application. A fight or attack is not scripted so a demo clip is simply showing one way to deal with an attack of that type.

If in a demo clip the attacker kicks to your head and you step in to take the leg and take him down in the clip you also should understand that the person in the clip is likely not suggesting that you handle all kicks this way, just this one in this scenario that is all.

This clip posted here for example, I like this clip and I think it is a good demo
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41285&highlight=sanda

But I doubt that the person in the clip means to suggest that this is the only response for this attack. Change that kick slightly and the response changes, but you need to learn this as you go. So I guess this is just a long way around to say pretty much the same thing terry did.

Basics are basics and most demo clips are basics.

However this is not to say all demo clips are good, some are very bad and do teach bad habits or inflexibility but that depends on the person giving the demo.

 

[jks9199]

It depends on what the demo's purpose is. If you're trying to show your systems effective self defense curriculum -- the demo should be reasonably realistic, but you've still got to set it up for the "good guy" to win. If you're demonstrating the story of a form, then the resistance shouldn't be a significant part. Remember -- the point of a demonstration is to SHOW something without getting anyone hurt. I was saw someone demonstrate a technique, and unnecessarily knock his partner out. That didn't impress me... But if his demonstration had been one-punch knockout techniques, yeah --I'd probably have looked for a knockout!

Demos also have to be fit to an audience; I'm going to do a different demo for a elementary school youth program than I would for a law enforcement conference or a senior citizen's group.

 

[MA-Caver]

I think a demo should serve two purposes.
1. To better show the art with realistic applications and how effective it can be.
2. To show that particular school has the talent/skills/experience to teach said art effectively. To do this they can showcase various students at various ages/belts doing what they do best at that level/belt.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

A demo with a person not resisting And the other throwing many strikes Well It is over done no way would this ever happen. And it creates hesitation On the person standing there. sure demos are part of learning as long as both undersatnd Its merley for a teaching quide then it is usable. Habits are habits train bad habits they surface in real action train good habits they work.

You missed the point.
You start the demonstration with the slow choreographed version - showing what you want to happen.
Then you perform the demonstration in a more realistic fashion, by upping the speed, contact, resistance, variables, etc - showing what would actually happen.

If what you're demonstrating is realistic, there shouldn't be too wide a gap between what you want to happen in the first, and what does happen in the second. Or if in the second, if it doesn't go according to plan, they still manage to take control of the situation etc.

Its a far better way to demonstrate skill than just acting.

 

[Grenadier]

I think a demo should serve two purposes.
1. To better show the art with realistic applications and how effective it can be.
2. To show that particular school has the talent/skills/experience to teach said art effectively. To do this they can showcase various students at various ages/belts doing what they do best at that level/belt.

^^ Best statement in this thread.

Demos should be about who you are, and what your art teaches, since you're trying to show your system to the general public.

This is why it's actually a good thing, to have people of all levels in your demo, especially your beginner students. People in the crowds are going to relate to the neophytes, and see what they can do, and be encouraged by it.

 

[exile]

You start the demonstration with the slow choreographed version - showing what you want to happen.

I think this is the main problem that people have with demos. If the demo is being used as a teaching tool---a demonstration of technique, the basic `angle' that the technique takes on the problem posed by the combat situation---then it's got to go slowly so you can see what's happening, which may be far from obvious at normal realistic speeds. So people complain that the assailant just stands there, overlooking the fact that the reason he's doing that is so that you can clearly see what the defender is targetting on the attacker's body, and how...

Then you perform the demonstration in a more realistic fashion, by upping the speed, contact, resistance, variables, etc - showing what would actually happen.

...and I think this is the main problem that (producers of) demos have with people (their audience)---they leave out the crucial speedup to realistic conditions. Just as you can't learn the tech or sequence of techs if it's not broken down, you can't get a sense of how it has to be carried out in real time if you don't see in real time. Method and execution: you need an accurate portreyal of both to have good demo, and unfortunately a lot of demos leave the second part out---they illustrate the technique in loving detail but don't follow up with a demonstration of its use in a realistic scenario. Not sure why that is...

 

[Brad Dunne]

The success or (lack of) of a demo is based on the instructor giving the demo. I have seen some really gifted people that knew their stuff and the demo presentation was a joke. The best demo I've ever witnessed was given by an Aikido instructor. He used a little humor, good techniques and used time as a friend, not rushing thru just to get finished. He went thru a staging phase for each technique, first slow-mo, then mid speed and then full speed. All the while, explaining the why's and how's of what was happening and giving the do's and don't also. Also throwing in humor in the right places and additionally some legalize tid bits. Very informative and very entertaining. Even to the getting a watcher to do a technique on him, after instruction of course. Not everybody is adept at showcasing their art, but finding someone besides themselves, perhaps a student or even another instructor, who has that ability would be a better solution then given a bad demo.

 

[IcemanSK]

I see demos as a way to showcase our art & our school. It's it a fair representation of what you'll get if you come to my school? No. But anytime someone breaks boards or concrete, there's slim correlation between that & SD. There's a slim chance I'll get attacked by a contrete fence cap.

But then again, if a gymnastics school does a demo with their best, most dedicated students, is that school selling the false belief that every new student will be MaryLou Retton?

It's a draw into the school. There's going to be both practical & impractical aspects to any demo of any sport.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Recently, while searching through the forum, I've come across a few posts in threads that were showing demo clips of various arts. There seemed to be a concern that what was being shown in the clips was not realistic, due to the fact that in many cases, the opponent would 'freeze' while numerous counter strikes were applied by the defender. This at times, could lead to someone thinking that the art thats being showcased, is not effective.

My question is: How do you view these clips and what are your thoughts when you see the art being showcased?

IMO, I think many times, a clip gives a false impression, leading folks to think that what they see is really what they'll get if they picked that art to train in. One thing to keep in mind, is that many times, a demo clip is showing a certain aspect of training, therefore, its done slow to give the viewer a good look. It does not necessarily mean that during training, the opponent will stand stationary.

Thoughts?

Mike

I personally have problmes with Video on the internet.

What if the guy doing the technique or the demo said right before the section you are watching, "This is what you do not do."

The tape can be used for reference for those who have seen the technique.

The Demo can be used to get people interested in an art, yet it is difficult to judge an art on such a demo alone.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

I think this is the main problem that people have with demos. If the demo is being used as a teaching tool---a demonstration of technique, the basic `angle' that the technique takes on the problem posed by the combat situation---then it's got to go slowly so you can see what's happening, which may be far from obvious at normal realistic speeds. So people complain that the assailant just stands there, overlooking the fact that the reason he's doing that is so that you can clearly see what the defender is targetting on the attacker's body, and how...



...and I think this is the main problem that (producers of) demos have with people (their audience)---they leave out the crucial speedup to realistic conditions. Just as you can't learn the tech or sequence of techs if it's not broken down, you can't get a sense of how it has to be carried out in real time if you don't see in real time. Method and execution: you need an accurate portreyal of both to have good demo, and unfortunately a lot of demos leave the second part out---they illustrate the technique in loving detail but don't follow up with a demonstration of its use in a realistic scenario. Not sure why that is...

I think its mostly because what is used in demonstrations is rarely what would actually be done in self-defence or reality. They are done for entertainment(which is fine so long as its made clear that thats what this is), or made to illustrate a point(which Im less happy about because the point is rarely backed up).

 

[Touch Of Death]

I learn a lot about a school through its Demos. Usualy its the stuff that wasn't the subject of the Demo that I find most intersting.
Sean

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The success or (lack of) of a demo is based on the instructor giving the demo. I have seen some really gifted people that knew their stuff and the demo presentation was a joke. The best demo I've ever witnessed was given by an Aikido instructor. He used a little humor, good techniques and used time as a friend, not rushing thru just to get finished. He went thru a staging phase for each technique, first slow-mo, then mid speed and then full speed. All the while, explaining the why's and how's of what was happening and giving the do's and don't also. Also throwing in humor in the right places and additionally some legalize tid bits. Very informative and very entertaining. Even to the getting a watcher to do a technique on him, after instruction of course. Not everybody is adept at showcasing their art, but finding someone besides themselves, perhaps a student or even another instructor, who has that ability would be a better solution then given a bad demo.

This is a very good point. Demo's are a way to present your art and need to be paced right, have humor, action and overall be entertaining. Add in some legal responsibilities and you have the opportunity for a first rate demo. Having said all of that Demonstrations in my opinion rarely bring in lots of students unless you somehow managed to attract people that are already interested in the martial arts to your demo.