Video Clips

[MJS]

There are a ton of video clips posted on the web. YouTube and Google, to name a few, provide clips of just about every art out there. Of course, some of these clips are better than others, but if someone wants to post a clip, I suppose they're free to.

Often, during a discussion about an art, someone will either mention a clip or post a clip of the art in question. Many times, it seems like people take what they see on the clip as the final word on how an art is done. They don't look at the clip as perhaps, a teaching segment, but instead, they'll turn around and make an assumption of the art off of that clip. Additionally, many times the people making the judgement, have not spent any time themselves in the art in question. Seems kind of odd to think that you can judge an art just by watching a clip.

So, what do you think? Do you think that video clips help or hurt the image of an art?

 

[CuongNhuka]

There are a ton of video clips of Cuong Nhu on the web. Cuong Nhu includes a large amount of Wing Chun. We wear Karate/Judo Gi's. And there are alot of posts made along the lines of:
"Are these karate people retarded or what? Imposing karate values on other style without a true understanding of other's system is pure idiotic!" Posted on Youtube by mofotox. The name of the clip is Elizabeth Roman Wing Chun 3 Cuong Nhu IATC 2006. If you would like to see everything else.

Anyways. My point is, that idiotic people exist in this world. Youtube is very uncensored. So, posting a video on asite that has admin to kick people off is ok. Youtube is a dangerous thing. Especially since there are morons who have never done martial arts, insulting martial arts that have been proven time and time again.

 

[exile]

Great thread topic, Mike.

I am kind of of two minds about these clips. On the good side, they can show you something of the `style' of the art, exemplifying the way that its practitioners move, and approach each other, and—even if the demos are a bit stagey—how they approach SD issues. On the bad side, it's easy enough to find examples of an art badly performed, and if you want to make the art look bad, you can find plenty of ammo for viewers who forget that you can't measure the art by looking at incompetent practitioners. We've all seen clips like that (the infamous `Art X-vs-Art Y' kind, as though it was art vs. art, not Joe Blow vs. John Doe, out there in the ring).

I guess the idea is, reserve judgment when you look at these things and try not to form any very strong judgments or come to any fixed conclusions about whichever art it is...

 

[kidswarrior]

There are a ton of video clips posted on the web.

Often, during a discussion about an art, someone will either mention a clip or post a clip of the art in question. Many times, it seems like people take what they see on the clip as the final word on how an art is done....they'll turn around and make an assumption of the art off of that clip.... Seems kind of odd to think that you can judge an art just by watching a clip.

So, what do you think? Do you think that video clips help or hurt the image of an art?

A great question in light of the explosion of self-produced video segments, Mike , and all the heat they seem to generate. I think that even though a clip is a 'moving' picture, metaphorically we can think of it as merely a snapshot--a snapshot of an art. I've spent almost 15 years in my art, several teaching it, and still have Aha! moments every day. I really don't see it as possible to effectively reduce those 15 years of Aha's! to a 2-6 minute snapshot that would really communicate the art.

Now, I'm not saying snapshots are bad. I have 5 or 7 photo albums full of thousands of snapshots of kids I've known in my day job when they were in 7th or 8th grade, who are now in their 20s and 30s. It's a kick to remember when, and often a snapshot will jog many further memories of times we shared. But to judge their lives on that one shot--or even a 5 minute video of them--no, I wouldn't think any of us would want to try to get someone else to understand us based on such a clip.

So, a short clip can be helpful as part of a package of understanding. But taken cold, as a stand-alone sample by someone who knows nothing else about the person--or subject--then I believe it definitely would be more harmful than helpful.

 

[CuongNhuka]

On the bad side, it's easy enough to find examples of an art badly performed, and if you want to make the art look bad, you can find plenty of ammo for viewers who forget that you can't measure the art by looking at incompetent practitioners.

And then you get this video (

). Watch the video, then read the 3rd and 4th comments.

 

[exile]

And then you get this video (

). Watch the video, then read the 3rd and 4th comments.

I don't know CN at all, so the following may be sheer ignorant rot. But I got the impression from the get-go that this was very much a choreographed demo, designed to give the audience a feel for the general style of CN. A real fight wouldn't look like this, things obviously would be much speeded up and more ragged and so on. But there is a very distinctive style, and clear differences between hard linear styles like the karate-based arts on the one hand and other `curvilinear' arts like Aikido and many of the CMAs I've seen, and so on, on the other. I mean, how much more can you do in a demo? I got the impression that that's what the fourth comment was getting at, in reply to the third comment, which seemed to reflect a kind of literal-minded belief that this demo was supposed to reflect an actual fight...

 

[CuongNhuka]

My point was to check out that what Sensei Darius (the one giving the demo) could have easily speed up at most parts, and have killed the attacker.

Yes this was a very coregraphed demo. In Cuong Nhu we include self defense sets at all ranks. How ever, these are against the same sets of attacks. (grab straight across, grab opposit, two on one, both hands grabbing both hands, choke, grab both from behind). These are mostly based off Aikido techniques, and can be applied to other situations.
At Black Belt (and all ranks abouve) this changes. You have to come up with the attacks and the defenses. This is msotly to see what your thought process is on self defense, and how to apply the pervious self defense sets and your kata.
He was demonstrating applications to Vovinam kata (which are animal based). Thus, he was on the ground alot. His board breaking demo was also themed on ground fighting.

Whats actually funny about what you said is that Cuong Nhu is based on Shotokan and Judo. Their is large enough amounts of Aikido and Vovinam (also circular) that many students have added a alot of circular footwork.

And, out of curiosity, did you notice the name of the poster of the fourth comment?

 

[exile]

Whats actually funny about what you said is that Cuong Nhu is based on Shotokan and Judo. Their is large enough amounts of Aikido and Vovinam (also circular) that many students have added a alot of circular footwork.

The mix winds up being quite distinctive, clearly! I wouldn't have thought Shotokan at all...

And, out of curiosity, did you notice the name of the poster of the fourth comment?

No, lemme check...

... ah, I see! :lol:

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

My point was to check out that what Sensei Darius (the one giving the demo) could have easily speed up at most parts, and have killed the attacker.

Commenting just on this particular demo here. I fully appreciate that when performing a demonstration, it needs to be slowed down and exaggerated so that people who aren't familiar with style can pick up on the details.
However in this demo, that may have been done far too much, as the attackers seem to mostly resort to running, large grabbing and motions and pushes. This is in no way a criticism of the style, merely saying it would be better portrayed with more realistic attacking motions, even at a slowed down speed.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well everyone knows that I enjoy watching and posting video clips. However I make it a point to really never base my opinion of an art or system off a video clip. I base my opinion of a system based on first hand experiences or in other words meeting and training with somone from that system. Even if I were to get a negative impression from a clip if the chance to train with someone in a system is available I am going to try and take advantage of it.

 

[Tez3]

And then you get this video (

). Watch the video, then read the 3rd and 4th comments.

I have the problem that videos don't play on my computer at full speed, they play literally frame by frame. I can't find a way to remedy this so I'm hoping that when I get my new computer in a couple of months I'll be able to watch things like this. I would like to be able to watch videos of katas that people post up,plus MMA fights properly though watchng frame by frame does have advantages.
The clip I most remember is the 'Ki' fighter challenging and fighting an MMA fighter, it was funny in a very sad sort of way!

 

[qi-tah]

There are a ton of video clips posted on the web. YouTube and Google, to name a few, provide clips of just about every art out there. Of course, some of these clips are better than others, but if someone wants to post a clip, I suppose they're free to.

Often, during a discussion about an art, someone will either mention a clip or post a clip of the art in question. Many times, it seems like people take what they see on the clip as the final word on how an art is done. They don't look at the clip as perhaps, a teaching segment, but instead, they'll turn around and make an assumption of the art off of that clip. Additionally, many times the people making the judgement, have not spent any time themselves in the art in question. Seems kind of odd to think that you can judge an art just by watching a clip.

So, what do you think? Do you think that video clips help or hurt the image of an art?

I dunno... as a bit of a newbie to the delights of youtube, i've been practically gorging myself on all the available MA clips in recent months! Anything on ba gua or xing yi immediately catches my attention, but really, i'm happy to check out just about anything. Who knows, i just might learn something?? *gasp, shock horror*

But how you could think that the last word on any style could be contained within a clip is beyond me. Hell, i'm revising my (very rusty) Taiji 42 form from one of my teacher's training videos... and even though it contains multiple points of veiw (back, side, front) so that you get a good idea of how to form the movements correctly, i'm still finding it hard going. And that is a 30 minute DVD! IMHO, pics and videos are departure points only, often to be taken with a massive sack of salt unless you can back it up with actual experience.

But they are still fun!

 

[CuongNhuka]

The mix winds up being quite distinctive, clearly! I wouldn't have thought Shotokan at all...

From this video, I wouldn't blame you. Most of Cuong Nhu prior to black belt is Shotokan with basic Judo and Aikido. We mostly use Judo to help with applications to kata, and we mostly use the concepts behind Aikido, same with Wing Chun (which for the most part is mostly in the dan ranks). We also include the weapons and animal forms of Vovinam. We also have a bit of Tai Chi Chuan at the dan ranks. We also include boxing, but there isn't much boxing really.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I have the problem that videos don't play on my computer at full speed, they play literally frame by frame. I can't find a way to remedy this so I'm hoping that when I get my new computer in a couple of months I'll be able to watch things like this.

I have the same problem. Something I found helps is to pause the video, it'll load, then you can watch it at full speed.

 

[Kacey]

So, what do you think? Do you think that video clips help or hurt the image of an art?

Like movies featuring a particular art and/or practitioner, video clips can both help and hurt the image of an art.

Look at what The Karate Kid did for - and to - martial arts in the US. Sure, it generated a lot of interest; it also created some incredibly unrealistic expectations in the minds of prospective students.

I see the same thing happening with video clips, but moreso, because the clips are so accessible - students who are interested in MA can browse through clips and get some idea of what practitioners of particular arts can do (which can be both good and bad, depending on the clip) - but like so many other activities that look easy when someone skilled performs it (think ice skaters, dancers, gymnasts, etc.), people choose a class and expect to be able to do the things that skilled, experienced practitioners make look so easy - and don't like it when they can't. In today's "now" society, this keeps a lot of people from staying in classes if they start.

I'm not saying that video clips are the cause of low student retention - but I do think they can give prospective students an unrealistic impression of what MA training really is.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm not a big fan of video clips. OK, I do my share of voyeruism as well, but all in all, I don't think I'd miss it if they all went away. I don't have clips of myself posted, as I don't feel inclined to put that out there. I think these clips push the arts toward the realm of spectacle and showmanship, and I don't feel that is appropriate. I kind of wish the arts could go back underground again, and not be so visible as they have become, bit it's a reality of our society, the arts no longer need to be underground, and they have taken on a different role from what they had generations ago.

 

[MJS]

There are a ton of video clips of Cuong Nhu on the web. Cuong Nhu includes a large amount of Wing Chun. We wear Karate/Judo Gi's. And there are alot of posts made along the lines of:
"Are these karate people retarded or what? Imposing karate values on other style without a true understanding of other's system is pure idiotic!" Posted on Youtube by mofotox. The name of the clip is Elizabeth Roman Wing Chun 3 Cuong Nhu IATC 2006. If you would like to see everything else.

Anyways. My point is, that idiotic people exist in this world. Youtube is very uncensored. So, posting a video on asite that has admin to kick people off is ok. Youtube is a dangerous thing. Especially since there are morons who have never done martial arts, insulting martial arts that have been proven time and time again.

I checked out some of the clips of your art. I saw some of the comments that were left. Its really sad that people have nothing better to do than poke fun at an art that they have no knowledge of.

 

[MJS]

Great thread topic, Mike.

I am kind of of two minds about these clips. On the good side, they can show you something of the `style' of the art, exemplifying the way that its practitioners move, and approach each other, and—even if the demos are a bit stagey—how they approach SD issues. On the bad side, it's easy enough to find examples of an art badly performed, and if you want to make the art look bad, you can find plenty of ammo for viewers who forget that you can't measure the art by looking at incompetent practitioners. We've all seen clips like that (the infamous `Art X-vs-Art Y' kind, as though it was art vs. art, not Joe Blow vs. John Doe, out there in the ring).

I guess the idea is, reserve judgment when you look at these things and try not to form any very strong judgments or come to any fixed conclusions about whichever art it is...

IMO, thats the main problem...people who look at a clip and assume that what they see is what the art is. How can this be??? How can people be so crazy that think that by watching a youtube clip, they're going to know the ins and outs of the system? People take a portion of a clip and run with it. Simply amazing.

 

[MJS]

A great question in light of the explosion of self-produced video segments, Mike , and all the heat they seem to generate. I think that even though a clip is a 'moving' picture, metaphorically we can think of it as merely a snapshot--a snapshot of an art. I've spent almost 15 years in my art, several teaching it, and still have Aha! moments every day. I really don't see it as possible to effectively reduce those 15 years of Aha's! to a 2-6 minute snapshot that would really communicate the art.

Now, I'm not saying snapshots are bad. I have 5 or 7 photo albums full of thousands of snapshots of kids I've known in my day job when they were in 7th or 8th grade, who are now in their 20s and 30s. It's a kick to remember when, and often a snapshot will jog many further memories of times we shared. But to judge their lives on that one shot--or even a 5 minute video of them--no, I wouldn't think any of us would want to try to get someone else to understand us based on such a clip.

So, a short clip can be helpful as part of a package of understanding. But taken cold, as a stand-alone sample by someone who knows nothing else about the person--or subject--then I believe it definitely would be more harmful than helpful.

Another problem, and this is something that drives me crazy, is that people will use video as proof as to whether or not something works. Unless its on tape, it doesnt happen. I say thats bull! Tape is by far, not the deciding factor as to what works and what does not. I dont know about anyone else, but I dont walk around with a camcorder hooked to my belt, so in the event I have some punk try to mug me, I can tell him to wait, hand the camera to the nearest bystander, and tell him to tape the fight. Please.

 

[MJS]

I dunno... as a bit of a newbie to the delights of youtube, i've been practically gorging myself on all the available MA clips in recent months! Anything on ba gua or xing yi immediately catches my attention, but really, i'm happy to check out just about anything. Who knows, i just might learn something?? *gasp, shock horror*

There are some pretty interesting things there.

But how you could think that the last word on any style could be contained within a clip is beyond me. Hell, i'm revising my (very rusty) Taiji 42 form from one of my teacher's training videos... and even though it contains multiple points of veiw (back, side, front) so that you get a good idea of how to form the movements correctly, i'm still finding it hard going. And that is a 30 minute DVD! IMHO, pics and videos are departure points only, often to be taken with a massive sack of salt unless you can back it up with actual experience.

But they are still fun!

Yup, is beyond me too. Watching and basing an opinion off youtube is no different than someone learning the arts from a tape or book. Impossible to really understand whats going on, unless you already have a background in the art.