Deficiencies in WSL teachings

[KPM]

You're a troll . Congratulations, you convinced me to keep trying. Idiotically, I did try.

.

Don't say I didn't warn you!

 

[Dirty Dog]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please return to the original topic and keep it polite. Further name calling and rudeness will result in the thread being locked and infraction points being issued.

 

[Juany118]

I think that any discussion that involves Dantian could not exclude simultaneous discussion of Chi. It is a major chakra in CMA, the Field of Cinnabar, and as such a storage place of Chi. I think yao (waist) is a better topic & less controversial, lol.

Actually I think you can IF you stop for a moment and simply look to where the dantian are located (meaning lower, middle and upper). If you stop looking at them as chakra and instead simply as locations in 3 dimensional space, they maintain their importance, especially in Wing Chun. Those points, when in proper alignment with our feet, are the very foundation of Wing Chun. That synergy creates our Structure.

The lower dantian is also important on its own. Proper breathing is vital for all martial arts if your intent is to engage in real martial combat. Dantian breathing provides the body with more oxygen and thus helps to regulate your heart rate when that hormone dump comes when "fight or flight" kicks in. It is also vital simply in doing the forms and other practice because it helps us relax, find our center and thus have the "flow" necessary to properly execute all of our techniques. Wing Chun is not like many Karate forms when you meet force with force, where you are trying to put your fist "through" the target. We wish to deflect, to flow and find the blind side. We wish to impart our energy into the target instantaneously, but not follow through in the way of many forms of Karate and other arts because if we do, inevitably energy will feed back into our arm and thus our body, disturbing our structure (thank you Issac Newton ) With the dantian breathing relaxing us as we train we develop the muscle memory to also flow when the real fight comes.

They are still important, even vital to martial arts, one simply needs to strip away the philosophy. We have to remember that the reason these centers exist is because the ancients knew of their importance they simply did not have the science to explain why they were important. When you lack that science, you turn to philosophy and metaphysics to define why they are important. This is not to diminish what these ancient masters taught. They were brilliant in that they knew these centers were important, they simply lacked the knowledge to define the true reason why. Copernicus was brilliant in proving the heliocentric model. However he lacked the knowledge to understand what Kepler later did, that the planets had elliptical orbits. This lack of knowledge doesn't diminish his brilliance.

 

[geezer]

...And sometimes, no names need be mentioned, some people just like to argue.

I like to argue. Why else would I hang out on this contentious forum!

 

[geezer]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please return to the original topic and keep it polite. Further name calling and rudeness will result in the thread being locked and infraction points being issued.

Oops. Missed this. I promise I'll be good.

 

[LFJ]

What I posted is what Sifu Niels Pivato obviously feels is a flaw. His comment states that in his previous WSLVT/WT experience, he found that in order for people to make it functional, strength was required. For him, that is obviously an inadequacy, as a softer approach, in his opinion, is lacking.

Besides strength obviously being required to accomplish anything physical, if his VT was not functional without him being stronger than the opponent, then he was doing it wrong and what he thinks is a flaw in VT, is actually a flaw in his understanding.

Sifu Niels Pivato has a fair bit of experience, and he offered a perspective.

Only a few years in VT, and less than 10 in total, but that's just time. It doesn't tell us how much direct instruction he received in that time. From his statement, it seems not much.

How do you bounce someone away with mystical energies? You can't. What is happening is physical. The process is physical, and is trained in a physical way.

You can't bounce someone away without using physical strength at all. This doesn't mean you have to be stronger than them though, if you are using biomechanical leverages to your advantage, but you must transfer your strength into them. Soft energy or whatever won't do it.

Again, if someone doesn't understand this, the flaw is in their understanding (and dreaming), not the system they haven't learned well.

I heard another 1st generation student of WSL (although with very negligible direct experience) talk about turning to Tai Chi to help him learn about soft energy to augment his VT.

This is the video he posted of his teacher, and he told people not to knock things they haven't gone and felt personally.

All I can say to that, is that there are many stupid people in this world.

Do you believe this old man is really able to send this guy hopping 30 yards by giving him a little Qi bump from the belly?

Sergio teaches the same kind of nonsense and talks about Qi as he performs on paralyzed demo dummies. If someone thinks VT is lacking this stuff, that's their retarded opinion, not a system flaw of VT.

 

[LFJ]

Although VT/WC doesn't need ground fighting to be effective, it definitely needs reliable strategies to both defend against a. grapplers who would take you to the ground, and b. to escape and recover from the ground to your standup game if the unexpected occurs. Most lineages of VT/WC do not adequately address both these areas, leaving practitioners vulnerable to a good grappling attack. In my view, that is a deficiency that is best acknowledged and dealt with.

Best acknowledged and dealt with by reinventing the wheel though? Certainly not.

I think VT has enough tools to fight grapplers in standup. If already on the ground though, you should not try to chi-sau the guy or something.

If you try to adapt VT to the ground, that's when its lack of ground game would become a system flaw.

I wouldn't count lack of something outside of what it is designed to do as a system flaw, because it still works as it's supposed to... and it wouldn't be specific to WSLVT anyway.

--Hmmm. Not disagreeing mind you, but if those lineages violate these principles, how can they be universally recognized?

Because they also recognize the same principles, but what they say and do are still directly opposed. They just don't realize it.

 

[guy b.]

Sergio teaches the same kind of nonsense and talks about Qi as he performs on paralyzed demo dummies. If someone thinks VT is lacking this stuff, that's their retarded opinion, not a system flaw of VT.

There is never ever a simple physical discussion about what is happening. Always it is couched in obscure language. When you ask for simplification you are a troll or just don't get it.

Of course all is physical. Things that claim not to be physical, or which look extremely unlikely, are generally tricks or setup situations. When someone tells of the soft style master who can easily control them and neutralise everything they do, well then they should try rolling with a good BJJ black belt or sparring a good boxer/MT fighter or standup grappling a good judo player. In these situations they will also feel completely powerless; nothing they try will work and they will be handled like a child. This is just what happens when someone really good goes against someone not very good. No internal strength or special powers required.

 

[WTchap]

Besides strength obviously being required to accomplish anything physical...

Yes, of course - I don't think anyone has disagreed with this. Sifu Niels Pivato certainly worded his comments incorrectly, but I won't hold his not being a native English speaker against him. He was meaning, of course, what you say below - functionality requiring greater strength (in his opinion) regarding VT.

...if his VT was not functional without him being stronger than the opponent, then he was doing it wrong and what he thinks is a flaw in VT, is actually a flaw in his understanding. Only a few years in VT...

A flaw in his understanding I can accept, but this would also indicate a flaw in his teacher's teachings (I heard he was a direct student of PB, but I don't know that first hand). Years ago on the KungFuMagazine forum, a WSLPBVT student said that it only takes PB a few hours to explain his system and that, following that, you'll see the system the "correct way."

Putting aside the possibility of hyperbole from that person on the other forum, you're saying that Pivato had only a few years in VT. A few years ought to be enough for PB to correct someone's misunderstanding, I would imagine, even if they weren't meeting too frequently (but who knows, maybe they met often).

You can't bounce someone away without using physical strength at all.

Of course. I'm not disagreeing with you on this point.

This doesn't mean you have to be stronger than them though, if you are using biomechanical leverages to your advantage, but you must transfer your strength into them.

I agree that you have to transfer force into them. I think the difference is in how it feels, based on where the force comes from and how it is transferred. The person you engage with feels softer, more relaxed, yet still powerful. The engine is different, is all.

I heard another 1st generation student of WSL (although with very negligible direct experience) talk about turning to Tai Chi to help him learn about soft energy to augment his VT.

I've never met Clive Potter, so I don't know how direct his learning was from WSL. But he's not the first to do this, of course. Hawkins Cheung has also had many, many years of Tai Chi training, and he rates it highly... and he was direct student of Yip Man.

This is the video he posted of his teacher, and he told people not to knock things they haven't gone and felt personally. All I can say to that, is that there are many stupid people in this world. Do you believe this old man is really able to send this guy hopping 30 yards by giving him a little Qi bump from the belly?

No, I don't believe in any of these displays of people being sent hopping back 30 yards, or those videos that have people jumping around like kangaroos, etc. I've met people who claim they can do it, and I've stood there and not needed to move my feet at all.

However, I have experienced nauseating amounts of pain from strikes that seemed to come from very little movement and were issued in a very relaxed way - the effect seeming disproportionate to the apparent effort and movement. I've been sent into the ground like I was on the receiving end of a piledriver, and that was done, also, with a very small and seemingly soft movement. I once received a light-looking slap to a punch that made me not want to look at my arm for fear that I'd see it was broken. And in all of these cases, the teachers were happy to show how they powering their movements. What they were doing with the dantien is not something I've ever seen/felt in WCK. So I'd guess you're also not doing it in WSLVT.

But honestly, I think that none of the above will mean anything to someone who hasn't felt the pain of it, firsthand.

Sergio teaches the same kind of nonsense and talks about Qi as he performs on paralyzed demo dummies. If someone thinks VT is lacking this stuff, that's their retarded opinion, not a system flaw of VT.

I can't ever easily agree with someone who talks about Qi, but I do personally know three people (from two different YM lines of Wing Chun) who have met Sergio and all came away saying that they had huge trouble dealing with him in Chi Sau; that he was very relaxed and soft, seemed to nullify all they did, and seemed to use very little effort to do it all. Sifu Niels Pivato would be the first I've heard of from the WSL lineage to experience this, but I'm pretty sure that Sergio has said there have been other WSL lineage guys who have attended his seminars.

He's happy for anyone to attend, and he's happy to Chi Sau with anyone who wants to. I guess you'd just have to go visit him if you want to know for sure. Heck, have a friend video it and if Sergio's full of $hit, then you'll have an interesting video to upload. He lives in Hong Kong, but each year seems to travel fairly frequently to Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan, all over Europe, etc. I'm sure you could meet him if you wanted to know firsthand. Why not reach out to him? You never know, he might even come to you if he's nearby.

 

[geezer]

@WTchap: now we know YOUR identity:

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/4ea42c6f2c6c4b1cb1d405729d48a5cf/galileo-galilei-cw210g.jpg

Now put away that damned telescope and stop denying that by virtue of his devotion to the doctrine of PB-WSL-VT, LFJ already knows everything worth knowing!

 

[LFJ]

you're saying that Pivato had only a few years in VT. A few years ought to be enough for PB to correct someone's misunderstanding, I would imagine, even if they weren't meeting too frequently (but who knows, maybe they met often).

Or maybe they met once at a seminar a few years ago. I don't know the guy, but that's what it sounds like. A time period tells us nothing about their experience in that time.

As to the rest, I'm not at all interested in what Sergio does or other demo styles.

 

[WTchap]

Or maybe they met once at a seminar a few years ago. I don't know the guy, but that's what it sounds like. A time period tells us nothing about their experience in that time.

Well, his website has now been updated to reference Sergio's organisation (via a logo), but the site's metadata on Google still references the old page(s) - and those indicate that he was teaching VT from Philipp Bayer.

I don't suppose PB would allow someone to teach using his name, if they'd only met once at a seminar.

As to the rest, I'm not at all interested in what Sergio does or other demo styles.

I guess that's a subtle way of saying that you wouldn't meet him to test/see if he has something or not. Certainly, it's easier to attack him "online" as teaching nonsense, than it is to meet him and try your luck (and system) face to face


@geezer No... my beard is never so bushy.

 

[LFJ]

I don't suppose PB would allow someone to teach using his name, if they'd only met once at a seminar.

Of course not, but you'd be surprised how often that has happened.

I guess that's a subtle way of saying that you wouldn't meet him to test/see if he has something or not. Certainly, it's easier to attack him "online" as teaching nonsense, than it is to meet him and try your luck (and system) face to face

I'm not compelled to go out of my way to meet Fang Ning either (the old belly bouncing guy in the video above), and people have said the same things.

 

[WTchap]

Of course not, but you'd be surprised how often that has happened.

But still, as both he and PB are based in Germany, and I think he's probably trained with PB more than once in 3 or so years, you'd think...

I'm not compelled to go out of my way to meet Fang Ning either (the old belly bouncing guy in the video above), and people have said the same things.

Yes, personally I wouldn't go looking for Fang Ning either.

But with Sergio... I'd imagine you'd get more out of it. But, sometimes people don't like to challenge their worldview, you know? You've invested a lot of time, I'm guessing, in the WSLVT method you train (and promote here)...

... and so, to steal a line from Alexander McQueen: "I never look at other people's work. My mind has to be completely focused on my own illusions."

 

[LFJ]

As I said, I don't know the guy, but judging by his statements, if he thinks VT only works if you're stronger than the opponent then it leaves his experience very questionable.

Ha, I look at what Sergio does. It just does not impress, and so I'm not compelled to go out of my way for it. Just like with Fang Ning.

Others have impressed or interested me and I have sought them out and changed views where warranted. So I'm not professionally or emotionally invested or married to anything, but if videos show obvious nonsense, I'm not gonna waste my time going to look for it.

 

[guy b]

Yes, personally I wouldn't go looking for Fang Ning either.

But with Sergio... I'd imagine you'd get more out of it.

Why would you imagive that? It looks like just the same kind of thing.

 

[WTchap]

Why would you imagive that? It looks like just the same kind of thing.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear earlier.

Following your earlier inability to understand anything internal art-related, and your outright refusal to speak about the Yiquan that you say you train (ahuh), I'm done replying to your trolling comments. So there's no need for you to quote anything I've said and ask yet more questions.

I have no interest in your bull$hit - you're a charlatan. Go knock yourself out trolling someone else.

 

[guy b]

Following your earlier inability to understand anything internal art-related, and your outright refusal to speak about the Yiquan that you say you train, I'm done replying

I'm very sorry you feel that way. I certainly have a good understanding of Yiquan, having trained it for several years with a very good teacher. I have answered questions about Yiquan on the thread about Yiquan. I am however keen not to provide information to people whose interest is not honest, because the best way to discourage trolling is not to participate.

Trolling is trying to elicit a response for entertainment or other purposes. I am not interested in doing this. Judging from your posts to LFJ on this thread, it looks like you might be.

 

[geezer]

.... the best way to discourage trolling is not to participate.

Yep. You are quite right.

Incidentally, this is exactly why some of our most respected members have not responded to some of your questions in the past. Just something we all need to keep in mind.

 

[KPM]

Or maybe they met once at a seminar a few years ago. I don't know the guy, but that's what it sounds like. A time period tells us nothing about their experience in that time.

As to the rest, I'm not at all interested in what Sergio does or other demo styles.

How do the various videos of PB slapping students around who are giving him very little resistance NOT also qualify as a "demo style"???