Defending the weak

[zDom]

A lot of discussion goes on about self defense, but very often I have a completely different concern: being on guard not to defend myself, but others that may need it.

Now this can be a slippery slope: you certainly don't want to get involved in situations that are not your business.

And you better REALLY think about getting in the middle of a public domestic dispute, as these are THE most dangerous conflicts to become entangled in (just ask any LEO: one minute they are defending the "victim," the next minute they are defending themselves against the victim while trying to arrest the perp!).

But I'm talking about situations in which you see an elderly person in a public situation with potential predators. When I am out with my grandfolks, my parents, my children, my significant other, I always feel "on guard," marking potential threats, placing myself inbetween them and potential dangers, etc.

Especially with children: dangers can range from them wandering off to abduction attempts to them stepping in front of a mini-van (almost happened to my daughter! Luckily I WAS on point and within reach, and jerked her back by placing my hand on her shoulder...).

With my grandparents it often takes the form of watching for uneven pavement, steps and inclines and such.

But I even keep my eye out for elderly, disabled or just plain weak folk who LOOK like a victim waiting to be victimized.

It is mostly a matter of thinking and observing: carefully defusing a situation is MUCH more effective than puffing your chest out, assuming a fighting stance or scowling up and calling someone out because they are looking at a lady who doesn't want to be stared at.

Are you prepared and aware enough to be a defender of the weak? Can you walk that fine line between being ready and getting involved when and where you shouldn't?

I'm not sure I am, but then I do my best to be prepared mentally and to keep my eyes open.

Thoughts?

 

[Drac]

And you better REALLY think about getting in the middle of a public domestic dispute, as these are THE most dangerous conflicts to become entangled in (just ask any LEO: one minute they are defending the "victim," the next minute they are defending themselves against the victim while trying to arrest the perp!).

Happens more often than you can imagine..Now if you see a female being beaten my a male husband or not on duty or not I'm stepping in..

But I'm talking about situations in which you see an elderly person in a public situation with potential predators.

The safety of the elderly SHOULD be everyones concern..Besides it being someones Mom, Dad or Grandparents WE will be there someday..

Especially with children: dangers can range from them wandering off to abduction attempts to them stepping in front of a mini-van (almost happened to my daughter! Luckily I WAS on point and within reach, and jerked her back by placing my hand on her shoulder.

Yes..We ALL need to be aware..Dangers to children are at an alarming high..

But I even keep my eye out for elderly, disabled or just plain weak folk who LOOK like a victim waiting to be victimized

Nothing wrong with that..

It is mostly a matter of thinking and observing: carefully defusing a situation is MUCH more effective than puffing your chest out, assuming a fighting stance or scowling up and calling someone out

Sometimes that's all it takes..

Are you prepared and aware enough to be a defender of the weak? Can you walk that fine line between being ready and getting involved when and where you shouldn't?

Not an easy task for anyone citizen or LEO..

I'm not sure I am, but then I do my best to be prepared mentally and to keep my eyes open

That's all that anyone can ask of you...Willingness to act..

 

[exile]

That's all that anyone can ask of you...Willingness to act..

You rock, zDom, and Drac is absolutely right---it is, after all, just the Golden Rule in action---isn't that what we ourselves would want from others? As Drac noted, we're all (if we're lucky) gonna be there someday...

...amazing, how far that simple little Golden Rule gets you, eh?

 

[Kacey]

A lot of discussion goes on about self defense, but very often I have a completely different concern: being on guard not to defend myself, but others that may need it.

This is something any moral person should be doing... and not nearly enough people do. It was the source of the boy scout pledge to do a good deed every day - often made fun of, with skits about scouts helping elderly ladies across the street who didn't want to go - but a good moral grounding for any person. Too many children are not taught to look out for anyone but themselves.

Now this can be a slippery slope: you certainly don't want to get involved in situations that are not your business.

Indeed... on the other hand, the perpetrator who attacks someone else may come after the observers next.

And you better REALLY think about getting in the middle of a public domestic dispute, as these are THE most dangerous conflicts to become entangled in (just ask any LEO: one minute they are defending the "victim," the next minute they are defending themselves against the victim while trying to arrest the perp!).

Cell phones are one of the greatest tools here - I have more tools at my disposal than most people, but I also know when I am out of my depth, and when to call for help.

But I'm talking about situations in which you see an elderly person in a public situation with potential predators. When I am out with my grandfolks, my parents, my children, my significant other, I always feel "on guard," marking potential threats, placing myself inbetween them and potential dangers, etc.

This is somewhere else to be careful - it can be not taken seriously, ignored, or backfire, all of which can create a greater threat than originally existed.

Especially with children: dangers can range from them wandering off to abduction attempts to them stepping in front of a mini-van (almost happened to my daughter! Luckily I WAS on point and within reach, and jerked her back by placing my hand on her shoulder...).

Too many parents are unaware of the dangers that exist for children. A couple of years ago, I was in the local grocery store, and was hit from behind by a nerf-type ball. When I turned around, it was a girl of perhaps 6, playing with her brother of perhaps 3, both maybe 5 feet away. I asked where their parents were, and she just looked at me. I told her I didn't like being hit with a ball, and asked again. Still without speaking, she grabbed her brother and left, saying "let's go to daddy". I watched to be sure they were going to an adult, and then I reported them to the manager of the store, finished my purchase, and went out to my car. An SUV pulled up, and the man started yelling at me for daring to speak to his children - seems that he felt being in the diagonally opposite corner of a large grocery store constituted "supervision", in contradiction to what the manager had apparently said to him. I pointed out how easily I could have grabbed one or both of them (they'd been pretty close to the door, and it was one of those openings with no door in it) and how often have you seen a woman carrying a screaming child and dragging another, and thought nothing of it? The guy then told me he'd discipline his kids his own way, no one had been hurt by the ball, which had been put back (it belonged to the store; it was still in the wrapping) and how dare I speak to his kids, and then peeled out of the lot, narrowly missing a stroller with twins in it... I just hope he didn't take it out on the kids later; I couldn't see his plate and certainly wasn't going to chase his SUV down the street.

With my grandparents it often takes the form of watching for uneven pavement, steps and inclines and such.

True. Such hazards should be looked for, those in the immediate area warned, and those responsible for maintenance notified - and not just for the elderly and disabled, either.

But I even keep my eye out for elderly, disabled or just plain weak folk who LOOK like a victim waiting to be victimized.

It is mostly a matter of thinking and observing: carefully defusing a situation is MUCH more effective than puffing your chest out, assuming a fighting stance or scowling up and calling someone out because they are looking at a lady who doesn't want to be stared at.

Very true. Responses should be proportional to the situation.

Are you prepared and aware enough to be a defender of the weak? Can you walk that fine line between being ready and getting involved when and where you shouldn't?

I try... like everyone else, sometimes my attempt goes wrong.

I'm not sure I am, but then I do my best to be prepared mentally and to keep my eyes open.

Definitely.

Thoughts?

See above. GREAT topic.

 

[shesulsa]

I've learned that presence and observation work very well, mostly. I just drove up on a fist fight between two women about a week ago, one looked like a young girl and the other is a mom I recognize from the school circuit. I pulled up next to them with my window open - their hands were empty and I gambled that they weren't packing. One was clearly drunk, the other not, but bleeding. I asked if all was okay and if she needed police.

It seemed that having someone there watching and ready to call police seemed to diffuse the fight. Then one of them challenged another woman right in front of me. So I put my vehicle in park - she heard that and backed off.

I've seen people contemplate what appears to be assault, robbery, vandalism, but once they see someone watching them and who doesn't run away, they usually stop.

This is a gamble on a fight I might not want, I know, but someone has to take a stand instead of running. The police can't be everywhere all the time. We are each other's keepers whether we like it or not.

Good thread!

 

[searcher]

I am of the opinion that with CCW laws it is now easier to defend the weak, btu it also has a greater risk of getting out of control. Nothing deters some thug like a .40 stuck to their temple. If you do have a CCW permit please use your judgement and make sure you know what is going on before getting involved.

911-always a good option.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Got to pick your fights carefully because you aren't going to win them all.

If you are not there to see the situation develop you do not know the situation.

 

[Drac]

The police can't be everywhere all the time. We are each other's keepers whether we like it or not

Well said Shesulsa

 

[exile]

We are each other's keepers whether we like it or not.

One of the sources of the kinds of horrific events that people have brought up on many of the threads here is the loss of that sense the we are each other's keepers, that we all need to be looking out for each other. Long-established neighborhoods where people have known each other---and each other's families---for many years, or even generations, tend to have much lower street-crime rates than (even very prosperous) neighborhoods made up of next-door strangers, regardless of police presence (or absence). The dark side of the social and physical mobility that we take for granted is that we are much more likely to be living in the latter kind of community than the former. So we pretty much have to consciously decide that we are going to look out for each other even if we aren't all that sure of who each other are...

 

[jks9199]

This is a broad topic; some things are everyone's civic and moral duty, such as reporting dangerous situations like cracked sidewalks or inoperative traffic lights. And they carry little personal risk to report.

But getting involved in other situations is a different question. It carries a bigger personal risk. Sometimes the best action is to notify the appropriate professionals (call the cops, call for rescue/fire fighters, notify the gas company or child protective services, and so on). Other times, the only moral choice is to act directly -- but you've got to be aware of all the factors. I just got done spending an afternoon with my one year old niece. Let's say that while we were outside, I saw a person get attacked. I'm a cop; I even had cuffs and credentials on me. BUT I also had a one year old that I was responsible for. Guess what? My first act would have been calling 911 -- not jumping into the fray. Another issue -- a colleague of mine told how he was on his way to a plainclothes operation recently, when he saw another LEO in a fight. He (of course) stopped and helped -- but when other uniformed officers responded -- they thought HE was the bad guy! After all, he was in civilian clothes, and all they knew was that the guy in the uniform needed help. Cops have been shot by cops because they weren't recognized when they took action off duty. You're no help to anyone else if you're "aid" increases everyone's risk!

If I'm out in a mall or library or wherever, and I see a youngster wandering off -- I tend to block their path while I try to locate mommy or daddy; I'm cautious about grabbing some kid, for fairly obvious reasons. Similarly, I see something happening off duty, my first choice is a phone call and being a good witness, unless I can intervene reasonably safely (for myself AND those around and with me!) or the alternative is to let someone die or be seriously injured.

Of course, I've lost track of how many times I've stopped at a wreck off duty and gotten people out of the road while calling for the working cops...

 

[Darksoul]

-Really good topic! I wanted to add an example in connection with being eachother's keeper. Last night at the club I frequent, I witnessed two guys shoving eachother on the dancefloor. My first reaction was to get inbetween the two, then thinking kicked in, so I first made sure I had the bartender's attention, then I stepped up to the two guys, but not directly between them. Told them both to back off and calm down. Someone came up and guided one of them off to the bar while I stood there listening to the other guy, then keeping myself between both of them. Right after that the bouncer was there, even the Dj got on the mic and yelled at the two. He was rather upset they were killing his dancefloor. To me its important in these situations, as in the martial arts, to be aware of your surroundings, and be prepared. Can't stress that enough. Even if I don't care too much for people in the situation, I believe its important to bring peace to their lives.

A--->

 

[still learning]

Hello, NO two situtions will be the same. Always trust your INTINCTS ON THIS!

At times it is better to call the police and be a good witness and first aid person.

Domestic...best to stay out of it! ...even the police will not break up,(the physcial) part unless two officers are present,( in alot of situtions).

It is very common for the officer to stop the husband from beating the wife only to have the wife attack the officer,(many police officers get themselves killed), when alone.

This will always be a judgement call....when to help and when to call police and when to get involved.......Each state has different laws...study yours well on this area...........Aloha

 

[funnytiger]

I get the reason for your post and I commend you on bringing up this topic. However, statements like this:

Now this can be a slippery slope: you certainly don't want to get involved in situations that are not your business.

REALLY piss me off. There are too many people out there who think along those lines. There are so many cases throughout the years where if someone had just MADE it their business someone would still be alive today.

I believe we ARE each others business as human beings, but this is always a sore subject with me. My girlfriend and I have gotten in a few arguments about this. She thinks its "none of our business" as well.

I'm not saying jump in physically into every situation that may arise, but we have a moral responsibility to each other, IMO.

- ft

 

[bydand]

One of the sources of the kinds of horrific events that people have brought up on many of the threads here is the loss of that sense the we are each other's keepers, that we all need to be looking out for each other. Long-established neighborhoods where people have known each other---and each other's families---for many years, or even generations, tend to have much lower street-crime rates than (even very prosperous) neighborhoods made up of next-door strangers, regardless of police presence (or absence). The dark side of the social and physical mobility that we take for granted is that we are much more likely to be living in the latter kind of community than the former. So we pretty much have to consciously decide that we are going to look out for each other even if we aren't all that sure of who each other are...

My family has been so blessed that the last couple of places we have lived HAVE been the small, old style neighborhood. While in Michigan we lived in a small town I grew up in years ago. It still had that neighborhood spirit, I knew my neighbors on all sides of me within a month of moving in. Here in Maine, everybody knows everybody in town. It truely is like having 300 parents for kids here. My kids know they can just walk into every house between our house and the school or downtown if somebody is giving them a hard time, or acting strange. This is a little tiny town that really does look out for each other; no matter who you are, or how much you make.

This is a great thread!

 

[Bigshadow]

I am of the opinion that with CCW laws it is now easier to defend the weak, btu it also has a greater risk of getting out of control. Nothing deters some thug like a .40 stuck to their temple. If you do have a CCW permit please use your judgement and make sure you know what is going on before getting involved.

I certainly wouldn't be sticking a .40 against someone's temple. Although though, I understand the sentiment of your statement, I do believe the context you used it would be considered brandishing in most places, which will get the CCW person in trouble. Secondly, putting a gun to someone's temple really isn't a tactically advantageous place to be.

 

[CoryKS]

Great thread. I think that we do need to be alert to whether we can help. It could be as simple as letting a person know that there is someone who is alert to their actions and is able to interfere with their plans, whether by force or by alerting the officials. Carrying a cell phone is important, preferably one with a camera. Also make sure you have your local emergency numbers on hand.

If somebody else confronts another person(s) who is out of line, a show of support can help a lot. I took my son to a neighborhood park a while back. There were some yoots hanging out at the shelter next to the playground, acting out and swearing loudly. There were five or six other parents there, clearly biting their tongues. I asked the kids to please watch their language around the younger ones. They just scowled at me until all the other parents started chiming in. Finally they just apologized and walked away.

If we rely 100% on the police for keeping the peace, then the only place there will be peace is within sight of a police officer.

 

[MJS]

Mod Note

Thread moved to General Self Defense.

Mike Slosek
MT Supermod

 

[exile]

My family has been so blessed that the last couple of places we have lived HAVE been the small, old style neighborhood. While in Michigan we lived in a small town I grew up in years ago. It still had that neighborhood spirit, I knew my neighbors on all sides of me within a month of moving in. Here in Maine, everybody knows everybody in town. It truely is like having 300 parents for kids here. My kids know they can just walk into every house between our house and the school or downtown if somebody is giving them a hard time, or acting strange. This is a little tiny town that really does look out for each other; no matter who you are, or how much you make.

Bydand---you're very lucky in your situation---I suspect that there are fewer and fewer of these places all the time. (The great problem in many cases is gentrification: people with lots of $$$ from big cities looking for quite rustic country retreats often add up to real estate prices that drive out the locals (or more typically, their children who can no longer afford to live in those places)).

The problem is, if one doesn't live in that sort of place, how can you go about creating the same kind of... what to call it? `Mutual vigilance'? Something along those lines, anyway... that your family enjoys by virtue of generations living in the same place? Especially when it's not that unusual for people to move away after no more than five years or so in a single locale. Neighborhood Watch groups are probably a step in the right direction, but it's not the same thing. In the town you're describing, people sort of know without even having to discuss it, probably, when something is amiss or there's a threatening element. Without some steps in that direction, I suspect we are all going to find ourselves feeling less and less secure, simply because there's no one we can depend on to look out for us.

This is a great thread!

Sure is!

 

[matt.m]

Gee, in the Marine Corps I always tried to help the kids in Haiti, Albania, Liberia, Tunisia. I have awards for doing what would get most people thrown in court. Different rule set though.

However, one occassion jumps out in my mind.....3 yrs. ago my wife and I were leaving our apartment in Maryland Heights, MO. I heard a high pitched scream followed by a woman being thrown out a door with Bluto following right behind. He punched her in the head while following her.

I told him to stop, my wife was punching the 911 on the cell. He turned his attention to me. He said a very inconsiderate explitive to me, advanced, swung and learned what falling on asphalt via sweeping hip throw was all about.

I put him in a wrist lock and held him under control. Cops got there and took him off after they found out what happened.

I hate people that cause harm to kids and women, geesh. I figured I was being nice to him. The cops didn't care one iota that I hurt him badly, it was in the defense of someone that obviously couldn't protect themself.

It just drives me up the wall to see people act out in anger against people smaller or weaker than themselves.

 

[jks9199]

I get the reason for your post and I commend you on bringing up this topic. However, statements like this:



REALLY piss me off. There are too many people out there who think along those lines. There are so many cases throughout the years where if someone had just MADE it their business someone would still be alive today.

I believe we ARE each others business as human beings, but this is always a sore subject with me. My girlfriend and I have gotten in a few arguments about this. She thinks its "none of our business" as well.

I'm not saying jump in physically into every situation that may arise, but we have a moral responsibility to each other, IMO.

- ft

Excellent point. I do not advocate INACTION -- but chosen action. Sometimes, the best, wisest, and safest action is simply picking up the phone and calling for the police, without telling the people that you're doing so. In other cases, you might warn them "I'm calling the cops!" And, sometimes, the best thing that you can do is to stay safe, make that call if you're able (cell phone or whatever), and stick around to tell the police what happened.

Similarly, when you discuss a hazard like cracked pavement, you could mix up a batch of concrete, and try to patch it yourself. But unless you know what you're doing, you might make the situation worse! But, if it's debris in a local roadway (NOT AN INTERSTATE HIGHWAY), and you can safely pull it out of the road... Hey, why not take two minutes and do that? I've been irritated beyond belief when a broken down car causes mile long backups because nobody's willing to help the person push it into a parking lot 10 feet away...