Choking older folks....

[wab25]

I have a new student... she is 74 years old. She has a lot of Karate back ground and wants to participate in everything. However, we are going very slowly with her, in introducing throws and we go very lightly on her with any kind of joint lock.

I have been avoiding doing chokes when she shows up... as she will want to participate. Normally, my student gets to experience being uke, before they learn to do the technique. I like them to feel what they are supposed to be doing to the other guy... and to understand why they may want to use some control... your partner will be matching your intensity... With most students, I am able to learn their ability to take things... and then I can put on the technique or throw in a way that makes them uncomfortable, but still under control so that it is safe.

However, I thought I would seek the advice of the more experienced grapplers and chokers here... Should a 74 year old be choked? I would not choke her out completely, like I would for the younger folks... But, should she be choked at all, at her age? Should I teach someone a technique that they cannot take? Should she learn to choke others in the case that she should not be choked herself?

Just looking for some advice as I try to figure out how to deal with age and choking....

Thanks in advance.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah I wouldn't.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You should not be routinely choking out students of any age. It is not necessary and generally doesn't teach them anything.
You are making unwarranted assumptions about what she can "take".
Talk to her about your concerns. The risk to her may not be any higher than it is when you're uke.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You can easily teach her how to choke someone without anyone actually being choked out. When they feel the pressure they stop, and she's old enough (and experienced enough) you should trust her not to go too far without having experienced it against herself. No idea medically what the risks are, but I'd imagine that they're non-zero, so too high to risk.

 

[drop bear]

Get her to choke you out twice as much to make up fir her not getting a go.

 

[skribs]

I know there's rumors about links between BJJ and strokes, so I wouldn't choke someone who is at an age much more at risk for a stroke. I also would just be careful around the neck in general.

This is a similar concept as the topic of "should someone be held back from promotion because they can never do something." An example would be a Taekwondoist who cannot do a jump spinning kick. Another example would be in BJJ, where the concepts are every 10 years older or every 25 pounds lighter than your opponent is roughly equal to a belt color (assuming we're talking about older adults and muscle mass).

I think people should generally give what they're able to get. If she shouldn't be choked out (which she probably shouldn't be), then she shouldn't choke out her partners (which she shouldn't be anyway).

 

[wab25]

You should not be routinely choking out students of any age. It is not necessary and generally doesn't teach them anything.
You are making unwarranted assumptions about what she can "take".
Talk to her about your concerns. The risk to her may not be any higher than it is when you're uke.

To be clear... We do not choke students out completely on a regular basis.

We do apply chokes, until they tap quite often. Every once in a while, a choke may come on faster than expected, causing a panic tap... sometimes the student needs to take a minute... but this is rare.

My concern was whether taking older people to a tap out, with a choke was "safe," like it would be for younger folks. In taking a person to a tap out, you are still restricting the blood flow and then releasing... I have heard many people talk about this being less safe at older ages... but not being in the medical field, I thought I would rather ask the dumb question...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just looking for some advice as I try to figure out how to deal with age and choking....

I wouldn't be doing anything to someone 74 that would involve a manual change in their air flow or blood flow. There may a variety of health issues where doing so could turn out really bad. Even with myself and my high blood pressure, I tap out way before the choke sets in. I tap when I feel the squeeze. There's no need for me to try to fight out of it after that point. If I can't escape before the squeeze then I just except it as "I should have been better escaping."

I'm 50 years old and I'm not getting choked beyond a squeeze that tells me which direction things are going. If it's like this for me at 50 then I can imagine the challenges at 74. Age just makes things really unpredictable. She's "a machine" that has been running 74 years non stop. There's just no telling what may break or when. The risk-benefit just isn't good. All high risks and no real benefit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I thought I would rather ask the dumb question...

If you are asking then it's not dumb. It's only dumb when you find yourself in the situation where you say "I should have asked." I'm not in the medical field but I'm 50 with high blood pressure, so for my own safety there are things that I have to really be more cautious with.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think people should generally give what they're able to get. If she shouldn't be choked out (which she probably shouldn't be), then she shouldn't choke out her partners (which she shouldn't be anyway).

I don't think it will hurt her to learn how to put someone in a choke hold. Just because she couldn't be put in one doesn't mean she can't learn how to apply one. I had a student who didn't want to be hit. She still sparred with us. Whenever students sparred with here they went on 100% defense meaning that they had to count a lot on their movement and guard to avoid or prevent her strikes from landing. She gets the exercise of sparring and the other students get the benefit or really working on their defense and footwork.

My ultimate thing is that I wouldn't want anyone to feel responsible for anyone who train then went home and died. Or even worst. died on during training. In this case the benefits don't out way the risk in any shape or form.

 

[wab25]

You are making unwarranted assumptions about what she can "take".
Talk to her about your concerns. The risk to her may not be any higher than it is when you're uke.

I wouldn't be doing anything to someone 74 that would involve a manual change in their air flow or blood flow. There may a variety of health issues where doing so could turn out really bad.

Same thread, same question... two answers that are completely opposite.

To be honest... I have always heard that there is more risk with age... but I have never heard that from anyone with medical training. I believe Dog has experience in the medic al field?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Same thread, same question... two answers that are completely opposite.

To be honest... I have always heard that there is more risk with age... but I have never heard that from anyone with medical training. I believe Dog has experience in the medic al field?

You could say that. 40+ years as an ER/Flight nurse with an MS in Physiology.

This is not something anybody has studied. Not in the slightest.

Strokes are basically caused by one of two mechanisms; bleeding into the brain, or occluding blood flow. The fear people have is that applying a blood choke will cause a stroke.

The problem with this fear is that blood chokes don't actually occlude blood flow. They trigger a vasovagal response. It's the same mechanism as when you 'stand up too fast' and get light headed. The symptoms are caused by transient bradycardia (slow heart rate) and hypotension (low blood pressure). Neither of which is a risk factor for stroke.

Is there a risk in applying chokes? Yes, of course there is. But history has shown us that it's really quite minimal.

Is there a greater risk to the elderly? Maybe. Maybe not. In general, probably not. But it would be very much dependent on the specific persons medical history, and the safe answer if they ask their PCP is "don't do it". Not because there's any identifiable risk, but because there is zero science on the subject, and we live in an era when the Lawsuit Lottery is viewed as a viable retirement plan by many.

 

[wab25]

So... not being in the medical field.... one of the popular explanations for a blood choke is that you are not closing off the arteries but the veins. You are preventing the blood from leaving the brain, which in turn prevents new blood from coming in. What would be your take on this?

The other is that if you excite the nerve bundle, that sits between the artery and vein in the neck, the one that controls the blood supply to the brain... it gets confused, thinking there is too much pressure on the brain and it dumps blood from the brain.

The part that gets a little confusing is that if you are closing off the vein, to prevent the blood from leaving... then also exciting the nerve to cause the blood to drain would be countered by the vein being closed....

If I understand you correctly (which I may not... software engineer here) are you saying that neither the blood going in or going out is actually stopped?

Thanks again for the medical perspective here.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So... not being in the medical field.... one of the popular explanations for a blood choke is that you are not closing off the arteries but the veins. You are preventing the blood from leaving the brain, which in turn prevents new blood from coming in. What would be your take on this?

The other is that if you excite the nerve bundle, that sits between the artery and vein in the neck, the one that controls the blood supply to the brain... it gets confused, thinking there is too much pressure on the brain and it dumps blood from the brain.

The part that gets a little confusing is that if you are closing off the vein, to prevent the blood from leaving... then also exciting the nerve to cause the blood to drain would be countered by the vein being closed....

If I understand you correctly (which I may not... software engineer here) are you saying that neither the blood going in or going out is actually stopped?

Thanks again for the medical perspective here.

That is correct. "Blood chokes" have little or no impact on actual blood flow. Bear in mind that there are actually SIX jugular veins. While it is relatively easy to occlude the external jugulars on either side, the internals are another matter entirely. And the internal jugulars carry most of the blood. Even if you occlude both external jugulars, the remaining four can take up the slack.

Occluding any artery is much more difficult, and the carotids are much deeper than most people realize. There's a thing called an Allen Test, which used to be commonly used to verify collateral circulation to the hand before doing an arterial stick in the radial artery. You pinch off the radial and ulnar arteries, then release the ulnar. If the hand pinks up with just the ulnar flow, then collateral circulation is fine. This test requires both hands, and a fair bit of grip strength. There are plenty of Respiratory Therapists who cannot do it. And it's pretty much impossible to do it if the person tightens the forearms muscles.

We commonly place central lines in the internal jugular or femoral veins using ultrasound guidance. Anatomically, the corresponding artery is in pretty much the same place. In theory, veins overly the artery, but in practice, the body position matters, an anatomy isn't that perfect. How do we know which one to poke? The easy answer is to push on the ultrasound probe. The vein will collapse. The artery, not so much.

As I said, blood chokes work by triggering transient bradycardia and hypotension. Same thing that happens when you strike the solar plexus. Or when people strain to poop (which is why bathroom syncope [fainting] is the #1 most common type of syncope). Or when people lift really heavy weights.

 

[Buka]

Everyone is different, especially older people.

That being said, if she's healthy enough to train, she's healthy enough to teach how to choke out others. Starting with the person teaching her. I see no need for her to get choked herself.

Something to be careful off, older folks have thinner skin and bruise very easy. If she's being taught how to stop the opponent from breaking the choke, when he/she digs their hands/fingers into the choking arm, she's probably going to have some nasty purple bruising.

 

[wab25]

That is correct. "Blood chokes" have little or no impact on actual blood flow. Bear in mind that there are actually SIX jugular veins. While it is relatively easy to occlude the external jugulars on either side, the internals are another matter entirely. And the internal jugulars carry most of the blood. Even if you occlude both external jugulars, the remaining four can take up the slack.

Occluding any artery is much more difficult, and the carotids are much deeper than most people realize. There's a thing called an Allen Test, which used to be commonly used to verify collateral circulation to the hand before doing an arterial stick in the radial artery. You pinch off the radial and ulnar arteries, then release the ulnar. If the hand pinks up with just the ulnar flow, then collateral circulation is fine. This test requires both hands, and a fair bit of grip strength. There are plenty of Respiratory Therapists who cannot do it. And it's pretty much impossible to do it if the person tightens the forearms muscles.

We commonly place central lines in the internal jugular or femoral veins using ultrasound guidance. Anatomically, the corresponding artery is in pretty much the same place. In theory, veins overly the artery, but in practice, the body position matters, an anatomy isn't that perfect. How do we know which one to poke? The easy answer is to push on the ultrasound probe. The vein will collapse. The artery, not so much.

As I said, blood chokes work by triggering transient bradycardia and hypotension. Same thing that happens when you strike the solar plexus. Or when people strain to poop (which is why bathroom syncope [fainting] is the #1 most common type of syncope). Or when people lift really heavy weights.

Thanks for the great explanations!

Choking must be another one of those things that work, even though our understanding of it is wrong.... kind of like flying and Bernoulli's principle.... So far though, the choking explanations, even though wrong, seem to help folks understand choking better than Bernoulli helps people understand flight.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Everyone is different, especially older people.

That being said, if she's healthy enough to train, she's healthy enough to teach how to choke out others. Starting with the person teaching her. I see no need for her to get choked herself.

Something to be careful off, older folks have thinner skin and bruise very easy. If she's being taught how to stop the opponent from breaking the choke, when he/she digs their hands/fingers into the choking arm, she's probably going to have some nasty purple bruising.

The OP made it clear that this students has a fairly extensive striking history, so I really don't think this is likely to be a big deal.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm an older folks. I just had an ultrasound on my carotid arteries as part of the treatment and testing for my heart disease. Apparently I am about average for a person my age - "Mild atherosclerotic disease is seen in the left & right carotid artery bifurcation region / proximal internal carotid artery causing less than 30% diameter narrowing, with normal flow hemodynamics."

Since blood chokes are the carotid arteries, I don't think I want to experience being choked out again. I've been choked out, I know what it feels like. I've done blood chokes when I was a Marine MP, although I am no expert. Given that many people my age have some blockages in their carotid arteries, I'd advise against it. But I am not a doctor or an expert on chokes. I'm just old and somewhat less healthy than I was.

EDIT: I'm also on blood thinners, as are many people with heart disease. Bruising is a Bad Thing in terms of good and bad. I just had a routine blood draw for my diabetes and the inside of my arm is black and blue like someone went at it with a chainsaw.

 

[Hyoho]

I am older and often choke and nobody even touches me!

 

[Dirty Dog]

Since blood chokes are the carotid arteries,

No, they're not.