Dan ranks of high level coaches and competitors

andyjeffries

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I know some people are "done" with dan ranks and don't consider them important and I know they're a lot less important to competitors past 1st Dan, but I wondered if anyone knew the Kukkiwon Dan ranks of the following people (who are all coaches or competitors/ex-competitors):

Jean, Diana, Mark and Steven Lopez
LEE Han Won
Juan Moreno
Yang Jin Bang
Arlene Limas
Herb Perez
CHUNG Kuk Hyun
MOON Dae Sung

I just wondered whether competitors and coaches bother getting higher Dan ranks or whether they just get 1st Dan then consider their martial art side "done" as they have the qualification needed to compete.

If anyone can name any other high level competitors/coaches and their Dan ranks I'd be interested (but those are the names that spring to the top of my "I wonder what rank X is..." list).
 

KarateMomUSA

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Does the introduction of Poomsae world championships change the need for more advanced Dan rank levels?
 

leadleg

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Does the introduction of Poomsae world championships change the need for more advanced Dan rank levels?
The divisions for the world poomse or sport poomse are done by age brackets rather than dan rank.
I think the biggest reason those in the sport seek rank is that one day a lot of them will want to open a school.
 

KarateMomUSA

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The divisions for the world poomse or sport poomse are done by age brackets rather than dan rank.
I think the biggest reason those in the sport seek rank is that one day a lot of them will want to open a school.
So a 60 year old I Dan can do a VII or VIII Dan level Poomsae?
 

leadleg

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So a 60 year old I Dan can do a VII or VIII Dan level Poomsae?
yes,it is now very important to learn all the poomse for your age group,along with the proper stance and movement.
The KKW has been for quite some time trying to get everyone on the same page with their poomse.The first poomse seminar I attended in San Fransisco had two of the instructors you see in the KKW textbook. They were quite irritated with the stances of many of the participants and blamed a lot of it on kwan styles.
This is one reason I have a hard time accepting the assimalation theory, the KKW is having trouble getting their own to perform the poomse correctly, and especially with the proper stances.
I can't imagine them dealing with members who do not even know the poomse at all.
 

KarateMomUSA

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yes,it is now very important to learn all the poomse for your age group,along with the proper stance and movement.
The KKW has been for quite some time trying to get everyone on the same page with their poomse.The first poomse seminar I attended in San Fransisco had two of the instructors you see in the KKW textbook. They were quite irritated with the stances of many of the participants and blamed a lot of it on kwan styles.
This is one reason I have a hard time accepting the assimalation theory, the KKW is having trouble getting their own to perform the poomse correctly, and especially with the proper stances.
I can't imagine them dealing with members who do not even know the poomse at all.
Yes I can imagine that this is a difficult task. This is what I think was 1 of Gen Choi's greatest accomplishments, getting so many around the world, in 100 plus nations doing his Tuls to the exact standard that he personally taught & then getting them to compete in world championships were the winner was the 1 performing closest to the world-wide standard that he spread almost single handedly, which I think is unprecedented to that level & extent.
This may have been a downside with the issuance of KKW Dan Rank without the mechanisms in place to insure standardization. This may have been done on purpose, but it does make the next step very hard to implement.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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I know some people are "done" with dan ranks and don't consider them important and I know they're a lot less important to competitors past 1st Dan, but I wondered if anyone knew the Kukkiwon Dan ranks of the following people (who are all coaches or competitors/ex-competitors):

Jean, Diana, Mark and Steven Lopez
LEE Han Won
Juan Moreno
Yang Jin Bang
Arlene Limas
Herb Perez
CHUNG Kuk Hyun
MOON Dae Sung

I just wondered whether competitors and coaches bother getting higher Dan ranks or whether they just get 1st Dan then consider their martial art side "done" as they have the qualification needed to compete.

If anyone can name any other high level competitors/coaches and their Dan ranks I'd be interested (but those are the names that spring to the top of my "I wonder what rank X is..." list).
Don't know about the names on the list. I suppose that it depends on the person. A competitor may continue to test for rank when his or her time in grade allows because while competition may be their main focus at the time, they know that it will not always be. We all focus on different aspects of our training at different times in our life. Competitors are no different.

Daniel
 

puunui

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I know some people are "done" with dan ranks and don't consider them important and I know they're a lot less important to competitors past 1st Dan, but I wondered if anyone knew the Kukkiwon Dan ranks of the following people (who are all coaches or competitors/ex-competitors):


Off the top of my head, speaking about Kukkiwon dan rank:

Jean, Diana, Mark and Steven Lopez: Jean no dan, Diana and Mark, 1st Dan, Steven 4th Dan.

LEE Han Won: 7th

Juan Moreno: 1st or no dan.

Yang Jin Bang: I think he was 5th Dan when he was in the USTU; maybe he is higher now.

Arlene Limas: not sure, heard 4th but maybe wrong.

Herb Perez: 7th

CHUNG Kuk Hyun: was 5th for the longest time; heard got 6th.

MOON Dae Sung: don't know
 

leadleg

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it used to be you needed at least 3rd dan to protest a decision at jr's or seniors. Jaun and Jean could not file a protest?
 

puunui

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The first poomse seminar I attended in San Fransisco had two of the instructors you see in the KKW textbook. They were quite irritated with the stances of many of the participants and blamed a lot of it on kwan styles. This is one reason I have a hard time accepting the assimalation theory, the KKW is having trouble getting their own to perform the poomse correctly, and especially with the proper stances. I can't imagine them dealing with members who do not even know the poomse at all.


Competition is what standardizes a martial art, or any sport for that matter. If you watch film of competition at WTF International Events twenty five or thirty years ago, you saw a wide variety of styles. Today, everyone at WTF International Events look basically the same. Those who reject competition under the WTF rules no doubt have sparring styles similar to what was shown twenty five, thirty or more years ago.

We are now getting standardization worldwide through the World Poomsae Championships and other poomsae events. In the past, there was no standardization because there was no reason to standardize. Now there is a reason.

Styles that do not have a competition format, Hapkido for example, lack technical standardization. Those that do, like Judo, Karate, Kendo, Sumo, Taekwondo, Wushu, or whatever, are standardized.
 

leadleg

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I agree with you on the most part, but the stances and movements of poomse were being standardized by the KKW long before the world poomse was an event. I was told in 89 or 90 that my stances were too low by a visiting WTF officer. I thought at the time I was doing very well having won at state.After he left my GM said to go back to the stances as he taught them,moo duk kwan LOW.:)
I think the seminar in frisco was before the first world poomse competition was held, cuta organised the event.
 

puunui

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I agree with you on the most part, but the stances and movements of poomse were being standardized by the KKW long before the world poomse was an event. I was told in 89 or 90 that my stances were too low by a visiting WTF officer. I thought at the time I was doing very well having won at state.After he left my GM said to go back to the stances as he taught them,moo duk kwan LOW.:)
I think the seminar in frisco was before the first world poomse competition was held, cuta organised the event.


The Kukkiwon poomsae were always done with that short narrow stance. The pioneers standardized it when they created the poomsae. But worldwide efforts did not begin until the opening of the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in 1998, in preparation for the coming World Poomsae Championships a few years later. The point is competition is what makes standardization, because it gives practitioners a reason to standardize.
 

Archtkd

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Off the top of my head, speaking about Kukkiwon dan rank:

Jean, Diana, Mark and Steven Lopez: Jean no dan, Diana and Mark, 1st Dan, Steven 4th Dan.

LEE Han Won: 7th

Juan Moreno: 1st or no dan.

Yang Jin Bang: I think he was 5th Dan when he was in the USTU; maybe he is higher now.

Arlene Limas: not sure, heard 4th but maybe wrong.

Herb Perez: 7th

CHUNG Kuk Hyun: was 5th for the longest time; heard got 6th.

MOON Dae Sung: don't know

Hope this in not derailing the thread, but I was wondering what the educational level of those coaches/competitors is.

I think good education matters very much, even in Taekwondo leadership and it's something we try to instill at our dojang. A number of the orginal kwan founders had good basic eduction, and in fact learned karate while studying in Japanese universities. Some of the current top instructors at the Kukkiwon are also very well educated individuals. The idea that good martial artists should also be well rounded intellectuals was something emphasized by some good lecturers at the 17th KKW instructor course in Chicago.
 

dancingalone

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The Kukkiwon poomsae were always done with that short narrow stance. The pioneers standardized it when they created the poomsae. But worldwide efforts did not begin until the opening of the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in 1998, in preparation for the coming World Poomsae Championships a few years later. The point is competition is what makes standardization, because it gives practitioners a reason to standardize.

Even the Palgwe forms? I have seen the hypothesis that the Palgwe poomsae still resembled the Japanese kata too much, hence the need for the Tae Geuks. I'd appreciate hearing your understanding of what the Palgwe poomsae were discontinued so quickly. Was it a matter of involving all the kwans?
 

puunui

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Hope this in not derailing the thread, but I was wondering what the educational level of those coaches/competitors is.

Off the top of my head:

Jean, Diana, Mark and Steven Lopez: high school

LEE Han Won: bachelor's degree

Juan Moreno: high school

Yang Jin Bang: Ph.D

Arlene Limas: not sure

Herb Perez: Bachelor's and Juris Doctor

CHUNG Kuk Hyun: Masters or Ph.D.

MOON Dae Sung: Bachelor's at least
 

puunui

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Even the Palgwe forms? I have seen the hypothesis that the Palgwe poomsae still resembled the Japanese kata too much, hence the need for the Tae Geuks. I'd appreciate hearing your understanding of what the Palgwe poomsae were discontinued so quickly. Was it a matter of involving all the kwans?


The Japanese theory is invalid, and if you overly rely on that, then it will mislead you. When these forms were being created, the pioneers were actively traveling to Japan on exchange trips to learn more about Japanese Karate. For a time, the pioneers sought out knowledge from Japan and emulated Japan. The name of the KTA, Korea Taekwondo Association, for example is a direct copy of the Japan Karate Association (JKA), as was the belt system, dan ranking, uniform, emphasis on competition, etc. Korea's MO is to emulate Japan, with the idea of eventually surpassing them when they have learned all that they can. Nothing wrong with that, many countries try to do the same thing in other areas outside of the martial arts.

In 1967, GM LEE Won Kuk came back from Japan and said no, the long wide stance is a perversion, so the short narrow stances were brought back in. And yes, the Palgwae poomsae were done in short narrow stances, just like the Yudanja poomsae which were created at the same time. The Palgwae poomsae were discontinued as a compromise because the Moo Duk Kwan and Jidokwan did not have representatives on the KTA Ad Hoc Committee which created the Palgwae and Yudanja poomsae in 1967. In 1972 or so, a Moo Duk Kwan and Jidokwan member was added, and GM LEE Chong Woo became the chairman or supervisor of the committee. That committee created the Taeguek and Koryo 2 poomsae, both of which have walking stances in them. GM PARK Hae Man, with the assistance of GM LIM Chang Soo, was the final editor of the Taeguek poomsae.

The 1967 and 1972 committees worked differently. In 1967, the committee members agreed to each create two or three new forms, and they would get together and figure out which ones would be included. GM PARK Hae Man created Palgwae 3 & 8, while Song Moo Kwan GM LEE Yong Sup created Koryo 1 and Pyongwon. I want to say that Chang Moo Kwan GM KIM Soon Bae created Chonkwon, but I am fuzzy on that one.

In 1972, the committee worked together to create the Taeguek and Koryo 2 poomsae as a group.

So between 1967 and 1972, they kept about half and replaced half with new ones.

This process was covered in the Modern History book.
 

Archtkd

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Off the top of my head:

Jean, Diana, Mark and Steven Lopez: high school

LEE Han Won: bachelor's degree

Juan Moreno: high school

Yang Jin Bang: Ph.D

Arlene Limas: not sure

Herb Perez: Bachelor's and Juris Doctor

CHUNG Kuk Hyun: Masters or Ph.D.

MOON Dae Sung: Bachelor's at least

Very interesting. Arlene Limas, I read somewhere, is a political science grad of DePaul University in Chicago.
 

puunui

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Very interesting. Arlene Limas, I read somewhere, is a political science grad of DePaul University in Chicago.

Mark Lopez might have recently graduated from college, I want to say in business with a finance degree. He is working in that field and has one leg out of the Taekwondo world. He wanted to open his own dojang, but I hear Jean said no, so he is about to leave. I believe this is his last Olympics.

It is said that Jean and Juan got their college education equivilant at the OTC Resident Athlete program, where both spent four years.
 

dancingalone

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In 1967, GM LEE Won Kuk came back from Japan and said no, the long wide stance is a perversion, so the short narrow stances were brought back in. And yes, the Palgwae poomsae were done in short narrow stances, just like the Yudanja poomsae which were created at the same time.

Thank you for the extended explanation. I have the set of Palgwe books by Kim, Pyung Soo published by Ohara Publications in the seventies. If memory serves rightly, he doesn't show a low, low front stance, but neither does he demonstrate the short and narrow positioning of a walking stance. Wrong from the get-go? I know MANY who own and used those books as a reference.
 
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andyjeffries

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Jean, Diana, Mark and Steven Lopez: Jean no dan, Diana and Mark, 1st Dan, Steven 4th Dan.

Wow? I'm surprised Jean has no dan. I'd have thought that he'd have a high dan as he runs a school and would need to promote students to 1st Dan to compete. I guess he knows enough people to do that for him.

Also I thought you had to have Kukkiwon 1st to compete internationally, which I understood from the Lopez book that he had before turning coach.

LEE Han Won: 7th

I always liked Master Lee's video tapes, I tried to find them on DVD a while back (and tried to convert my VHS ones to DVD) but no luck. :-(

Juan Moreno: 1st or no dan.

Arlene Limas: not sure, heard 4th but maybe wrong.

Herb Perez: 7th

It'd nice to see Herb getting higher Dan rank, I know he's been around forever :)

Yang Jin Bang: I think he was 5th Dan when he was in the USTU; maybe he is higher now.

CHUNG Kuk Hyun: was 5th for the longest time; heard got 6th.

MOON Dae Sung: don't know

Interesting that the Koreans generally go for higher dan ranks, while the US coaches have stayed lower. I guess this shows there is a split in America between sport and martial art as some of the top US coaches don't bother getting higher martial art ranks.

What is the collective's opinion? Keep up with getting your Dan ranks (so your rank fits with your time in the art) when you're able or not bother once you have "what you need" (whatever you feel that may be).
 
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