Daito ryu has a Tai Chi lineage?

[oaktree]

So proof the claims then Jason.
YOU are the one who said he has proof but
YOU refuse to present evidence. How are people
suppose to take you as? A scholar a researcher a troll?
What type of reputation do you expect others on this forum to
Hold for you after the pages in this thread and your conduct.

If your students happen to see this thread or people buying your
Book happen to come across this how can they take your academic research serious.

Now what ever you have in Chinese you are welcome to send me privately
and I will translate it in English For the thread so at least you can have
Some sort of credibility.

 

[MJS]

Folks,

Lets keep the thread civil please. I haven't read thru every single post here, however, just the few pages that I have read, I'll say this. If someone makes a statement, a claim, etc, and someone disagrees with it, rather than engage in a back and forth pissing match, provide some proof to back up said claim. I see that some are doing that, while others are content with continuing the pissing match.

As for the rep issues....as its been said countless times....don't talk about them in the threads! If someone has a rep issue, PM an Admin. We will look into it. Crying about it in the thread won't help the cause any.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin

 

[Xue Sheng]

You know if I say what I want I will get banned or suspended but I will say I have asked multiple times for proof and asked multiple times for names and there was never an answer and when there was the story changed...and then he claimed it was all just a joke....please... to be honest I have had enough of all of this garbage.....later

 

[jasonbrinn]

You know if I say what I want I will get banned or suspended but I will say I have asked multiple times for proof and asked multiple times for names and there was never an answer and when there was the story changed...and then he claimed it was all just a joke....please... to be honest I have had enough of all of this garbage.....later

1. Never claimed it was a joke, I said I was joking with some of my comments.

2. I was and have ALWAYS been asking for peoples opinions - I NEVER started this thread to prove anything.

3. I have told XUE multiple times that I am looking for others opinions and that I will print my story later - I already know and have written my story why do I want to read it here - I want to hear others ideas first and foremost!

4. I haven't said anything about rep in this thread nor have I ever "cried" about it.

5. If you look through the thread I have given some of the ideas that are involved with my research a few times. People want to argue about the validity and I was NEVER looking to make a thread about the argument - I ONLY WANTED TO HEAR PEOPLES THOUGHTS ABOUT THE IDEA IN GENERAL.

6. From the very beginning people have attacked the thread as if I was stupid for posting it! This is a forum "community" right? Or is it a place were people that are friends get to sit around and post and feel smart and new people either have to agree and ffer similar ideas or they get to be made fun of and told they don't have enough experience to formulate a new idea or that there past is skewed or that their teacher really hates them or that their students are bad off, etc.

7. I responded in kind to the way I was treated here. I have actually had good productive interactions with people from this thread off of this thread about this thread.

8. I am not trying to gain rep or "credibility" here on the interwebs and NO forum is going to take away from what I have done or continue to do in real life. The merits of my published work, when published, will stand on the facts by which they are based or proven wrong and I can live with that. People here are just pissed cause they want to know and got mad when they couldn't make me give them what they wanted when they wanted it.

The Daito ryu art has a long Japanese tradition that is provable from Yoshimitsu and even before. Daito ryu gained a close relationship with the Rinzai school of Zen during a critical time in its development. It is my assertion that the Chan-Zen connections afforded the transfer of exercises and techniques that led to the "creation" of the aiki introduction into the art and the subsequent "aiki no jutsu" kata. I believe that the origin of aiki and the Chen family's chan su jing is one in the same and therefore share MANY similarities (which did not ever appear before these connections). I believe that these connections for both aiki and chan su jing all come from Mt. Emei and the taoist traditions rooted there. I believe that after the longest period of instruction time by almost any student of Takeda's that Ueshiba made plans to go to China and study Bagua following the same lines that I have in reaching my belief.

There is much more that I have found and a lot of specifics but at the end of the day it will take some faith to believe anyone's ideas as the men aren't around to say and the hard historical documents to prove one or the other do not exist to my knowledge. What I do KNOW is that thanks to my study of aiki I can plainly see the similarities and concepts shared between the elements making up chan su jing and aiki and I can and have followed them to what I feel is their source.

If this offends someone or they want to call me stupid for my beliefs then fine - nothing I can say or post can stop you from doing that. Just know that men greater than myself have followed this same line of thinking and privately support them (I have come to find out while researching).


thank you everyone.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You have heard from many more than me and all are telling you that what you are talking about did not happen so what you are saying is you want to hear form others that will agree with you and you are not looking for anyone that does not agree with you or can prove you wrong based on historical facts

Let me put it to you this way

Gottfried Leibniz did not know Sir Isaac Newton and they both discovered the same thing independently of each other….calculus

Do you have any idea how many societies came up with pyramids all by themselves without any knowledge of other pyramid builders?

Do you have any idea how many cultures came up with the meatball independently....without being shown... all by themselves?

Many martial arts share a pretty basic posture and there was no historical connection

There is no connection between the Chen family and the aiki no jutsu" kata either.

But let me ask you this..... Have you trained both?

Are both of them philosophically the same or is there focus the same as to what they are trying to accomplish?

Beyond that please refer to any other posts I have made to you about Chan si jin

 

[Chris Li]

Gottfried Leibniz did not know Sir Isaac Newton and they both discovered the same thing independently of each other….calculus

Ironically, that was a point of bitter argument for years (I'm not arguing the point, just pointing out the irony).

Many martial arts share a pretty basic posture and there was no historical connection

There is no connection between the Chen family and the aiki no jutsu" kata either.

But let me ask you this..... Have you trained both?

Are both of them philosophically the same or is there focus the same as to what they are trying to accomplish?

Beyond that please refer to any other posts I have made to you about Chan si jin

A couple of thoughts:

1) Have you trained both? (I'm not challenging, just asking)
2) I don't remember a strictly postural argument being made, IIRC (I may have missed it), the argument seems to be that there are also supporting historical documents.
3) I have no idea whether the argument holds any water or not - but I'd be interested to see the argument before I state categorically that it's false.

Best,

Chris

 

[jasonbrinn]

You have heard from many more than me and all are telling you that what you are talking about did not happen so what you are saying is you want to hear form others that will agree with you and you are not looking for anyone that does not agree with you or can prove you wrong based on historical facts

Let me put it to you this way

Gottfried Leibniz did not know Sir Isaac Newton and they both discovered the same thing independently of each other….calculus

Do you have any idea how many societies came up with pyramids all by themselves without any knowledge of other pyramid builders?

Do you have any idea how many cultures came up with the meatball independently....without being shown... all by themselves?

Many martial arts share a pretty basic posture and there was no historical connection

There is no connection between the Chen family and the aiki no jutsu" kata either.

But let me ask you this..... Have you trained both?

Are both of them philosophically the same or is there focus the same as to what they are trying to accomplish?

Beyond that please refer to any other posts I have made to you about Chan si jin

You just don't know how to be nice do you?

I am the one who only wants to believe his own idea? You are the one sir who is completely inflexible to any idea outside of what you believe to be the proven facts. Can you prove that the early pyramid builders didn't share ideas? No - of course you can't cause you weren't there, they aren't around and there is no evidence proving they didn't. You believe that because that is popular belief and it makes sense to you. There have been many popular beliefs throughout history that ultimately were turned on their heads with new evidence and research - how did that happen without people willing to look at things they didn't necessarily believe in to start.

I NEVER set out to make the connections. I don't need there to be a connection. I don't need you or anyone to believe in a connection. I was simply sharing an idea and wanted to hear other's ideas about it.

Yes, I have had training in both and continue to receive such.

They are the same in philosophy, focus, action and even technique. The movements are highly specialized as are the concepts which is why you don't see them anywhere else (outside of their influence). This seems to me to be slightly telling of something more.

I can agree that similar if not identical things can develop devoid of any connection but I also know that sometimes where there is smoke there is fire. It seems others here can see the same and feel the same way although why would they post when they see the way you treat people with different ideas here?

You have attacked me personally when all you had to do was say "you know I don't feel that way - to me this is the truth" and been done with it. Instead you want to tear me down and besmirch my character - why? You don't know me. You don't know what I have done or are doing and you don't know what research I have or who I have collaborated with in making it (albeit this is my fault up to this point but I have already stated the reasons).

The funniest thing is that you believe you have the entire true story from some of the most secretive and guarded groups in the martial arts and from where, wikipedia?

Do you actually believe that if the Japanese got what the Kojiki refers to as the "ultimate secret behind all Japanese martial arts" from the Chinese that it would be published in the news somewhere or menkyo kaiden's would be lining up to attest to it?

 

[oaktree]

I think this is what Jason is talking about:

“The Qianzai Temple 千載寺 was the birthplace of taiji quan

http://www.literati-tradition.com/chen_camp.html
http://ymaa.com/articles/origin-of-taijiquan-2
http://imos-journal.net/?p=907
Now there are some things that might be problematic such as this which suggest that Chen family already had routines in existance and the connection with Xiaolin cannon fist and Chen Wang Ting military career.
http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/historg3.htm
We do have Chen Wang Ting's words that he was studying the Huangting and practicing his martial arts. I think its highly doubtful that it came from a friendly sparring match at Qianzai temple and the winner could name the art thus the name Taijiquan interesting to hear others thoughts on it.

 

[jks9199]

Apparently a pretty clear hint by MJS didn't take. Any further shots, any further attacks, and the infraction points will start flowing. Much to my shock & amazement after the first few pages of this thread, there has actually been some useful discussion in the last few pages. Keep it on track, keep it civil.

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Keep the conversation polite and respectful.

jks9199
MT Asst. Administrator

 

[jasonbrinn]

Ironically, that was a point of bitter argument for years (I'm not arguing the point, just pointing out the irony).

1) Have you trained both? (I'm not challenging, just asking)

Yes, although neither to a level I am happy with and I still continue training in both.

2) I don't remember a strictly postural argument being made, IIRC (I may have missed it), the argument seems to be that there are also supporting historical documents.

Not so much documents as corresponding timelines, qoutes and the like. The Rinzai sect of Zen and its founders have easily searchable Chinese links and the names of those people can be traced to taoist arts. The scrolls in Daito have names similar to the ones in Zen. The Takeda family and others take on a strange relationship IMO with a particular Zen temple whose founder was called "Daito." The higher level samurai studied the Chinese classics and had direct Chinese teachers for them at the Nishinkan and the temples of course. The "aiki-no-jutsu" kata was ONLY taught to high level samurai and only found with a very select group of Daito men like Takeda, Kotaro, Horikawa, Sagawa, Shioda, Tomiki, etc. What those men demonstrated seems to be VERY different then the standard 118, why? I have seen Okamoto sensei do a hand form that was almost exactly the same as "bone-marrow washing" and to my knowledge he never studied that. I have seen the current Chen headmaster demonstrate 2 of the exact fundamental moves (nothing normal something pretty strange) that Okamoto sensei drilled into us time and time again and they both explained them for the same reasons. The Chen have some of the same movements and demos as the high level Daitos. The Chen masters performed a particular set 20 some times a day that was filled with nothing but chan su jing. The Chen village is close a a Shaolin temple that had as its first fully integrated martial system one from Mt. Emei and the Taoist origin. And on and on it goes.

3) I have no idea whether the argument holds any water or not - but I'd be interested to see the argument before I state categorically that it's false.

That's incredibly fair, but for the sake of the original post of the thread, what do you think about the idea?


thank you sir!

 

[jasonbrinn]

I think this is what Jason is talking about:

http://www.literati-tradition.com/chen_camp.html
http://ymaa.com/articles/origin-of-taijiquan-2
http://imos-journal.net/?p=907
Now there are some things that might be problematic such as this which suggest that Chen family already had routines in existance and the connection with Xiaolin cannon fist and Chen Wang Ting military career.
http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/historg3.htm
We do have Chen Wang Ting's words that he was studying the Huangting and practicing his martial arts. I think its highly doubtful that it came from a friendly sparring match at Qianzai temple and the winner could name the art thus the name Taijiquan interesting to hear others thoughts on it.

Awesome - this kind of interaction is what I was hoping for from the beginning.

I think what we should search is Pao Chui - this is where I believe both systems find their home. I was hoping to read Xue's idea about this? Xue, anything about Pao Chui strike you as strange or unique?


Thank you.

 

[oaktree]

Hi Jason
I will see if I can address some of your post:

I believe that the origin of aiki and the Chen family's chan su jing is one in the same and therefore share MANY similarities

If you want to say that both have rotation of the Dan tian then sure, but in that case we can say any arts that contract and turn with the waist have similarities
only so many ways a person can move. The way to learn Chan si jin is through Laojia/Xinjia the way to learn Laojia/Xinjia is through Chan si jin I think its difficult to practice one without the other because both help each other.

I believe that these connections for both aiki and chan su jing all come from Mt. Emei and the taoist traditions rooted there.

Chen Wangting says he learned it from books such as the Huangting( I am sure he learned it else where to) Its doubtful that Chen Wangting has anything to do with Emei shan
because Chen village is far from there. It is alot of speculation same as the articles I have listed as well until we get more facts and documents all we have are speculations and some puzzle pieces.

 

[oaktree]

Hi Jason the common theme is Chen's Pao Chui comes from Xiaolin, oh well I guess all arts do come from Xiaolin afterall:uhyeah:

 

[Chris Li]

Yes, although neither to a level I am happy with and I still continue training in both.

Actually, I had meant that for Xue Sheng - but good to know!

3) I have no idea whether the argument holds any water or not - but I'd be interested to see the argument before I state categorically that it's false.

That's incredibly fair, but for the sake of the original post of the thread, what do you think about the idea?

Well, I think that it's an interesting idea. In a general sense, even in the sense of transmission of core principals from China, then I tend to agree. However, if you're linking specific people and lineages then it may be tricky without some convincing details.

Best,

Chris

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK here we go…section by section

You just don't know how to be nice do you?

Actually yes I do but your “idea” although interesting has no historic proof what-so-ever and time and time again thought out this you have changed your story and your reasons for the post

I am the one who only wants to believe his own idea? You are the one sir who is completely inflexible to any idea outside of what you believe to be the proven facts. Can you prove that the early pyramid builders didn't share ideas? No - of course you can't cause you weren't there, they aren't around and there is no evidence proving they didn't. You believe that because that is popular belief and it makes sense to you. There have been many popular beliefs throughout history that ultimately were turned on their heads with new evidence and research - how did that happen without people willing to look at things they didn't necessarily believe in to start.

I was not there to see Washington cross the Delaware either but I believe he did and I believe this for the same reason….documented history. Your argument here is rather weak by the way…the you were not there so how do you know thing…. Well…. I read… I have studied the history…. And there has been no proof to the contrary so….
Also you appear to be confusing ideas with accepted historic fact. It is great to have an idea but it is just an idea and it will never be anything more without proof. Yes I am very aware that throughout history there have been those that studied something and felt they discovered something and they were ridiculed or told they were wrong only to later be proven right the name Alfred Wegener comes to mind but what you are presenting here is, so far, not even close to presenting anything her that any respectable historian in China, Japan or the USA would even entertain. There are also those that feel they discovered something that they are ridiculed for and it turns out they were pretty much wrong, which I am sorry but that is where I think you are

I NEVER set out to make the connections. I don't need there to be a connection. I don't need you or anyone to believe in a connection. I was simply sharing an idea and wanted to hear other's ideas about it.

You really need to reread what you have typed because what you are saying there and what you have said just don’t match up

Yes, I have had training in both and continue to receive such.

Jason…do you remember this post …..it appears again you are saying two different things
Now you say you trained Chan Si Jin and in the other post you say you haven’t… which is it?

They are the same in philosophy, focus, action and even technique. The movements are highly specialized as are the concepts which is why you don't see them anywhere else (outside of their influence). This seems to me to be slightly telling of something more.

You see much of it throughout various Chinese martial arts systems and Qigong systems actually so you are again a bit off here. It is not unique to the 2 systems you are comparing. And since I do not know the aiki no jutsu" kata but have legitamtely trained Chan Si Jin with a member of the Chen family I would be interested to know what the philosophy and focus of aiki no jutsu" kata is

I can agree that similar if not identical things can develop devoid of any connection but I also know that sometimes where there is smoke there is fire. It seems others here can see the same and feel the same way although why would they post when they see the way you treat people with different ideas here?

Interesting attempt at diversion but….. this is not how I treat people with new ideas…. This is how I treat people who are attempting to push an idea on others with no proof to back it up who avoid answering questions and change their story and focus when it suites them in order to avoid the reality of the situation.

You have attacked me personally when all you had to do was say "you know I don't feel that way - to me this is the truth" and been done with it. Instead you want to tear me down and besmirch my character - why? You don't know me. You don't know what I have done or are doing and you don't know what research I have or who I have collaborated with in making it (albeit this is my fault up to this point but I have already stated the reasons).

Do you remember the “world is flat comment you made or have you decided to selectively forget that one. And again you really need to reread what you have posted because you are saying things here that do not match up with what was previously posted

I don’t want to tear you down actually you are doing a pretty good job of that all by yourself. What I want is answers to several questions I have asked in order to better understand where the heck you are getting this lineage from and you have not answered them…. Let me ask this one again…your teacher that you say knows Yang style…what is it exactly…long form, 24 form, Yang family, Cheng Manching?

The funniest thing is that you believe you have the entire true story from some of the most secretive and guarded groups in the martial arts and from where, wikipedia?

Actually, unlike what I believe you are doing I tend to read real live books on the topic and I have studied it. I also have talked to real live people like some in the Chen family and those that are 5th generation Yang that is where I get my history of Taiji and of Chinese martial arts and China…actually studied Chinese history in college too… Wikipedia is a interesting sometimes but not what I am using for this.

Do you actually believe that if the Japanese got what the Kojiki refers to as the "ultimate secret behind all Japanese martial arts" from the Chinese that it would be published in the news somewhere or menkyo kaiden's would be lining up to attest to it?

What the heck are you talking about now… Again there is a lot of history out there that you can look at that tells you what Chinese martial art came from China and went to Japan and how it got there…. That is not what we or you (up till now) have been discussing. It is the lineage to Taiji that you are pushing that we have been discussing
I have said there is a lot in Japan that comes from China…. However Taiji to Daito ryu is not one of them as far back as you originally stated. As I said before, if there is a connection it is modern

 

[Xue Sheng]

A couple of thoughts:

1) Have you trained both? (I'm not challenging, just asking)
2) I don't remember a strictly postural argument being made, IIRC (I may have missed it), the argument seems to be that there are also supporting historical documents.
3) I have no idea whether the argument holds any water or not - but I'd be interested to see the argument before I state categorically that it's false.

Best,

Chris

after multiple unanswered questions frankly I am done with PC and niceties here.

 

[Chris Li]

after multiple unanswered questions frankly I am done with PC and niceties here.

I'm sorry...did you ask me something that I didn't reply to?

Best,

Chris

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm sorry...did you ask me something that I didn't reply to?

Best,

Chris

No, my apologies, I was not clear, it was not directed at you but more to the thread in general

It has been a bad day since I got up this morning.

I think you asked me questions I did not answer if so here they are

1) Have you trained both? (I'm not challenging, just asking)

I have never trained Daito ryu but I have trained Chan Si Jin, Chen Taiji and Yang Taiji and other CMA styles for about 20 years now and my MA training started about 40 years ago with Jujutsu

2) I don't remember a strictly postural argument being made, IIRC (I may have missed it), the argument seems to be that there are also supporting historical documents.

I am not sure how to answer this but the people and dates originally put forth by the OP as a connection do not work based on the times the people he is using lived as compared to those in the Chen family. Also based on how the Chen family approached its teaching they would not taught any outsiders in the times the OP has used based on the people he originally claimed to be the link.

3) I have no idea whether the argument holds any water or not - but I'd be interested to see the argument before I state categorically that it's false.

I have seen the argument based on the people he claimed to be the link and I have asked questions to try and clarify that have gone unanswered and based on the lack of any historical evidence and the complete lack of connection of the people based on the dates and of course the lack of actual answers to actual questions. I am pretty sure the claim is false.

However I would be interested on why the OP thinks the aiki form is the same as Chan Si Jin... I seriously doubt the source is the Chen family but I would be interested it why he feels that way since I do not know the aiki form

 

[Chris Li]

No, my apologies, I was not clear, it was not directed at you but more to the thread in general

It has been a bad day since I got up this morning.

No problem!

I think you asked me questions I did not answer if so here they are

I am not sure how to answer this but the people and dates originally put forth by the OP as a connection do not work based on the times the people he is using lived as compared to those in the Chen family. Also based on how the Chen family approached its teaching they would not taught any outsiders in the times the OP has used based on the people he originally claimed to be the link.

I didn't think that he'd laid it out in that much detail, but I agree - the timing is a little tricky unless there are some continuing links that can be shown much further down the line.

However I would be interested on why the OP thinks the aiki form is the same as Chan Si Jin... I seriously doubt the source is the Chen family but I would be interested it why he feels that way since I do not know the aiki form

Well, I'm a lightweight on the Chinese side, so I'll avoid any public opinion here.

Best,

Chris

 

[docflagen]

Hello,

My name is Howard Popkin and I was a student of Okamoto Seigo of the Roppokai.

Facts -
1) Mr. Brinn was never my student
2) Mr. Brinn was never my Sempai - He first met Okamoto in April of 1997, I began training with Okamoto in February of 1997
3) Mr. Brinn is correct, I never taught him anything of martial value
4) Mr. Brinn did not train with Okamoto for 13 years.
5) Mr. Brinn was told by Okamoto to keep training, that is not an acknowledgement of rank, knowledge, responsibility, or authority.
6) When asked about the history of Daitoryu, Okamoto was very candid...."I don't know, it was before my time" was a common quote.

Mr. Brinn and I do not like each other, so please don't take my word for it. If you need confirmation of any of these facts, please contact an authorized member of Roppokai. I am no longer a member, although I do accasionally speak directly to Okamoto Sensei.

Elder999, I'm sorry, I don't recognize you from the name, but I spent many hours in that church. Please feel free to e-mail me - popkinbrogna@yahoo.com

Howard Popkin