Daito ryu has a Tai Chi lineage?

elder999

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Hello,

My name is Howard Popkin and I was a student of Okamoto Seigo of the Roppokai.

Facts -
1) Mr. Brinn was never my student
2) Mr. Brinn was never my Sempai - He first met Okamoto in April of 1997, I began training with Okamoto in February of 1997
3) Mr. Brinn is correct, I never taught him anything of martial value
4) Mr. Brinn did not train with Okamoto for 13 years.
5) Mr. Brinn was told by Okamoto to keep training, that is not an acknowledgement of rank, knowledge, responsibility, or authority.
6) When asked about the history of Daitoryu, Okamoto was very candid...."I don't know, it was before my time" was a common quote.

Mr. Brinn and I do not like each other, so please don't take my word for it. If you need confirmation of any of these facts, please contact an authorized member of Roppokai. I am no longer a member, although I do accasionally speak directly to Okamoto Sensei.

Elder999, I'm sorry, I don't recognize you from the name, but I spent many hours in that church. Please feel free to e-mail me - popkinbrogna@yahoo.com

Howard Popkin

Hi, Howard! Welcome aboard!

(For the record, I didn't invite Mr. Popkin to join us, but I'm glad he did.......)
 

Brian King

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Welcome to Martial Talk Howard!
Looking forward to reading more of your writing on the forum.

FWIW Howards word is as good as gold to me.

Warmest Regards
Brian King
 

Chris Parker

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Hello,

My name is Howard Popkin and I was a student of Okamoto Seigo of the Roppokai.

Facts -
1) Mr. Brinn was never my student
2) Mr. Brinn was never my Sempai - He first met Okamoto in April of 1997, I began training with Okamoto in February of 1997
3) Mr. Brinn is correct, I never taught him anything of martial value
4) Mr. Brinn did not train with Okamoto for 13 years.
5) Mr. Brinn was told by Okamoto to keep training, that is not an acknowledgement of rank, knowledge, responsibility, or authority.
6) When asked about the history of Daitoryu, Okamoto was very candid...."I don't know, it was before my time" was a common quote.

Mr. Brinn and I do not like each other, so please don't take my word for it. If you need confirmation of any of these facts, please contact an authorized member of Roppokai. I am no longer a member, although I do accasionally speak directly to Okamoto Sensei.

Elder999, I'm sorry, I don't recognize you from the name, but I spent many hours in that church. Please feel free to e-mail me - popkinbrogna@yahoo.com

Howard Popkin

Hi Howard,

This version of events matches what I've seen and heard around the place, thanks for clarifying here. Sorry to dredge up old memories for you here. I hope you'll stick around for discussion here (not just on Daito Ryu related material)!

(NOTE: For the record, I didn't approach Mr Popkin or invite him to the discussion either, although I am glad to see him here, and know him by reputation only from my reading and talking with others.)
 
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jasonbrinn

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Hi Howard,

This version of events matches what I've seen and heard around the place, thanks for clarifying here. Sorry to dredge up old memories for you here. I hope you'll stick around for discussion here (not just on Daito Ryu related material)!

(NOTE: For the record, I didn't approach Mr Popkin or invite him to the discussion either, although I am glad to see him here, and know him by reputation only from my reading and talking with others.)

Chris - the tone of this comes across as if Howard is confirming a truth opposite of the one I had already stated which you questioned and I don't appreciate it. I shared the truth with you earlier and you didn't like hearing it from me (which is ok - to each his own, remember that whole when the student is ready thing), however, Howard is only confirming everything I said except for 1 minor detail and then we have 1 disagreement.

Let's take a look for the record;


1) Mr. Brinn was never my student

I said this earlier Chris and you acted like it didn't make sense and proceeded to tell me how that seemed false. I reassured you that this was the truth but you didn't seem to believe me then. This statement by me was NEVER an attack on Howard, only the truth. I consider Howard a great teacher and even considered moving to New York to live to train with him in Daito ryu. The fact is I wanted to make the statement to assure everyone that my beliefs and ability are not a result of Howard thats all.


2) Mr. Brinn was never my Sempai - He first met Okamoto in April of 1997, I began training with Okamoto in February of 1997

Here is where I was wrong. I never knew that Howard started training 3 months before me in Roppokai. This however is still a matter of "grey" which I don't think is that important to get into the details of though. I understood that Howard had years of Kodokai training before coming to the Roppokai so the point is more or less mute when it comes to exposure in Howards favor. I was, in any case, training Roppokai techniques with the instructor in Huntersville at least 5 months prior to April back in November of 1996. The April date is when Okamoto sensei himself gave me my first direct instruction so either way you want to look at it.


3) Mr. Brinn is correct, I never taught him anything of martial value

Again, I meant NO attack on Howard with this statement. I feel that this is my loss as I believe Howard has a ton of martial value to share - only that I never got any real opportunity to train it. He did show me a very cool variation on a "bow and arrow" choke once but it wasn't like he really trained me in it. Howard helped me correct my Roppokai techniques and he was my senior and those two points I have always supported and have always and will always be grateful for.

4) Mr. Brinn did not train with Okamoto for 13 years.

This is the one point Howard is wrong about, however, it is a matter of opinion and one that I simply don't care to go into.


5) Mr. Brinn was told by Okamoto to keep training, that is not an acknowledgement of rank, knowledge, responsibility, or authority.

Howard doesn't actually know himself what Okamoto sensei or the members of the Roppokai board or senior members in Roppokai told me, he only knows what he was told happened years later. The fact is I have never acted or represented myself as an authority on Roppokai. Okamoto sensei has acknowledged my rank, knowledge and has charged me responsible of different things throughout my history with him. I never formed an official "club" myself as it never seemed to be anything that was essential to do. I wanted to learn Roppokai and Okamoto sensei provided a way for me to do that when he himself was unavailable - it wasn't him which was a shame but he never stopped being my teacher nor trying to help me progress.


6) When asked about the history of Daitoryu, Okamoto was very candid...."I don't know, it was before my time" was a common quote.

I have NEVER said Okamoto sensei told me any history either - the FACT is that I stated earlier in this thread that the theories were my own and NOT Okamoto sensei's or anyone else in the Roppokai.


Mr. Brinn and I do not like each other, so please don't take my word for it. If you need confirmation of any of these facts, please contact an authorized member of Roppokai. I am no longer a member, although I do accasionally speak directly to Okamoto Sensei.

I don't like Howard Popkin, but I do respect his ability even if I don't respect how he as chosen to act towards me or others I know. I didn't care for Howard's leadership, not saying that he is not or was not a good leader its just he is not one that I care to be under. Howard and I have a fundamental difference in LIFE approach, and more acutely "end of life" approach. Howard for whatever reason has been very angry with me in the past and attacked me and this is something I did not nor do not appreciate.

I do, however, appreciate him taking the time to come onto this board and re-iterate most of what I had already said. I also appreciate him the manner by which he did it.

As others have said I too think highly of Howard's ability and often, to this very day, encourage people seeking to FEEL Roppokai or Aiki to seek him out for instruction.


Now Chris, I never understood nor understand why when people disagree with something someone says or they don't like what it may mean for them that they feel the need to attack that person's character, even if just slightly. No one on this bord KNOWS me nor my ability and training background (except in segments) including Howard so why not take the time to get to know me and my background through time and posts and until then focus on my ideas not me. Can't you just say that you don't agree there could be a linkage and leave it at that?
 

Grenadier

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Administrator's note:

Due to the nature of this conversation, the thread has now been moved to The Great Debate.

Please familiarize yourself with the rules of this sub-forum.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator
 

TimoS

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Can't you just say that you don't agree there could be a linkage and leave it at that?

That would be a pretty short thread then and very boring to read :D You saying these, to put it politely, controversial ideas and just about everyone saying that they don't agree with you.
 

pgsmith

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jasonbrinn said:
I am curious to hear any other opinions/stories/comments etc.

jasonbrinn said:
Can't you just say that you don't agree there could be a linkage and leave it at that?

Seems to me that you've got a penchant for conflict.
 
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jasonbrinn

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Seems to me that you've got a penchant for conflict.

Paul - being curious to hear opinions/stories/comments is a world apart form having to PROVE your own training history for people just because they don't link your idea. Chris and others seem bent that a new idea can only come from a place they know and understand - not true. Its cool to say I don't think your idea is valid because xyz but to say I don't hink your idea is good because I think you suck is juvenile.
 

elder999

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Paul - being curious to hear opinions/stories/comments is a world apart form having to PROVE your own training history for people just because they don't link your idea. Chris and others seem bent that a new idea can only come from a place they know and understand - not true. Its cool to say I don't think your idea is valid because xyz but to say I don't hink your idea is good because I think you suck is juvenile.

-sigh-

Dude. I'm an engineer, and a physicist-people here know that-if a physics/nuclear/nuclear weapon/national lab/engineering related question comes up, I like to think that I'm one of the "go to" guys here. I have no problem telling people where I went to school, should the subject come up-in fact, I've spelled it out more than once-I also have some prettty "out there," non-mainstream ideas in this regard, (the photon has mass, the photon has mass, the photon has mass :lfao: ) and they have actually caused people to ask me, Geez, where's your degree from, again?

Though not here.

Likewise, if I were to say that there's ohhh.....daito ryu in kyokushin karate, because Mas Oyama studied it with Yoshida Kotaro, and that I had evidence of it, I wouldn't hesitate to show who my kyokushin teachers and daito ryu teachers were, and what my rank is, in support of my knowledge base. Of course, I claim no ranking in daito ryu, having only been exposed to it for a short time, and there is no daito ryu proper in kyokushin karate,except for the cane/walking stick/umbrella techniques and some joint manipulations that are more jujutsu than aikijujutsu, that next-to no one teaches anymore,anyway-but that's beside the point: outrageous hypotheses have to be supported by some sort of evidence, and you haven't shown us any, you've only said that it's there, it's definite and you have it. All I asked for was some basis for these assertions-an academic curriculum vitae, so to speak-like I said earlier, if you're going to write a book, it'll have a bio on the jacket saying who you are to make these assertions. Now, in terms of language alone, you've kind of disqualified yourself as having any knowledge base on which to make these assertions, but no one has said anything at all about your rank, skill or knowledge level-you should take that for what it is, okay?
 

rickster

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1. Never claimed it was a joke, I said I was joking with some of my comments.

2. I was and have ALWAYS been asking for peoples opinions - I NEVER started this thread to prove anything.

3. I have told XUE multiple times that I am looking for others opinions and that I will print my story later - I already know and have written my story why do I want to read it here - I want to hear others ideas first and foremost!

4. I haven't said anything about rep in this thread nor have I ever "cried" about it.

5. If you look through the thread I have given some of the ideas that are involved with my research a few times. People want to argue about the validity and I was NEVER looking to make a thread about the argument - I ONLY WANTED TO HEAR PEOPLES THOUGHTS ABOUT THE IDEA IN GENERAL.

6. From the very beginning people have attacked the thread as if I was stupid for posting it! This is a forum "community" right? Or is it a place were people that are friends get to sit around and post and feel smart and new people either have to agree and ffer similar ideas or they get to be made fun of and told they don't have enough experience to formulate a new idea or that there past is skewed or that their teacher really hates them or that their students are bad off, etc.

7. I responded in kind to the way I was treated here. I have actually had good productive interactions with people from this thread off of this thread about this thread.

8. I am not trying to gain rep or "credibility" here on the interwebs and NO forum is going to take away from what I have done or continue to do in real life. The merits of my published work, when published, will stand on the facts by which they are based or proven wrong and I can live with that. People here are just pissed cause they want to know and got mad when they couldn't make me give them what they wanted when they wanted it.

The Daito ryu art has a long Japanese tradition that is provable from Yoshimitsu and even before. Daito ryu gained a close relationship with the Rinzai school of Zen during a critical time in its development. It is my assertion that the Chan-Zen connections afforded the transfer of exercises and techniques that led to the "creation" of the aiki introduction into the art and the subsequent "aiki no jutsu" kata. I believe that the origin of aiki and the Chen family's chan su jing is one in the same and therefore share MANY similarities (which did not ever appear before these connections). I believe that these connections for both aiki and chan su jing all come from Mt. Emei and the taoist traditions rooted there. I believe that after the longest period of instruction time by almost any student of Takeda's that Ueshiba made plans to go to China and study Bagua following the same lines that I have in reaching my belief.

There is much more that I have found and a lot of specifics but at the end of the day it will take some faith to believe anyone's ideas as the men aren't around to say and the hard historical documents to prove one or the other do not exist to my knowledge. What I do KNOW is that thanks to my study of aiki I can plainly see the similarities and concepts shared between the elements making up chan su jing and aiki and I can and have followed them to what I feel is their source.

If this offends someone or they want to call me stupid for my beliefs then fine - nothing I can say or post can stop you from doing that. Just know that men greater than myself have followed this same line of thinking and privately support them (I have come to find out while researching).


thank you everyone.

J,
Throughout the martial arts (including other history, religion, sports, etc.) there will be those who take offense to whenever something comes along different from what they have been accustomed to

Your idea is entertaining to me, because as I read about Japanese history, I found a lot things they had "copied" from so many other cultures.

But, as it maybe the case for many cultures around the world doing this, the Japanese seem to make every attempt to "save face" and cover it up.

That said, the Koreans have tried to do this on some things as well as the Chinese.

People can wave around with their hands in the air shouting "Where's the proof?", but some history is not accurate and can be lost especially before the modern era
 

pgsmith

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Its cool to say I don't think your idea is valid because xyz but to say I don't hink your idea is good because I think you suck is juvenile.

It all depends upon how "juvenile" you're feeling, since that's how you heard what he was saying. The way I heard it was "I don't think your idea is good because you don't seem to have any real knowledge about the subject." If you choose to hear 'you're ignorant" as "you suck", then that is your prerogative. If you feel that you truly aren't ignorant on the subject, perhaps you should stop and wonder why so many folks seem to think that you are. While you are contemplating that, don't forget to think about the fact that these folks are the target audience for your book.
 
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jasonbrinn

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By your own admission, you don't speak or read Japanese, nor do you speak or read Chinese.

Oh I see. That is fair and a true hurdle for my research. However, I feel that with good help and available historical records that I should be able to learn something about all of this without knowing the language. Don't most people learn martial arts without knowing the language of the country from which it originates? The Bible was also written partly in Hebrew and many preachers don't know Hebrew yet they are agreed in studies with the ones that do.

Serving in the military I was asked to comment on many things that I was not culturally an expert of after given time to conduct research and I had good results there - I guess that along with the fact that MANY people author books on subjects about cultures where they don't speak the language and seem to get acclaim has led me to believe that it is not impossible to do so.

I do appreciate your comment and belief though - it is something I would correct if only time allowed.
 
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jasonbrinn

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It all depends upon how "juvenile" you're feeling, since that's how you heard what he was saying. The way I heard it was "I don't think your idea is good because you don't seem to have any real knowledge about the subject." If you choose to hear 'you're ignorant" as "you suck", then that is your prerogative. If you feel that you truly aren't ignorant on the subject, perhaps you should stop and wonder why so many folks seem to think that you are. While you are contemplating that, don't forget to think about the fact that these folks are the target audience for your book.

Fair enough. Thank you.
 

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Hi Rickster,
I like to address this point here:
People can wave around with their hands in the air shouting "Where's the proof?", but some history is not accurate and can be lost especially before the modern era
I was one of the people asking where the proof that Daito ryu has a line going back to one of the family styles of Taijiquan. If someone brings up that they have proof of it or argues that there is/might be then the evidence is on them to state their case with evidence or at least a plausible connection. Alot of things in regard to Taijiquan are stories and trying to get to the truth is very hard to do.

I myself have provided links in this thread that have something at least plausible to Taijiquan creation but again we have alot of stories, pieces and different versions to try to organize it. Jason's connection is that Taijiquan and Aikijujutsu have a connection in Emei shan even though there is more evidence that supports Taijiquan coming around Chen village area.
 

oaktree

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Hi Jason,
I really do not know what historical records you are using in English and the sources so its a little hard to know if they are correct.
Ashida Kim says he studies Ninjutsu uses some Japanese terms and Chinese terms but he is not a credible source to use to write a book on Ninjutsu.
I know you mentioned having friends who can read the Hanzi and Kanji which does help but sometimes things get lost in translation, I was watching a video
and the person was talking about striking the Sun well what he meant was Sun as a poetic reference to a person's head, but if someone never studied that particular style or with that teacher the reference may get mistranslated.

An excellent reference to Chan si jin would be Chen Xin's work which has been translated into English.
 
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jasonbrinn

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Hi Jason,
I really do not know what historical records you are using in English and the sources so its a little hard to know if they are correct.
Ashida Kim says he studies Ninjutsu uses some Japanese terms and Chinese terms but he is not a credible source to use to write a book on Ninjutsu.
I know you mentioned having friends who can read the Hanzi and Kanji which does help but sometimes things get lost in translation, I was watching a video
and the person was talking about striking the Sun well what he meant was Sun as a poetic reference to a person's head, but if someone never studied that particular style or with that teacher the reference may get mistranslated.

An excellent reference to Chan si jin would be Chen Xin's work which has been translated into English.

I appreciate your comment and thoughtfulness. Thank you as well for your past comments and offer to help. I am not sure what the real issue is but it seems it resides with me. This is not the first time I have had these kinds of troubles and I can't really understand it. I have never tried to put myself above anyone or put anything anyone was doing down. I have only tried to be the best I could be and do my best for my family, friends and teachers, yet I seem to stir up strife and dislike for myself wherever I go.

I have not lied and I can't think of a reason why some people would think that I would not knowing me at all. I hold on to things I know to be true until someone proves to me that I am wrong - I have always considered this to be an act of integrity and honesty to the very things I say I believe. I am willing and ready to learn from anyone. My experiences have taught me that what is seen or even taught usually is different from what IS so I tend to look deeper for something else most of the time until I get it.

I have almost finished the book so I do intend on putting it out. Like most things I do I was always and still intend to offer it for free. I have put the ideas and the things I found looking for the source of Aiki in the book and they are just my ideas right or wrong. I don't nor do I intend to put out a scholarly effort to try and convince people of anything. My students and I are convinced and we will simply continue on the path we continue to find until we reach whatever destination we are headed to. It was not a mistake that I ended up training Roppokai - that too was a result from an effort that started in my childhood to find the source of Gozo Shioda's ability after reading my first martial arts book, Dynamic Aikido. Next that path led me to train "old frame" Chen Tai Chi. Now the path is leading me to Mt. Emei and who knows what.

I trained Roppokai as hard as I could for 13 years. I was honest and gave (money, time, effort, support). I did countless demos for free, taught for free, endlessly recruited and even paid for people to attend seminars. I drove to NY, and did everything I could to support Howard and the entire group. During the time between the NC Roppokai closing and starting back again I stayed in contact with Okamoto sensei. Okamoto sensei sent me books and videos to help me continue my training and I just simply repeated what I had learned over and over and have many pictures from those years of students practicing to prove it. When the group re-formed I supported it full steam. When I was asked to start over at white belt even though I had my certificates I did so. Three of my students even rose to the rank of shodan. Even after all this Howard and others ended up not liking me and more than that belittling me online. I can't honestly say nor understand why?

I have made great mistakes because I have made great strides (maybe not in view of others but great strides for a simply person like myself). I thought this thread and this community would be fun. I thought being honest and having ambition and perseverance would at the least be respected. The last time I was attacked because I supposedly didn't have the skills to teach MMA. I did everything I could to turn that around to no avail. I even went to a sparring session alone and met with people and rolled with them while having 1 crushed disc in my neck and another pushing into my spine. I even turned out a fighter who went undefeated to become a Heavyweight Champion in VA. Regardless I was made fun of and had even people like Howard saying my injuries were even fake. Now 2.5 years and spinal surgery later I thought I could start over. I changed a lot from that time and I learned a lot about myself.

It seems I still have much more to learn, however, I am starting to feel that maybe its just me that people don't care for and that is something I don't think I want to alter for other's approval.

When the book is done I will post a link here for people to freely download it (and mock it and laugh at me over it or whatever).


Thank you again to everyone.
 
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