Daito ryu has a Tai Chi lineage?

[jasonbrinn]

..........:lfao:.....just.............:lfao:

All righty then.



Seriously?

With whom did you train in daito ryu, and for how long?

With whom did you train in tai chi-what lineage-and for how long?

As for your "research," I've seen research that shows that the aliens from Area 51 are just up the road from my house, along with a laboratory that's the source for every technological advancement since Velcro. :lfao: The only real and demonstrable connection between daito ryu and tai chi is that they were both created by bipedal entities with combative applications in mind, and the use of "internal energy."

-peh!-

Hey I meant nothing by it - you are the one suggesting I am using crack.

Seriously though, I am not interested in laying out my entire book here and now - I will send you a FREE copy when I am done in a few months if you like and you can read it all there. I started this thread to hear if anyone else had stories/ideas/imaginations whatever. It seems I am alone for now and that is just fine.

As to your questions;

My Daito ryu training is from Seigo Okamoto Shihan, and I studied directly from him for 13 years.

My Tai Chi instructors were Brent Angell (student of Richard Kim - trained in both Wudang and Chen Tai Chi as well as Daito ryu under Yoshida Kotaro, Dr. Li (Yang Form - not sure on her lineage sorry) and various friends and students over the years, all of which have been 18 years.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Don't want to rain on your parade but without the characters Japanese and Chinese this means nothing and I have a problem with any chinese word pronounced Daito but then yet another issue you are running smack into is dialect

Thank You in Mandarin = xièxie
Thank you in Cantonese = dòjeh

Note similar words with different tones have very different meaning; the mandarin word Ma, depending on tone can have 4 different meanings.

Mā =媽 = Mother - tone 1
Má = 麻 = hemp - tone 2
Mǎ = 馬 = horse - tone 3
Mà = 罵 = scold - tone 4

There is no separate word for He or She in spoken Mandarin it is simply Ta but the characters are different. Also who was Diato's Sigung? Without that you have close to nothing

So without the characters it gets really hard to prove anything

And any similarity to Chen silk reeling means nothing it is likely that there was a Qigong exercise that was taken by the Chen family and used as their Chan Si Jin so at this point I do not think you have much of anything

Sorry but that is how I see it

The school of Zen that "Daito" was in came from the 临济宗 línjì zōng Chinese line. "Daito's" real name is Shuho Myocho. There is a long well-documented line coming directly from China and directly into the Samurai class and especially the Takeda family itself.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You do realize that it is highly likely the current Wudang Taiji was little to do with the historical wudang?

And Chen from who?

Yang form means what, traditional long form, Chen Manching form, 24 form, etc?

and what is the character you are using for Daito that you are linking to China?

 

[Xue Sheng]

The school of Zen that "Daito" was in came from the 临济宗 línjì zōng Chinese line. "Daito's" real name is Shuho Myocho. There is a long well-documented line coming directly from China and directly into the Samurai class and especially the Takeda family itself.

Yes but where are you getting Taijiquan.

Chan Buddhism links to Japan and Zen Buddhism from several people that does not mean they got taiji in the same way.

Myocho Shuho < Shomyo < Lan-chi Tao-lung < Wu-chun Shih-fan (and) many others

Myocho Shuho < Shomyo < Hsu-t'sang Chih-yu < Yun-an P'u-yen

Which one of them was a taijiquan person? Lan-chi Tao-lung, Wu-chun Shih-fan, Hsu-t'sang Chih-yu or Yun-an P'u-yen

 

[Xue Sheng]

Modern time is different-there's a tai chi group in Tokyo whose teacher also studied daito ryu, but that's different from what's being proposed here.

dAITO RYU HAS NO "Tai chi lineage." The very idea is preposterous.

Yes, yes it is.

And I highly doubt what is being being proposed here

 

[Xue Sheng]

BIG PROBLEM with what you are saying

Chen taiji is not considered to have come into existance until Chen Wangting (&#38472;&#29579;&#24237;; 1580&#8211;1660)
Shomyo (Daio Kokushi) 1235-1309
Myocho Shuho (Daito Kokushi) 1282-1338

Chen was born 242 years after Myocho Shuho died and historically speaking there is no proof of anything called taijiquan prior to the Wu family getting into it years after Chen Wangting died. But Chen Wangting is credited for developing what we now know as taijiquan and he was born 242 years after Myocho Shuho died.... where is the connection?

There is a slim possibility that there was something called Taiji prior to Chen Wangting but it is suspected it was a Qigong or Taiji Qigong.... no quan.

 

[elder999]

My Daito ryu training is from Seigo Okamoto Shihan, and I studied directly from him for 13 years.
.

You lived in Tokyo for 13 years, huh? What was that like?

 

[jasonbrinn]

You lived in Tokyo for 13 years, huh? What was that like?

Funny - I don't remember saying that I lived in Japan ever? Why don't you just ask a question directly or just say what you are thinking?

They have these funny things they call airplanes and quite often people from far away places use them to visit people. I know right weird, and you just thought smoking was the only way to get high.

 

[frank raud]

Hello,

I am finishing up a book on Daito ryu and in my research found considerable evidence of a linkage to Tai Chi. I am curious to hear any other opinions/stories/comments etc.


Thank you.

Jason Brinn

Is this a question or a statement? I'm confused.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Mr. Cuffee,

Did you live in Japan studying Miyama ryu jujutsu or Kyokushin?

I too studied Kyokushin, it was my first martial art! I studied under Kenny Buffaloe who was a top student of Willie Williams. I have also trained with Yukio Nishida but not in Kyokushin and not in Japan.

Why attack me? If you don't agree with my idea then just say that, or put forth some info against it.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Is this a question or a statement? I'm confused.

I am curious to hear any other opinions/stories/comments etc

Huh, seems straight forward. How about this Frank, Does anyone have any comments, stories or opinions concerning a possible link between Daito ryu and Tai Chi?

Is that better?

 

[jasonbrinn]

BIG PROBLEM with what you are saying

Chen taiji is not considered to have come into existance until Chen Wangting (&#38472;&#29579;&#24237;; 1580–1660)
Shomyo (Daio Kokushi) 1235-1309
Myocho Shuho (Daito Kokushi) 1282-1338

Chen was born 242 years after Myocho Shuho died and historically speaking there is no proof of anything called taijiquan prior to the Wu family getting into it years after Chen Wangting died. But Chen Wangting is credited for developing what we now know as taijiquan and he was born 242 years after Myocho Shuho died.... where is the connection?

There is a slim possibility that there was something called Taiji prior to Chen Wangting but it is suspected it was a Qigong or Taiji Qigong.... no quan.

The connections were made early and follow up trips due to the connections continued for a long time.

 

[elder999]

Funny - I don't remember saying that I lived in Japan ever? Why don't you just ask a question directly or just say what you are thinking?

They have these funny things they call airplanes and quite often people from far away places use them to visit people. I know right weird, and you just thought smoking was the only way to get high.

"Studied directly with him" implies regular contact to me, like two or three times a week. Since Okamoto shihan lives in Tokyo, that was what I naturally inferred from your statement-that you had lived there for 13 years-since it implied 13 years of regular contact.

I take it, then, from the rest of your quoted post, that this contact was during seminars, on a less than regular basis-that you traveled to Japan, or perhaps Italy or Denmark, where Okamoto sensei goes for seminars regularly, and perhaps attended his seminars here in the U.S.

Who, then, did you receive regular direct instruction in daito-ryu from, here in the U.S.? I'm asking that since I can infer from your original post, that you did not live in Japan for 13 years, and therefore did not "study directly" with Okamoto sensei for that time.

Just askin', since you claim awareness of and evidence for some ancient connection between daito ryu and tai chi that no recognized authority of either art has spoken or written of, and do so from an appparent perception of authority on your own part.

Please note as well, Mr. Brinn, that I've been nothing but respectul and used far less than my usual snark in my inquiries into your background-inquiries that were elicited by your claims, and that only seek to identify the authority with which you make them. My "crack-smoker" post was simply a usually snarky-and, I thought, humorous-response to what is, on the face of it, a pretty wild statement, which one might only expect to come from a drug-addled mind.

 

[frank raud]

I am curious to hear any other opinions/stories/comments etc

Huh, seems straight forward. How about this Frank, Does anyone have any comments, stories or opinions concerning a possible link between Daito ryu and Tai Chi?

Is that better?

The header is a question. Seems pretty straight forward. In the body of your original post, you say you have information showing the connection and ask what others know. Seems preety straight forward. But it is not a question. This seems obvious to me. Are you questioning that there is a possible link, or are you saying you have discovered a link that has escaped everyone else's attention all these years? That was a two part question, and should be pretty straight forward.

 

[oaktree]

lol.

So yeah - seems unlikely I know but the story goes that Daito ryu got its name from the castle Daito..... After much research it seems more plausible that it comes from the Zen founder known as "Daito" and his teacher who lived in China and was studying Buddhism. Well, "Daito's" teacher's teacher was well trained in Tai Chi (either Wudang or Chen my guess) and things were passed down IMO. Much of the highest levels of Daito and the whole concept of aiki seem remarkably similar to chan su jing exercises found historically only in Chen Tai Chi Chuan.


It's an idea I'd like to explore,


Jason Brinn

The name Daito &#22823;&#26481;[SUP] [/SUP]Means like the large or big east, in Chinese it would be like Da Dong sounds more plausible as a place than say a name of a person.
.Can you provide proof of the Chinese teacher's name in Hanzi please? Can you provide proof that this teacher was well trained in Taijiquan?

At the time Yoshimitsu(1045-1127)created Daito ryu it was during the Heian period 794-1185. Most people place Taijiquan with Chen Wangting 1580's and legends of Chen Bu in 1374.
If we go back further to Wudang the common idea is it being created by SanFeng who most likely lived in the 1200-1280's so there really is no connection between the creation of Daito ryu with roots to Taijiquan. Now is it possible that some where some one who trained in Daito ryu at some point in time met someone who trained in Taijiquan possible but this belongs in the same story of when Ueshiba traveled to China and learned Baguazhang.

 

[oaktree]

The school of Zen that "Daito" was in came from the &#20020;&#27982;&#23447; línjì z&#333;ng Chinese line. "Daito's" real name is Shuho Myocho. There is a long well-documented line coming directly from China and directly into the Samurai class and especially the Takeda family itself.

So the school he practice was from the Rinzai sect? So the person "Daito" or Shuho Myocho practices Chan Buddhism in China how does ir prove this person learned Taijiquan or Chen Taijiquan? I think we would need dates and names in Hanzi because things do not add up to me.

 

[clfsean]

Its cool - I didn't think you had anything historical, evidential or positive to add. Seriously, why post on something you think is stupid - just change the channel bro.

I have done the research, the training, etc. and the evidence is definitely there I'm afraid.

BWAHAHAHAA.... I've been "bro'd"!!

Fraid not homie.

I practice Chen. Chen was a family art only until Yang got his hands on it. Chen daughters weren't taught the family art because they left the village when married. Only Chen sons were taught because they stayed in the village. With all earnestness, it wasn't until around Chen Fa ke going to Beijing around the start of/early part of the 20th Century did it leave the village. Even then, CFK caught flak about it from the village elders, but he was that generation's standard bearer. He kinda did his own thing.

As it's been stated already by other posts, Daitoryu is either way older than Chen & if that's the case, there'd be 0 zero contact. You can flat forget inland Chinese teaching Japanese bushi class. Totally different people (by ethnicity & culture) than the seaboard folk in Fujian that taught ethnic Okinawans, not Japanese. Or Daitoryu as its known is formulated in the 19th century & again, there'd be no way inland Chinese would teach Japanese bushi class. Not gonna happen.

So... unless you got proof, I'm calling bollocks.

 

[Xue Sheng]

The connections were made early and follow up trips due to the connections continued for a long time.

How, with who, got names?

So your saying the connections lasted for over 480 years then.

The Chen family did not teach anyone outside the Chen family until they taught Yang Luchan who lived from 1799 to 1872 and they were not to open to the idea for many years after that either, due to the success of Yang Luchan and his desire to not keep it secret

I don't know as much about Japan and its history as I do China but I have to tell you that I highly doubt this connection and going back to Chen Wangting the Dynastic change from Ming to Qing did not exactly make him open to teaching foriegners, basically if you were not Han and Chen family you were not going to be taught anything so I am fairly certain there is no connection to him. There are holes in your story big enough to sail one of the ships of Zheng He through

 

[Chris Parker]

Jason, bluntly, if you want your book to be taken seriously, and to be seen as a serious researcher, I'd recommend dropping this line of thought unless you have something concrete. So far you have what you think you see as similarities, and have come up with a hypothesis that contradicts the teachings found in Daito Ryu itself, the histories involved, the dates, the places, and more, coming out as an instantly dismissed idea due to the gigantic leaps needed to make it work. The only thing in your OP that had any real basis was when you asked if anyone had any "imaginings" about a possible connection... imagination is the only way you can see one, really.

That said, I'm not entirely sure why you're trying to write a book... there are plenty of better researched ones from people with far more (direct) experience out there, and you have been found rather wanting as a researcher both presently and in the past. I can't see it being successful, aside from being lumped in with the "Koga Ryu Ninjitsu/Ashida Kim" books in terms of information.

At the time Yoshimitsu(1045-1127)created Daito ryu it was during the Heian period 794-1185. Most people place Taijiquan with Chen Wangting 1580's and legends of Chen Bu in 1374.

Er, just to address this... "at the time that Yoshimitsu IS CLAIMED to have created Daito Ryu"... the evidence is basically "Daito Ryu say so". There really isn't any evidence beyond Takeda Sokaku in the late 19th Century that has been presented. But even this shows no connection to Taiji, as there is no mention or evidence that Takeda had any exposure to it either.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Jason, bluntly, if you want your book to be taken seriously, and to be seen as a serious researcher, I'd recommend dropping this line of thought unless you have something concrete. So far you have what you think you see as similarities, and have come up with a hypothesis that contradicts the teachings found in Daito Ryu itself, the histories involved, the dates, the places, and more, coming out as an instantly dismissed idea due to the gigantic leaps needed to make it work.

I had no thought to print a BOOK here Chris. Plus I didn't want to "polute" the waters with my thinking and research before I heard others ideas and dismissals of the overall idea. I do in fact have research and concrete linkage not leaps. The history is that which has been revealed and does nothing to change that which has not yet been revealed my friend. Japanese history, even the kojiki itself, is subject to the cultural ideals and wishes of the Japanese more sometimes then the actual history that happened.

That said, I'm not entirely sure why you're trying to write a book... there are plenty of better researched ones from people with far more (direct) experience out there, and you have been found rather wanting as a researcher both presently and in the past. I can't see it being successful, aside from being lumped in with the "Koga Ryu Ninjitsu/Ashida Kim" books in terms of information.

I originally started writing the book for my students and friends so they could learn what I got from my teacher. In the book I was writing a chapter on history and realized like you and others have stated that the understood history is lacking some interesting points. I have 13 years of direct experience taught in the ONLY manner by which the art is taught. I spent time on and off the mat with my teacher asking about these very things and I have talked with others as well. I have had more than one teacher with a direct Daito line. All that aside, Pranin doesn't have a Daito line that I know of and yet he was able to research and write...?

and you have been found rather wanting as a researcher both presently and in the past

In the past? What are you referring to here friend. And I don't believe I have provided my research as of present for anyone to find anything. the people who know and train with me certainly don't find me wanting. In my former Daito ryu association I was considered one of the most if not the most knowledgeable about these things as a matter of fact - not that this means anything as my research will speak for itself.

Er, just to address this... "at the time that Yoshimitsu IS CLAIMED to have created Daito Ryu"... the evidence is basically "Daito Ryu say so". There really isn't any evidence beyond Takeda Sokaku in the late 19th Century that has been presented. But even this shows no connection to Taiji, as there is no mention or evidence that Takeda had any exposure to it either.

This is the very kind of common misunderstanding I hope to shed light on with the book Chris. Daito actually has a lot of proof in its mokuroku just by using the kanji it is written in to date it way earlier than Takeda. Takeda was taught by Saigo Tanomo and the link I draw is through him. As I already mentioned I don't wish to put forth the entire books layout here at the moment so I will defer until later on the facts that I do have.

I will make the book available to you and anyone else here that is interested once I am done.



thank you,

Jason Brinn