Daedo

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We had the developers of Daedo out at our school to demo and test their latest hardware and software and got some interesting info from them. They are coming out with hogu sizes for kids 00 and 0 and new instep guards as well.

The info is specific to the Snappy kick vs. the Power kick and why the snappy registers when the power kick does not. I was told that it is indeed a design feature and is intended for just that. The developers are black belts and did not look at making the system based on competitions but rather correct technique. The system uses proximity sensors along with impact sensors. The proximity sensors measure velocity and then the impact sensors measure force. If you don't have what they consider a high enough velocity then no matter how much impact or pressure you have it won't register. They base this on their ITF technique and training when they were taught TKD. They also have Black Belts in Shotokan Karate. Their premise is on making sure you use correct technique and not just rely on power or muscle techniques. They gave the analogy of taking a towel and swinging it very hard and as fast as you can like swinging a stick through something and to hit someone. Then take that same towel and snap it on someone. The whip effect is what has more velocity and sting vs. the simple swing. You still need power but you also need the velocity as well. Don’t get me wrong, you can be very strong and hit with a ton of power and break someone’s bones. But was the technique correct? Now we have a different issue at hand. Which is, should any kick with simply enough force be a scoring kick. If what I was told is correct then the system is working as intended. Now do we ask for the intentions to be changed? Should a kick simply just be any old type of kick that hits with enough force or do we want correct kicks? besides if you can hit hard enough to break bones then you are most likely moving fast enough to score, regardless of technique.

They said that the round kick should have the same effect as the towel, with proper hip and pivot movement at the end of the kick. They also stated that the cut kick now needs to have that same type of velocity and snap to score, rather than simply pushing forward with an extended leg and jumping into the hogu and scoring a pushy type kick.

The guy was impressed with our students and stated that he had just come from another school (won't mention the name here) and that they had a hard time scoring using the system. He stated that they had really bad technique. We had one kid that was only 9 test the system and they guy said that his velocity and power were really good. We had some students that had some trouble with the system but when using the same equipment with students with better technique they had no issue with scoring.

It again goes back to what I was thinking and talking about in another thread, and that is that one may think they are hitting hard and with good technique but in reality that may not be the case. I see many competitors kick really hard but with an almost straight leg. They have some bend but not much and the kick hits with a lot of pressure but with no snap or what I call inside impact. I have stated a few times before that I have been hit by some pretty big guys and yes it hurts. But the hardest I have been hit is from a guy 135 pounds. His kicks do not move me but I feel them deep inside my body. Big guys kicks move me and hurt to some extent but his kicks just double me over. He kicks with snap on everything.

Just and FYI.
 
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Archtkd

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The info is specific to the Snappy kick vs. the Power kick and why the snappy registers when the power kick does not. I was told that it is indeed a design feature and is intended for just that. The developers are black belts and did not look at making the system based on competitions but rather correct technique. The system uses proximity sensors along with impact sensors. The proximity sensors measure velocity and then the impact sensors measure force. If you don't have what they consider a high enough velocity then no matter how much impact or pressure you have it won't register. They base this on their ITF technique and training when they were taught TKD. They also have Black Belts in Shotokan Karate. Their premise is on making sure you use correct technique and not just rely on power or muscle techniques. They gave the analogy of taking a towel and swinging it very hard and as fast as you can like swinging a stick through something and to hit someone. Then take that same towel and snap it on someone. The whip effect is what has more velocity and sting vs. the simple swing. You still need power but you also need the velocity as well. Don’t get me wrong, you can be very strong and hit with a ton of power and break someone’s bones. But was the technique correct? Now we have a different issue at hand. Which is, should any kick with simply enough force be a scoring kick. If what I was told is correct then the system is working as intended. Now do we ask for the intentions to be changed? Should a kick simply just be any old type of kick that hits with enough force or do we want correct kicks? besides if you can hit hard enough to break bones then you are most likely moving fast enough to score, regardless of technique.

They said that the round kick should have the same effect as the towel, with proper hip and pivot movement at the end of the kick. They also stated that the cut kick now needs to have that same type of velocity and snap to score, rather than simply pushing forward with an extended leg and jumping into the hogu and scoring a pushy type kick.

The guy was impressed with our students and stated that he had just come from another school (won't mention the name here) and that they had a hard time scoring using the system. He stated that they had really bad technique. We had one kid that was only 9 test the system and they guy said that his velocity and power were really good. We had some students that had some trouble with the system but when using the same equipment with students with better technique they had no issue with scoring.

It again goes back to what I was thinking and talking about in another thread, and that is that one may think they are hitting hard and with good technique but in reality that may not be the case. I see many competitors kick really hard but with an almost straight leg. They have some bend but not much and the kick hits with a lot of pressure but with no snap or what I call inside impact. I have stated a few times before that I have been hit by some pretty big guys and yes it hurts. But the hardest I have been hit is from a guy 135 pounds. His kicks do not move me but I feel them deep inside my body. Big guys kicks move me and hurt to some extent but his kicks just double me over. He kicks with snap on everything.

Just and FYI.


Very interesting
 

armortkd

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We had the developers of Daedo out at our school to demo and test their latest hardware and software and got some interesting info from them. They are coming out with hogu sizes for kids 00 and 0 and new instep guards as well.

The info is specific to the Snappy kick vs. the Power kick and why the snappy registers when the power kick does not. I was told that it is indeed a design feature and is intended for just that. The developers are black belts and did not look at making the system based on competitions but rather correct technique. The system uses proximity sensors along with impact sensors. The proximity sensors measure velocity and then the impact sensors measure force. If you don't have what they consider a high enough velocity then no matter how much impact or pressure you have it won't register. They base this on their ITF technique and training when they were taught TKD. They also have Black Belts in Shotokan Karate. Their premise is on making sure you use correct technique and not just rely on power or muscle techniques. They gave the analogy of taking a towel and swinging it very hard and as fast as you can like swinging a stick through something and to hit someone. Then take that same towel and snap it on someone. The whip effect is what has more velocity and sting vs. the simple swing. You still need power but you also need the velocity as well. Don’t get me wrong, you can be very strong and hit with a ton of power and break someone’s bones. But was the technique correct? Now we have a different issue at hand. Which is, should any kick with simply enough force be a scoring kick. If what I was told is correct then the system is working as intended. Now do we ask for the intentions to be changed? Should a kick simply just be any old type of kick that hits with enough force or do we want correct kicks? besides if you can hit hard enough to break bones then you are most likely moving fast enough to score, regardless of technique.

They said that the round kick should have the same effect as the towel, with proper hip and pivot movement at the end of the kick. They also stated that the cut kick now needs to have that same type of velocity and snap to score, rather than simply pushing forward with an extended leg and jumping into the hogu and scoring a pushy type kick.

The guy was impressed with our students and stated that he had just come from another school (won't mention the name here) and that they had a hard time scoring using the system. He stated that they had really bad technique. We had one kid that was only 9 test the system and they guy said that his velocity and power were really good. We had some students that had some trouble with the system but when using the same equipment with students with better technique they had no issue with scoring.

It again goes back to what I was thinking and talking about in another thread, and that is that one may think they are hitting hard and with good technique but in reality that may not be the case. I see many competitors kick really hard but with an almost straight leg. They have some bend but not much and the kick hits with a lot of pressure but with no snap or what I call inside impact. I have stated a few times before that I have been hit by some pretty big guys and yes it hurts. But the hardest I have been hit is from a guy 135 pounds. His kicks do not move me but I feel them deep inside my body. Big guys kicks move me and hurt to some extent but his kicks just double me over. He kicks with snap on everything.

Just and FYI.

That's great info that the developers of Daedo provided and thanks for posting it!!! I was talking with a friend and told him that I hypothesized that the kick had to "spike" to score. He owes me $20 now!!!
 

Manny

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Thank you for the info, if I got you must kick like a whip to score, so basically the point is awarded by two factors, power and whip (good technik).

No matter you make good contact and good force or impact you must whip the kick, so maybe then a pett chagui will not score of all becaus the foot travels oblique and the dollyo chagui (where the suporting foot spins 180º) and the kicking foot hits like a whip in a perpendicular way will score most of the times.

I will like to see daedo electrnoic hogu but wahta about the e-headgear or e-helmet? and wahta about the e-glove (for punches)?

Manny
 

Gorilla

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Some problems I have is that they designed the equipment based on some unknown blackbelt view of proper technique and did not take competion or the rules intoaccount. This was true of lajust also. The rule states strike with any part of the foot below the ankle bone and nothing of proper technique. You have played with the system I am sure that you are aware of how shake off kick to decrease the power of the attacker. This is common at the elite level make the head kick more important. It has changed the game. We have spoken with and trained with Olympians past and present and everyone said the game has changed. Some like some don't but all have had to change what they do.

I don't have a problem with any system. Change the rules or design a system that fits the rule set. Would prefer to see the electronic head gear used also.
 
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Some problems I have is that they designed the equipment based on some unknown blackbelt view of proper technique and did not take competion or the rules intoaccount. This was true of lajust also. The rule states strike with any part of the foot below the ankle bone and nothing of proper technique. You have played with the system I am sure that you are aware of how shake off kick to decrease the power of the attacker. This is common at the elite level make the head kick more important. It has changed the game. We have spoken with and trained with Olympians past and present and everyone said the game has changed. Some like some don't but all have had to change what they do.

I don't have a problem with any system. Change the rules or design a system that fits the rule set. Would prefer to see the electronic head gear used also.
Yep that is why I say now the debate should be about the system intentions. Not if the system works or not.

The E-head gear works pretty good by the way.
 

Gorilla

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100% agree, it is very interesting of they put these systems together. Lajust consulted with the WTF. Whoever They spoke with thought that backside scoring was way to common so they made sure lajust did not put sensors in the back eliminating back side scoring. The reason that we don't have the electronic head gear is because they want to keep the referees in the scoring. They have the technology to score punches also but the WTF wont allow for the same reason.

It is not a surprise that one of the designers of Daedo is a Shotokan guy. They designed a system that makes Tkd look more like Shotokan. Funakoshi's revenge!
 

Manny

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It is not a surprise that one of the designers of Daedo is a Shotokan guy. They designed a system that makes Tkd look more like Shotokan. Funakoshi's revenge!

Wow!!!! deon't feed the trolls LOL!!!

I think that we need to have at an accesible prize (so dojangs can have at leat one pair of hogus in diferent sizes) good electronic equipment, if daedo system works using the power of whip kicks that's ok as long has this will be the only one e-equipment so everyone can use one of the hogus and feel satisfied with it and know that no matter they do sparring in his/her dojang or in teh local or national or even international match the same equipment is gona be used so the competitor does not have to change the way of the game.

I think at dojang level the equipment must be affordable so the students can be familiar with it and learn how to score with it.

Manny
 

Manny

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I think the e-hogu must be:
1.-Affordable.
2.-Acurate.
3.-Durable.
4.-No need of e-socks or e-gloves (I don't like this kind of devices with sensores) the hogu must work bare foot and hand.
4.-The punch can and must score.

Anithing else?

Manny
 

terryl965

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The problem is they will never be affordable for all period. That is the way of life, those that can offord will and succeed and those that cannot will just be doing the old style tournaments. Don't worry if you have talentt somebody will find you and take over your training for the gain kater in life.
 

Tenchi

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This is good news... yet irrelevant. WTF rules have been constantly changing in what matters to kicks to the head. The fact is, while apparently development is being made so that one can only score with a correct technique at the torso (which will improve accurate technique and imo, better development of what Taekwondo is), scoring to the head is more advantageous point wise and now, even in terms of actual technique. Apparently, any touch with the foot to the head is now point worthy, regardless of technique or power. Basically, raise your leg and if you so much as poke your opponent's head, you score.
 

Gorilla

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Whose version of correct technique. The WTF or some random black belt at the manufacturer. Or a bureaucrat with an agenda at the WTF. The rule on kicks to the body have not changed. I can deal with rule changes!

The current systems were developed with personal agendas in mind not the rules!

Changes the rules OK! but eh systems must be designed for the current rule set.
 
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I think most if not all of the top competitors in the world, will have good enough technique to score on the hogu. I also think that many not all, of the above average competitors will also have enough technique to score on the hogu.

If you think about it, only the catagories of Top and Above Average are who really need to worry about this anyways. Everyone else does this game just for fun and won't get anywhere near a National title, World Championships, or the Olympics. Everyone else will compete at local tournaments with judges with triggers. The system is really designed for the Elite, those that kick so fast that judges can't score properly. I think this is why the same names just stay on top. They are just that much better than eveyone else. And it is the everyone else that complains. The compaints may not even matter in the end.
 

armortkd

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Electronic Hogu & Scoring: Making the easy kicks harder to score & Making the difficult kicks easier to score (with point differential).
 

Gorilla

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Agreed...top end fighters can score on the system...they also know how to game the system...on the girls side it has become all lead leg....cut kicks and those snappy little kicks to the head....2010 Spanish open one of the Current USAT National team coaches said that the Europeans are starting to look like Karate fighters...my son has fought 6 matches on Daedo against high end juniors 2of them national team members only had 2 body points score on him in 6 matches...if you know what you are doing you can make it very difficult for your opponent to land those sensors flush...even of they have good technique....he won 4 fights lost 2. Damn head kicks
 
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Agreed...top end fighters can score on the system...they also know how to game the system...on the girls side it has become all lead leg....cut kicks and those snappy little kicks to the head....2010 Spanish open one of the Current USAT National team coaches said that the Europeans are starting to look like Karate fighters...my son has fought 6 matches on Daedo against high end juniors 2of them national team members only had 2 body points score on him in 6 matches...if you know what you are doing you can make it very difficult for your opponent to land those sensors flush...even of they have good technique....he won 4 fights lost 2. Damn head kicks
Yes, going to the body is now harder. Guarding actully works now. It use to be that you could guard but still get points scored on you, not anymore, I like this. Also you can reduce impact now by moving with the kick, again, I like this. It goes with they teaching of moving or rolling with a kick or punch to minimize impact. I know for the sport it changed some things, but I think the change can make you better at everything.

Here is a clip of the guys that came out to our studio. He talks a bit about his engineering background and his son but not he MA background.
[yt]XZpNIF8T9Ss[/yt]
 

Gorilla

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Well said art...you gave me a new perspective on rolling with the kicks.

My only real objection is that these two guys basically rewrote the sport. I would have to agree that they have designed the best system. The whole foot should score not parts of it.
 
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Well said art...you gave me a new perspective on rolling with the kicks.

My only real objection is that these two guys basically rewrote the sport. I would have to agree that they have designed the best system. The whole foot should score not parts of it.
Now that is a true statement. And all because his kid was not winning.
 

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