Curl Up In A Ball....

[arnisador]

As to fighting or not...are you a fighter or not? I'm thinking this old soldier preferred going out swinging. Sure fighting could escalate the situation...and acquiesceing could result in getting killed without ever putting up a fight. Id like to think Id go down swinging too.

That may well have been what he was thinking--if he had time to think it through--and to my mind that's a personal decision. But the question is, did it help? I think the answer is a clear no. Whether fighting back is or is not a good general rule, and whether it is or is not a person's personal philosophy, is one thing--but a big part of the message here is that it can make things worse, and that appears to have been the case here. I see the chief's comments as simply factual, not a prescription for others in future events.

 

[Tgace]

Its not about "thinking" about it IMO...that decision was probably formed in him many years ago.

Id take my chances making things "worse" compared to going out without a fight. Of course you should fight "smart". But this was a combat vet...his actions are what he was.

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[Dirty Dog]

That may well have been what he was thinking--if he had time to think it through--and to my mind that's a personal decision. But the question is, did it help? I think the answer is a clear no. Whether fighting back is or is not a good general rule, and whether it is or is not a person's personal philosophy, is one thing--but a big part of the message here is that it can make things worse, and that appears to have been the case here. I see the chief's comments as simply factual, not a prescription for others in future events.

I don't think it's anything resembling "a clear no". If your preference is to go down a fighter, not a victim, then the old soldier got his (last) wish. In the grand scheme of things, he's also protected others with his death, since a conviction now will certainly lead to these thugs being off the street for longer.

 

[billc]

deleted because I skipped ahead and didn't see Bob's post first...I'll private message this post instead...if you saw this post before I deleted it...please un-see it...

 

[billc]

I saw a case where three guys robbed a motel clerk. There was a security camera that caught the whole event. The clerk didn't fight back, gave them the money and they left. Then, as the clerk got up off the floor from behind the counter, one of the criminals ran back in and shot him. Luckily, he was a body builder and the layer of muscle in his abdomen kept the bullet from killing him. Sometines even not fighting back will get you killed.

 

[billc]

Here is a different story of a 73 year old defending a neighbor...

http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx

A 73-year-old retired teacher was at home in Oakland Park, Fla. when a burglar smashed a window to gain access to the house. The homeowner retrieved a gun, went to investigate, and discovered the thief just outside the home, carrying a TV and attacking a neighbor intent on reporting the crime. The homeowner fired at the criminal, striking him several times and causing him to flee to a nearby getaway vehicle. A short time later, police found the getaway vehicle wrecked, with the thief still inside it, about a mile away. The homeowner made clear to a local media outlet that he did not relish being forced to defend himself and his neighbor, but one of his friends offered effusive praise, stating, “Good for him; wonderful. I wish more people would do that. It’s ridiculous for people to break into homes and think they can get away with it.”

 

[arnisador]

I don't think it's anything resembling "a clear no". If your preference is to go down a fighter, not a victim, then the old soldier got his (last) wish. In the grand scheme of things, he's also protected others with his death, since a conviction now will certainly lead to these thugs being off the street for longer.

That's a nice way to look at it.

I do wonder if there is some projection going on, though, in those saying (in essence) that because he was a veteran he would rather die fighting than let this happen without fighting back. I know veterans who would rather live and lose what's in their wallet. I know a cadet who was jumped by a couple of guys last year on Spring Break (by general trouble-makers more than muggers, apparently) and literally did the curl-up-in-a-ball to protect himself--he was a senior with a lot to look forward to and didn't want to lose it to random violence. He missed several classes due to (minor) surgeries but was glad he was still going to be commissioned rather than losing out due to an injury suffered in a one-off event like this. He holed up and weathered the blows until they moved on and is now a happy 2Lt. Sometimes living well is the best revenge.

It'd be interesting to hear what the 88 year old victim's family would say about his attitude toward this type of thing.

 

[arnisador]

I saw a case where three guys robbed a motel clerk. There was a security camera that caught the whole event. The clerk didn't fight back, gave them the money and they left. Then, as the clerk got up off the floor from behind the counter, one of the criminals ran back in and shot him. Luckily, he was a body builder and the layer of muscle in his abdomen kept the bullet from killing him. Sometines even not fighting back will get you killed.

I don't think you can ever know, and I don't give one-size-fits-all advice to my arnis students. I don't judge anyone who has to make a snap decision in a dangerous situation with inadequate information. I recall reading once that for sexual assault cases fighting back significantly decreases the odds of the attack being successful--good--and significantly increases the odds of suffering a more severe physical injury--bad. How can I judge someone who makes their own decision on winning vs. surviving?

 

[billc]

I know a cadet who was jumped by a couple of guys last year on Spring Break (by general trouble-makers more than muggers, apparently) and literally did the curl-up-in-a-ball to protect himself--he was a senior with a lot to look forward to and didn't want to lose it to random violence. He missed several classes due to (minor) surgeries but was glad he was still going to be commissioned rather than losing out due to an injury suffered in a one-off event like this.

See, that is the problem with something like this...if you curl up in a ball...the violent criminal controls the entire outcome of the situation and it is up to his good will or you being lucky that determines the level of injury you sustain. He was "lucky," that the injuries were only minor, after all he still had injuries that required surgery so the attack was actually pretty severe, and the fact that the criminal didn't escalate and do worse was left entirely up to the criminal and his whims. You can never know the outcome of a decision until it is made...but leaving your fate in the hands of a person who has decided that violently attacking you is a viable way to have fun or make a living is something to really think about. Curling up in a ball is giving control entirely to that kind of person...

 

[arnisador]

Yeah, but fighting back against several guys is also not a winning proposition. This worked for him and he's going on happily with his life so I mark it a self-defense success. In a lot of cases fighting back would've been better.

I was mugged by 3 guys in 1989 (!) and fought back--they just started swinging at me so I had little choice. I ran around, managed to keep only one on me at a time (I couldn't outrun them), knocked one down with a strike and fazed another. Eventually they got frustrated enough that one pulled out a knife that they hadn't brought out initially and they tried to crowd me up against a wall. I got out from that trap--blocking a stab at my abdomen--and said Hey, here's my wallet! I tossed it at them and took off. Three guys with a knife? No thanks--I had too much to live for at that time. When I told the grandmaster of our art (the very next day, as it turned out--I had already had plans to attend a camp starting that day), I thought he'd be disappointed that I couldn't say they were all in the hospital. He was very, very proud of me though--for being able to defend myself when they were unarmed and for being smart enough to just give them my wallet (containing, no joke, $2 in it) and get out when I got the chance. Within the next 5 months I expected to get my black belt (that week, in fact), graduate college, start my first-ever full-time job, and marry my fiancee. I don't regret at all not going a few more rounds with them. And had the three of them, apparently unarmed, walked up to me and demanded my wallet, I likely would've swallowed my pride, angled to be able to make an escape as I talked to them, tossed it at their feet and taken off in the other direction. It wouldn't be worth it to me to have even a permanent facial scar over two bucks.

 

[billc]

Well, I'm glad you made it out okay. Looking at the case from the thread though, how much of a struggle could this man have given them at his age...and they still killed him. This isn't the only story recently of teenagers killing people. I think decades of children raising children may be reaching the point where killing is just not that big of a deal to these teenagers...the Australian ballplayer was just shot, and there are some of the other stories out there...

 

[billc]

I just saw this story...

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/20...n-gang-raped-by-juveniles-in-wilmington-park/

Police say two women, ages 32 and 24, were reportedly attacked and sexually assaulted by a group of 10 to 12 black male juveniles in Kosciuszko Park at about 6:54 p.m. Thursday. According to police, the suspects, who range in age from 12 to 17-years-old, remain on the loose.
The victims were transported to Christiana Hospital for treatment.
Wilmington police increased patrols Friday in the park which is located in the 600 block of South Franklin Street in the Hedgeville Community.
The women were released from the hospital Friday, but as of Friday night, police had no suspects and no witnesses.

“The new criminal we’re seeing, they’re bold, they’re brazen, and they have a total disregard for life,” said Maria Cabrera, city councilwoman-at-large in Wilmington.

By the way...I will not edit content for the purposes of political correctness...

There is also this story...

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2013...-smash-grab-incident-involving-elderly-woman/

An 82-year-old woman went home Thursday after spending two weeks first in the hospital, and then in rehab.
She was discharged hours after 18-year-old Michael Duku of the North Side was taken into custody on charges including robbery, assault and conspiracy.
Police say Duku and another man shoved the elderly woman to the sidewalk two weeks ago after she attended Sunday church services in Homestead. Duku ran off with her purse.

All they did was shove her and she fell...and this is how badly she was injured...

Buczak told KDKA-TV’s Ralph Iannotti that she’s in good spirits, adding, “She suffered a broken shoulder, broken orbital bones in her face and a big cut above her eye. She’ll be in a sling for six to eight weeks now.”

And then what do you do if the attack is done with a weapon...

http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201...sered-sexually-assaulted-forest-park-cops-say

A 69-year-old woman jogging in Forest Parkwas Tasered and sexually assaulted just months after a similar attack, police said.
The woman was running in the park Monday around 4:30 p.m. when a man Tasered her, pushed her to the ground and sexually assaulted her, police said.

 

[arnisador]

Looking at the case from the thread though, how much of a struggle could this man have given them at his age...and they still killed him

I've wondered that too. We'll never know for sure if it could've been made less bad.

 

[MJS]

In keeping with the idea of discussing the SD aspects of the case...


Those who have read the story of how I lost an eye won't be surprised to hear that I am not in favor of 'going along'.

There's no one-size-fits-all answer, but I am pretty well convinced that allowing the criminal to decide when things get physical is often not a good choice. My personal plan is to play along just as long as it takes for the bad guy to be distracted for one moment, and then do everything in my power to drop them like a bad habit.

Want my wallet? Here it is. But I'll drop it when I pass it over. When your eyes reflexively follow it down, don't be surprised if I decide to change the direction of our encounter...

Finally, some posts that should've been here in the first place. Before I comment any further, I'd like to apologize for taking this a bit off track. Despite resistance from one person, I did attempt to make my point clear, as to what I wanted to discuss. Apparently it failed early on, but hey, we're all human, and now at least we're getting somewhere.

Anyways...you're right...there is no 1 size fits all solution, thus why I always talk about assessing each situation accordingly. I think a lot of the time, when people hear 'fight back' they think it's 'on' from the get go. I like and agree with what you said in regards to handing over the wallet. If you're going to do something, take advantage of that opportunity, when handing over the wallet, the keys, etc.

 

[MJS]

I saw a case where three guys robbed a motel clerk. There was a security camera that caught the whole event. The clerk didn't fight back, gave them the money and they left. Then, as the clerk got up off the floor from behind the counter, one of the criminals ran back in and shot him. Luckily, he was a body builder and the layer of muscle in his abdomen kept the bullet from killing him. Sometines even not fighting back will get you killed.

Same thing happened in this case
http://articles.courant.com/2012-06..._meriden-robbery-police-officers-dark-t-shirt

"A witness who was inside the store at the time of the shooting told police a man entered the store with a gun and demanded money. The witness said that once the man got the money, he shot the clerk in the chest and left."

 

[billc]

How do you guess the intention of the criminal? How do you know that he isn't just going to kill you after you hand the money over?

Another story from one of the detective shows on the Discovery Channel...

Three guys go to a bank president's home at 3 in the morning and take him hostage. He goes with them to the bank, opens the safe and gives them all the money. They then take him to a bridge, duct tape him to a chair with a cement block duct taped to it and toss him, alive, into the river, where he drowns to death. At the beginning of the attack at his house he did try to escape out the back door. His biggest mistake is that 1) he answered his door at 3 a.m. without knowing who was knocking and 2) he answered his door at 3 a.m. without a gun in his hand or on his belt...a gun may have saved his life...

 

[Tgace]

Then there was that horror story of the two men who raped and a mother and two daughters and set their house on fire killing them...the father was bound and beat with a hammer but survived. The criminals said that if the father had faught when they first entered the home they likely would have fled...they are *******s and liars of course....

I also don't know if I support the whole "you have to evaluate the situation" meme either. You have a split second to "evaluate"....a guy with a gun demanding your wallet? Yes...give it up. Two guys pushing you around? Trying to "evaluate" only pushes you into down the OODA loop without taking action.

In the end I think my issue with THIS case is a police chief manking ANY statement about defending oneself.

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[billc]

I guess it is a go with your gut situation and hope that it turns out the right way...after all, it isn't your fault that these thugs decided to put you in that position...they deserve whatever they get...

 

[Tgace]

I guess it is a go with your gut situation and hope that it turns out the right way...after all, it isn't your fault that these thugs decided to put you in that position...they deserve whatever they get...

Where this discussion naturally leads to is pre-conflict planning.

Something taught to LEOs...and something I try to do...is to think through as many scenarios as I can, sometimes right as I am approaching a scene, and mentally rehearse what I would do.

The time to think about what you would do if two men walk through your front door is not during the moment they actually do it.

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[arnisador]

In the end I think my issue with THIS case is a police chief manking ANY statement about defending oneself.

I disagree in two ways: First, I should be able to turn to the law enforcement establishment for evidence-based advice on what happens in actual, not theoretical, conflicts. And don't police often give self-defense talks--to kids, women's groups, seniors? Second, looking at the actual text of what this police said about this case: ‘Our information is that the individual fought back and that may have made this, you know, a worse situation,’ said Spokane Police Chief Frank Straub. He seems to me to be making a factual statement about a single case that is being read by others as general advice, and I think that's unfair. He gave no advice; he stated that they believed in this one case, fighting back aggravated the situation. Unless you believe that resistance can never make a bad situation worse, then I don't see what the basis is for jumping on him--especially since he knows more about what happened than we do at this point.

(I say this despite knowing that Frank Straub resigned in disgrace as Director of Public Safety--an odd sort-of parallel police chief position created as an aspect of the city-county unigov merger-- for nearby Indianapolis after a string of police "errors" that resulted in the destruction of evidence against a police officer who killed someone while apparently driving drunk. I was glad to see him go--it was an infuriating situation, and he not only failed to control it but made matters worse.)

Where this discussion naturally leads to is pre-conflict planning.

Something taught to LEOs...and something I try to do...is to think through as many scenarios as I can, sometimes right as I am approaching a scene, and mentally rehearse what I would do.

The time to think about what you would do if two men walk through your front door is not during the moment they actually do it.

This is important advice for all martial artists, and I certainly do it and discuss it in class.