Curious about the differences in judo\jjj and bjj.

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Monkey Turned Wolf

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So for instance, let's assume (completely made up %'s; replace them with what you feel is accurate, IMO it depends on the person and their base athleticism/talent, along with where they are in the training), that the ideal way to become better at BJJ is to spend 50% conditioning, 50% learning technique/drilling/sparring. For the sake of even numbers, you train BJJ like a full time job-40 hours per week. Now let's assume you supplement that time with yoga. If you're using it as a conditioning tool, it becomes part of the conditioning aspect. Now a small portion of time for any conditioning is learning how to do that conditioning. Let's say that, after a few months of doing yoga, 90% of yoga is improving flexibility, core stabilization, whatever else, and the other 10% is learning new positions/improving how you do position. And over time that will decrease. So you spend half your conditioning time doing yoga-that's 10 hours a week, but 9/10 hours are directly improving your athleticism in a way that helps your BJJ. That would be using yoga as conditioning.

Let's take the same activities, BJJ and yoga. Now you're treating yoga and BJJ as two separate activities you enjoy. So you spend an equal time doing both of them. Or even, let's assume you like BJJ more so you spend 25 hours BJJ and 15 hours yoga. Now, instead of taking specifically from the conditioning time, which for BJJ should involve core and flexibility as well, you are taking away 7.5 hours from that, and 7.5 hours from technique/drilling/sparring. So your ratio is slightly off (from 20-20 to 27.5-12.5), making you less efficient-you'll be more athletic than you otherwise would be, but you'll learn/develop BJJ skills less quickly.

Now let's take a different activity-basketball. I'm using that simply because I know very little about breakdancing so can't really use it as an example. For basketball you need to have good hand-eye coordination, cardio, quick movements, and be able to use short bursts of energy while also recovering your energy/stamina at different points while still remaining active. Pretty similar, sans flexibility (which is also important but much less so), to the conditioning that you need for BJJ. There's also a mental part where you have to be focusing and thinking on a larger picture while you're engaged physically, also similar to BJJ. But to me it would only fit as a complementary activity.

For basketball you have specific skills that you need to learn - how to shoot, how to pass, pick and roles, observing your teammates and finding holes in the floor, and feints. No matter how good your conditioning is, you won't be good if you can't shoot, or spend the entire time ignoring your teammates and staying guarded. So let's say you decide to replace 10 hours of your conditioning with basketball, instead of with yoga. Now you've got to spend a decent amount of that time doing partner drills, or even if you're just training for one-on-one b-ball, you have to spend a lot of that time working on your shot. Which still does condition your cardio and footwork a bit, but less so. So instead of wasting 1 hour a week, you're now wasting 5.

Not the biggest thing, but let's say that you do the same split from earlier where you're training them both as complementary rather than one as a tool for the other, with the same 25/15 split. So the split is now listed as: 12.5 hours BJJ conditioning, 12.5 hours BJJ tech, 7.5 hours basketball conditioning, and 7.5 hours basketball tech. Some of the conditioning for basketball might not be fully relevant, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and say it's so complementary that all of it fits. That's now 20 hours BJJ conditioning, and 12.5 hours BJJ tech. So now you're still learning less in the skills/tech department, with no change to your conditioning.

And again, those numbers and ratio are subject to change, the ones I used was mostly for ease of illustrating the concept.
Incidentally, this argument is very similar to the one that you could use against kata. That you're taking away time from learning useful technique and/or conditioning, since even if you view kata as conditioning, time is taken away from that by learning the kata itself when you could be drilling something more directly useful.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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@monkey turned wolf said this, and it confused me there, as well. If you are engaging in any activity because you think it helps your boxing, is that activity not then, by definition, targeted at boxing?
So to clarify my point with this, that depends on intent. If you're engaging in breakdancing specifically to help your BJJ, then yes that would be targeted at BJJ. It would also probably impact what you focus on with breakdancing. If you're engaging in breakdancing because you enjoy it, and you also happen to think that it's likely helping your BJJ, that is no longer targeted at BJJ.

So, you're saying being so good at jumping rope you can do tricks is unworthwhile? You're spending so much time jumping rope, anyway, and there are competitions.... https://www.usajumprope.org/events
That depends. The time you spend learning the tricks is time you take away from actually jumping rope. Since it's still physical, but from experience it's less cardio since you end up stopping a bunch, each time you mess up. If those tricks increase the difficulty of jumping rope, then in the long run it's beneficial since it will increase the efficacy of your cardio conditioning.


I think you give amateurs short shrift. In my mind, the difference in performance level between two elite level athletes is relatively small. In some sports, it's 10's or even 100's of a second. If we want to see whether this idea of complimentary activities works, it would start at the bottom of the learning curve, with rank beginners, and then go from there.
I don't think I'm shorting amateurs, I just think that for the most part the difference I'm talking about is negligible, due to diminishing returns. Particularly when other factors can overshadow it.
 

Steve

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So I think our views are pretty similar, but not quite the same. If we're focusing on the average guy, not Demetrius Johnson or similar;
Funny that you mention Mighty Mouse, as he is also a high level "e-athlete" and puts a lot of hours into improving his gaming ability. Look it up. I don't know whether his focus is complimentary or not to his MMA training, but either way, it seems relevant to this discussion.
I agree that there wouldn't be too much of a difference if you had someone who trained BJJ 20 hours a week, and 10 hours of breakdancing or yoga, vs. a guy that trained BJJ 30 hours a week. The first guy would start off stronger, but eventually they'd even out and other factors (talent, effort at the gym, etc.), will have a bigger impact. Largely because of the diminishing returns idea.
True... AND... while the guy who trains 30 hours a week will not experience significant improvement in BJJ over the guy who only trains 20 hours of BJJ and also does breakdancing, the guy who does 20 hours of BJJ and 10 hours of breakdancing will become MUCH better at breakdancing than the guy who doesn't do it. I know that seems obvious, but it's definitely relevant to remember that we're not just talking about one activity. We're talking about performance in one vs performance in more than one.
As for if marathons, etc. would stunt progress-no. It wouldn't stunt the progress, since it's still something that's helping growth. The only way it would stunt is if time spent improving your BJJ is lost in favor of training for that marathon.

And the spot where I draw the line, and largely conditioning focused around it/conditioning not focused around it, is how much time you spend conditioning vs. learning. I'm going to put that in a separate post to break it up since it's longer than I initially thought. And that will also hopefully help explain my view on whether or not training a complimentary style/sport/activity/whatever is more or less helpful than training the activity.
Sounds good. Suffice to say, I'm curious how you distinguish between "focused on" and "not focused on" because it seems very squishy to me.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I think a lot of folks compete in a lot of different things. I can think of several BJJ world champions who were very successful in professional MMA. Same with elite boxers, wrestlers and other sports.

But that said, I asked others and I'll ask you too. Does success mean elite level success? I mean, if you don't compete in the UFC are you unsuccessful in MMA? Because I think that that skews the discussion.
I've been pretty clear about what I'm talking about. I even made a point to state it clearly in one of my responses to you.
 

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Incidentally, this argument is very similar to the one that you could use against kata. That you're taking away time from learning useful technique and/or conditioning, since even if you view kata as conditioning, time is taken away from that by learning the kata itself when you could be drilling something more directly useful.
Agree completely. My opinion on kata is exactly this. It's not fighting. It's its own thing... directly analogous to yoga for BJJ, IMO. And if you think it helps your fighting, great. The only issue I ever have with kata is when folks supplant application with kata. Yoga can help your BJJ performance, but it's not going to replace actually fighting with BJJ. In the same way, performing kata may help your performance in karate, but it won't actually replace fighting with karate.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I think someone who is good at breakdancing would have a significant advantage even as a beginner in BJJ. It would seem to me that the strength, coordination, body awareness, and rhythm a break dancer develops would be very complimentary to BJJ. And conversely, training in BJJ could help a person become a better breakdancer.
Here you're talking about an already-developed skill, it seems, rather than someone who's training BJJ adding on breakdancing to build BJJ.
 

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I've been pretty clear about what I'm talking about. I even made a point to state it clearly in one of my responses to you.
I missed it in the word salad of the thread, and I can't tell in print whether you're being curt or not. Is there a reason you aren't just answering the direct question?
 

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Here you're talking about an already-developed skill, it seems, rather than someone who's training BJJ adding on breakdancing to build BJJ.
either/or. It could be someone who does BJJ adding breakdancing, someone who breakdances adding BJJ, or someone who's starting both at the same time.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Funny that you mention Mighty Mouse, as he is also a high level "e-athlete" and puts a lot of hours into improving his gaming ability. Look it up. I don't know whether his focus is complimentary or not to his MMA training, but either way, it seems relevant to this discussion. True... AND... while the guy who trains 30 hours a week will not experience significant improvement in BJJ over the guy who only trains 20 hours of BJJ and also does breakdancing, the guy who does 20 hours of BJJ and 10 hours of breakdancing will become MUCH better at breakdancing than the guy who doesn't do it. I know that seems obvious, but it's definitely relevant to remember that we're not just talking about one activity. We're talking about performance in one vs performance in more than one.Sounds good. Suffice to say, I'm curious how you distinguish between "focused on" and "not focused on" because it seems very squishy to me.
Didn't know that about the mouse-I'll have to look into that. Sounds interesting.
Regarding the breakdancing-yup. In terms of being well-rounded, that's the better choice. It's also why I was saying this is an issue more for professionals than amateurs-for the professional you probably want to maximize your efficiency towards one thing. For the amateur, being good at more than one thing is always a plus vs. being marginally better at the one thing.

As for focused on vs. not focused on, that comes down to intent. So with basketball as conditioning for BJJ-if I'm focusing on it as conditioning, my goal is to get better at BJJ. So I'll be doing more suicides, more quick turn passes to improve my flexibility, things like that. Not as much of specific footwork drills that are conditioning, but don't have much relevance to BJJ.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I missed it in the word salad of the thread, and I can't tell in print whether you're being curt or not. Is there a reason you aren't just answering the direct question?
Because I literally answered it directly to you the first time you asked it.
 

Gerry Seymour

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either/or. It could be someone who does BJJ adding breakdancing, someone who breakdances adding BJJ, or someone who's starting both at the same time.
If we are working with the limited time commitment of the more average MAist, it matters a lot. Take their available hobby time and commit it to BJJ, vs. commit it to BJJ + learning breakdancing. That'll get you a wildly different result in a year vs. having that breakdancing (and all the resultant athletic development) already in place.
 

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So to clarify my point with this, that depends on intent. If you're engaging in breakdancing specifically to help your BJJ, then yes that would be targeted at BJJ. It would also probably impact what you focus on with breakdancing. If you're engaging in breakdancing because you enjoy it, and you also happen to think that it's likely helping your BJJ, that is no longer targeted at BJJ.
Got it, I think. So, you're saying if you breakdance because you enjoy it, it's not longer focused on BJJ, and so it will not help your BJJ? But if you breakdance because you want to focus on ways to improve your BJJ, it would benefit your BJJ training? If I have that right, can you explain how that works? I would think that earnest training in breakdancing because you enjoy it would be intrinsically beneficial to your BJJ training, whether that's your specific intent or not. You're not going to get stronger, more flexible, more agile and dynamic doing breakdancing with BJJ in mind than otherwise.
That depends. The time you spend learning the tricks is time you take away from actually jumping rope. Since it's still physical, but from experience it's less cardio since you end up stopping a bunch, each time you mess up. If those tricks increase the difficulty of jumping rope, then in the long run it's beneficial since it will increase the efficacy of your cardio conditioning.
It's all cardio, and we already agreed that there is a point of diminishing return on the amount of time you devote to any single activity. Once again, the question here is how does jumping rope with a boxing focus differ in a material way than a boxer who jumps rope with a rope jumping competition focus? I think the latter person will be a better rope jumper, but will the former be a worse boxer?
I don't think I'm shorting amateurs, I just think that for the most part the difference I'm talking about is negligible, due to diminishing returns. Particularly when other factors can overshadow it.
I disagree, and think that the difference for amateurs is simply a more pronounced difference than we would see for professionals. The learning curve is steeper, and so the benefits are more obvious.

Is it possible that a professional athlete's focus on a single sport vs multiple sports is more mental than physical? I mean, when we talk about jumping rope for competition vs jumping rope as a conditioning activity, is it reasonable to suggest that a professional boxer doesn't train for rope jumping competitions simply because few to none have any interest in professional rope jumping? And conversely, I believe we can all think of examples of professional athletes who become interested in other sports or competitions, and who quickly and easily either do both or switch between the two. I can think of several very high level professional MMA fighters who are also very high level, active BJJ competitors, for example.
 

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If we are working with the limited time commitment of the more average MAist, it matters a lot. Take their available hobby time and commit it to BJJ, vs. commit it to BJJ + learning breakdancing. That'll get you a wildly different result in a year vs. having that breakdancing (and all the resultant athletic development) already in place.
I think it depends on the amount of hobby time we're talking about. For example, a guy with 10 hours a week may benefit from a singular focus. But 20 hours a week? Would 20 hours in BJJ yield better BJJ results than 10 hours of BJJ and 10 hours of breakdancing? I don't believe so, but the second guy would definitely be a better breakdancer.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Got it, I think. So, you're saying if you breakdance because you enjoy it, it's not longer focused on BJJ, and so it will not help your BJJ? But if you breakdance because you want to focus on ways to improve your BJJ, it would benefit your BJJ training? If I have that right, can you explain how that works?
Not quite. If you breakdance because you enjoy it, rather than focusing on it for BJJ. It'll probably still help you towards BJJ. Just not as much as it would if BJJ were your main focus. And not as much as training for BJJ.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Once again, the question here is how does jumping rope with a boxing focus differ in a material way than a boxer who jumps rope with a rope jumping competition focus? I think the latter person will be a better rope jumper, but will the former be a worse boxer?
That really depends. I'm not sure how those competitions work, if 100% of it is transferable to cardio, then there won't be a difference. If it's not all transferable, then it is.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Is it possible that a professional athlete's focus on a single sport vs multiple sports is more mental than physical? I mean, when we talk about jumping rope for competition vs jumping rope as a conditioning activity, is it reasonable to suggest that a professional boxer doesn't train for rope jumping competitions simply because few to none have any interest in professional rope jumping? And conversely, I believe we can all think of examples of professional athletes who become interested in other sports or competitions, and who quickly and easily either do both or switch between the two. I can think of several very high level professional MMA fighters who are also very high level, active BJJ competitors, for example.
So I think that first part depends, and not sure if we can get a direct answer for that, beyond specific individuals. Overall, I think professional boxers are probably more competitive than most people, so they may be more likely to train for competitions, but at the same time I can see them view it as simply a tool, and not care about competing with it. So different boxers different answers.

As for the athlete thing-I don't really know what point you're making with that. The fact that some people can/do switch between them, doesn't mean it's the most effective route to do it. And with MMA and BJJ I think that might be an exception to the idea, considering just how similar they are-nearly 100% of BJJ can be transferred directly into MMA, so for one-direction there is nothing being lost. And then there are other people who aren't high-level BJJers (meaning they don't enter high-level BJJ comps) that are high level MMA fighters that are also successful, so it doesn't suggest one method is more effective than the other.
 

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Not quite. If you breakdance because you enjoy it, rather than focusing on it for BJJ. It'll probably still help you towards BJJ. Just not as much as it would if BJJ were your main focus. And not as much as training for BJJ.
How would we quantify that? I think we might just disagree on this.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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How would we quantify that? I think we might just disagree on this.
Probably. Unfortunately with BJJ I don't think there is a way to quantify that. The best way would be to look at a different sport that can be quantified, like 100m dash and come up with a similar comparison than analyze that. But even that will be difficult since most things that can be quantified like that have a much smaller skillset (not saying they're easier, just the amount of different skills needed is less).
 

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That really depends. I'm not sure how those competitions work, if 100% of it is transferable to cardio, then there won't be a difference. If it's not all transferable, then it is.
Once again, I really don't think skill development and such is so easily compartmentalized as you seem to suggest. Simply put, I don't accept as a given that there is a clear transfer of benefits from one activity to another. 100% transfer to cardio, for example, may not mean maximum benefit to skill, and conversely 50% transfer to cardio could result in maximum benefit to skill.
 
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