Curious about the differences in judo\jjj and bjj.

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Steve

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So I think that first part depends, and not sure if we can get a direct answer for that, beyond specific individuals. Overall, I think professional boxers are probably more competitive than most people, so they may be more likely to train for competitions, but at the same time I can see them view it as simply a tool, and not care about competing with it. So different boxers different answers.

As for the athlete thing-I don't really know what point you're making with that. The fact that some people can/do switch between them, doesn't mean it's the most effective route to do it. And with MMA and BJJ I think that might be an exception to the idea, considering just how similar they are-nearly 100% of BJJ can be transferred directly into MMA, so for one-direction there is nothing being lost. And then there are other people who aren't high-level BJJers (meaning they don't enter high-level BJJ comps) that are high level MMA fighters that are also successful, so it doesn't suggest one method is more effective than the other.
Unless a specific study is done, it's hard to say whether it's more or less efficient. I mean, if someone wants to be an elite level MMA fighter, is it more efficient for him or her to train in an MMA gym out of the gate, splitting time between grappling and striking, or to start with wrestling, then add BJJ, then add striking, and then synthesize the discrete skillsets? Is one clearly better than the other? Both methods produce elite level competitors.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Unless a specific study is done, it's hard to say whether it's more or less efficient. I mean, if someone wants to be an elite level MMA fighter, is it more efficient for him or her to train in an MMA gym out of the gate, splitting time between grappling and striking, or to start with wrestling, then add BJJ, then add striking, and then synthesize the discrete skillsets? Is one clearly better than the other? Both methods produce elite level competitors.
Yup. That's why I was saying the difference is negligible. And doesn't really have much of an effect on us amateurs.
 

Gerry Seymour

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I think it depends on the amount of hobby time we're talking about. For example, a guy with 10 hours a week may benefit from a singular focus. But 20 hours a week? Would 20 hours in BJJ yield better BJJ results than 10 hours of BJJ and 10 hours of breakdancing? I don't believe so, but the second guy would definitely be a better breakdancer.
I think thats a fair claim. Im not sure where the diminishing return is (and it probably varies by person, but Id bet most of the benefit past 10 hours is just physical/athletic development, so breakdancing would provide about as much as more BJJ.
 

Gerry Seymour

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That really depends. I'm not sure how those competitions work, if 100% of it is transferable to cardio, then there won't be a difference. If it's not all transferable, then it is.
I think this is a good example @Steve. In focusing for competition, theres going to be more stopping to work on tricks and technique, developing routines, rather than keeping the pace up for the fitness benefit.
 

Gerry Seymour

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How would we quantify that? I think we might just disagree on this.
I dont see a path to quantifying, either, but I think I can help clarify MTWs point. If you took up breakdancing specifically to improve your BJJ, youd likely choose to focus on movements and routines that you feel fit that purpose. If you do it for fun, youd likely learn it more broadly (including moves you dont see as beneficial to BJJ) and also spend more of the time on developing fun and/or impressive routines.
 

Steve

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Yup. That's why I was saying the difference is negligible. And doesn't really have much of an effect on us amateurs.
Hold on. I'm confused again. This is why I keep asking the same question over. What's your actual opinion here? Is it that doing things contiguously impedes skill development, or not? I mean, if you want to be good at MMA, is it better to focus your attention (as was suggested by several folks earlier in the thread) on one thing (e.g., boxing), get really at it then move onto the second thing (e.g., BJJ), get really good at that, then move onto the third thing (e.g., wrestling), get really good at that, and then put it all together? Or is it better to do all three things at the same time? I would say the latter.

Then the question becomes, if you do all three things at the same time, can you get really good at any one of those three things at the same time you're also getting really good at MMA? I think, 100% yes. We see it all the time.

Then the question become, can you get really good at all three things while training them all contiguously, and also get really good at MMA? And I think... I don't know. Maybe? It depends?
 

Steve

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I dont see a path to quantifying, either, but I think I can help clarify MTWs point. If you took up breakdancing specifically to improve your BJJ, youd likely choose to focus on movements and routines that you feel fit that purpose. If you do it for fun, youd likely learn it more broadly (including moves you dont see as beneficial to BJJ) and also spend more of the time on developing fun and/or impressive routines.
Why would you limit yourself like that, though? I don't understand why you guys think that doing one activity with the intended outcome being to realize a benefit in another activity means you have to half *** that second activity.

Two questions: why can't you do breakdancing for fun and also appreciate the benefits of breakdancing in BJJ? And, how does limiting your breakdancing activity to only moves that are beneficial to BJJ help your BJJ more than if you did those moves AND others?

Simply put, you're presuming a kind of relationship between doing half of breakdancing being more beneficial to BJJ than doing all of breakdancing that I question exists.
 

Steve

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I think this is a good example @Steve. In focusing for competition, theres going to be more stopping to work on tricks and technique, developing routines, rather than keeping the pace up for the fitness benefit.
What if, and I know this might be crazy, that doesn't actually matter? You presume that working on tricks and technique in jumping rope is negatively impacting your boxing training, but why is that necessarily so? I think it MAY, but that it's not a given. I also think it MAY have a tangential, net positive impact. How would this be materially different than doing interval training?

Point is, you're approaching this from a very narrow, focused position, with one very narrow, focused idea of how some activities can help and some cannot. I think that skill development is much more squishy than that.
 

drop bear

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Why would you limit yourself like that, though? I don't understand why you guys think that doing one activity with the intended outcome being to realize a benefit in another activity means you have to half *** that second activity.

Two questions: why can't you do breakdancing for fun and also appreciate the benefits of breakdancing in BJJ? And, how does limiting your breakdancing activity to only moves that are beneficial to BJJ help your BJJ more than if you did those moves AND others?

Simply put, you're presuming a kind of relationship between doing half of breakdancing being more beneficial to BJJ than doing all of breakdancing that I question exists.

Yeah which is that weird aspect of MMA where fighters will train BJJ in a gi.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Two questions: why can't you do breakdancing for fun and also appreciate the benefits of breakdancing in BJJ?
You could. Thatd be the second group: doing it for fun.

And, how does limiting your breakdancing activity to only moves that are beneficial to BJJ help your BJJ more than if you did those moves AND others?
This is back to the original concept of limited time. If you add more moves to work on in the same time, you spend less time on the group most beneficial. And as in my previous post, you likely spend time working on developing routines that look good, that being time taken from the more athletic pursuits most likely to benefit BJJ.
 

Gerry Seymour

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What if, and I know this might be crazy, that doesn't actually matter? You presume that working on tricks and technique in jumping rope is negatively impacting your boxing training, but why is that necessarily so? I think it MAY, but that it's not a given. I also think it MAY have a tangential, net positive impact. How would this be materially different than doing interval training?

Point is, you're approaching this from a very narrow, focused position, with one very narrow, focused idea of how some activities can help and some cannot. I think that skill development is much more squishy than that.
What Im saying is that 10 minutes spent planning out (not practicing) a series of jumprope tricks is less beneficial to boxing than exercising with the jumprope for 10 minutes.

Not really all that narrow. And I dont see why you see it as controversial.
 

Steve

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You could. Thatd be the second group: doing it for fun.
No. Both groups... at the same time. Doing it for fun AND doing it because it benefits another activity.
This is back to the original concept of limited time. If you add more moves to work on in the same time, you spend less time on the group most beneficial. And as in my previous post, you likely spend time working on developing routines that look good, that being time taken from the more athletic pursuits most likely to benefit BJJ.
Given reasonable amounts of time, I think this just doesn't bear out. in fact, I think half-assing the second activity is more likely (if anything) to inhibit any benefits you might see than otherwise.
 

drop bear

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What Im saying is that 10 minutes spent planning out (not practicing) a series of jumprope tricks is less beneficial to boxing than exercising with the jumprope for 10 minutes.

Not really all that narrow. And I dont see why you see it as controversial.

Yeah. But eventually you do those tricks while jump rope guy is still jumping rope.

The question becomes does that extra depth help you boxing?

I mean I have always been a fan of acro in kata simply because you have to develop more physicality to perform it.

So the more removed it becomes from the task, fighting. The better it performs for that task. Sort of.
 

Steve

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What Im saying is that 10 minutes spent planning out (not practicing) a series of jumprope tricks is less beneficial to boxing than exercising with the jumprope for 10 minutes.

Not really all that narrow. And I dont see why you see it as controversial.
What if those 10 minutes spent planning out your tricks leads you to a more intense (and AWESOME) routine? What if those 10 minutes were when you were sitting in the hot tub, relaxing and recovering from your rope jumping and BJJ classes that day? Or having a cup of coffee with your rope jumping friends?
 

Steve

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Yeah. But eventually you do those tricks while jump rope guy is still jumping rope.

The question becomes does that extra depth help you boxing?

I mean I have always been a fan of acro in kata simply because you have to develop more physicality to perform it.

So the more removed it becomes from the task, fighting. The better it performs for that task. Sort of.
Gets to that comment about parkour and basketball. I don't know whether it would help with basketball, but a lot of TKD guys do parkour and you see a lot of parkour tricks in TKD and XMA, as well. Seems to be pretty synergistic, even if jumping off a roof doesn't translate directly to a 1080 cyclone whirl kick (or whatever they're doing now).
 

drop bear

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So looking at boxing and wrestling. And this is mostly anecdotal.

Boxing you can't spar 100% safely all the time. Wrestling you can. So if you wanted to develop that moungrel in someone without giving them brain damage. You could make them wrestle untill they collapse.

Wrestling needs a strong neck. You get torn apart without one. A strong neck will stop you getting knocked out in boxing. But you can disguise the issue in boxing more easily.

Head movement in boxing can be a bit sloppy. Head movement in wrestling you can't.

By changing the focus of your training you change the priorities of what works. And automatically start developing things you otherwise wouldn't.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Yeah. But eventually you do those tricks while jump rope guy is still jumping rope.

The question becomes does that extra depth help you boxing?

I mean I have always been a fan of acro in kata simply because you have to develop more physicality to perform it.

So the more removed it becomes from the task, fighting. The better it performs for that task. Sort of.
agreed. My point is just the time taken away from beneficial training. The hard part is figuring how much that matters at any given point. If its 5 hours a week less spent in beneficial training out of 10, that pretty clearly matters. If its 30 minutes out of those 10 hours...maybe?
 

drop bear

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Gets to that comment about parkour and basketball. I don't know whether it would help with basketball, but a lot of TKD guys do parkour and you see a lot of parkour tricks in TKD and XMA, as well. Seems to be pretty synergistic, even if jumping off a roof doesn't translate directly to a 1080 cyclone whirl kick (or whatever they're doing now).

Or the old thing of using ballet for man sports.


Learning to fall properly in basketball is overlooked and you see a bit of collar bone snappage because of it. Because you don't need it untill you need it.
 

Gerry Seymour

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What if those 10 minutes spent planning out your tricks leads you to a more intense (and AWESOME) routine? What if those 10 minutes were when you were sitting in the hot tub, relaxing and recovering from your rope jumping and BJJ classes that day? Or having a cup of coffee with your rope jumping friends?
Youre changing the argument. It started as a comment about training time taken from a primary activity. If you take the time from elsewhere, you change the variables (like total training time). You seem determined to make this an argument of details rather than a discussion of concepts.
 

drop bear

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agreed. My point is just the time taken away from beneficial training. The hard part is figuring how much that matters at any given point. If its 5 hours a week less spent in beneficial training out of 10, that pretty clearly matters. If its 30 minutes out of those 10 hours...maybe?

If you are trying to work out your training that way rather than putting in extra time on development. Then you probably have bigger issues anyway.

That is the old. What do I teach in a two week self defence course? Conundrum.
 
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