Cross Choke from Mount (vid)

[Tony Dismukes]

Watch both videos, video number 1

Video number 2

No one is questioning the effectiveness of strikes to the liver. It’s a great target. We’re disputing the effectiveness of strikes from bottom of mount.

 

[Gweilo]

As opposed to downward elbows from mount?

Against a half decent fighter, he would have had one or both elbows attacked, Placing his arms on the floor will give him stability, but locking the elbows, that's asking for trouble, and the space left for his opponent to move their shoulders, I am confident, I could competently strike the liver, or quickly escape or reverse the mount.

 

[dunc]

I'm probably going to make myself unpopular here, but....
In my experience:

a) Grapplers tend to underestimate the effectiveness of non-sporting striking methods in grappling. This is because mostly their experience is based on MMA which has some limitations like gloves and disallowed targets

and

b) Non-grapplers tend to overestimate the effectiveness of non-sporting striking methods in grappling. This is because these kind of strikes really only buy you a little space and time against a skilled grappler, which is very helpful if you are also a competent grappler, but utterly useless (even counter productive) if you don't have the core skills to capitalise on this small opportunity

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Against a half decent fighter, he would have had one or both elbows attacked, Placing his arms on the floor will give him stability, but locking the elbows, that's asking for trouble, and the space left for his opponent to move their shoulders, I am confident, I could competently strike the liver, or quickly escape or reverse the mount.

That’s an interesting theory. Good news - it’s fairly easy to test. Just find a BJJ school and ask a BJJ black belt to put you in that position and see whether you are able to effectively strike or quickly escape the mount. (Discuss the striking beforehand or you may be in for some unfortunate consequences.)

I have a suspicion, based on thousands of hours of actual sparring from that position, that your confidence is misplaced. But don’t take my word for it. Go and find out for yourself.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm probably going to make myself unpopular here, but....
In my experience:

a) Grapplers tend to underestimate the effectiveness of non-sporting striking methods in grappling. This is because mostly their experience is based on MMA which has some limitations like gloves and disallowed targets

and

b) Non-grapplers tend to overestimate the effectiveness of non-sporting striking methods in grappling. This is because these kind of strikes really only buy you a little space and time against a skilled grappler, which is very helpful if you are also a competent grappler, but utterly useless (even counter productive) if you don't have the core skills to capitalise on this small opportunity

True, but in this case Gweilo is talking about regular “sporting” striking methods that are totally legal in MMA and normal sparring. The ideas he’s proposing have been thoroughly tested and have not fared well.

 

[dunc]

True, but in this case Gweilo is talking about regular “sporting” striking methods that are totally legal in MMA and normal sparring. The ideas he’s proposing have been thoroughly tested and have not fared well.

Yes I agree
& @Gweilo - it really is easy to test, you just need someone who's got a big of experience at maintaining the mount

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm probably going to make myself unpopular here, but....
In my experience:

a) Grapplers tend to underestimate the effectiveness of non-sporting striking methods in grappling. This is because mostly their experience is based on MMA which has some limitations like gloves and disallowed targets

and

b) Non-grapplers tend to overestimate the effectiveness of non-sporting striking methods in grappling. This is because these kind of strikes really only buy you a little space and time against a skilled grappler, which is very helpful if you are also a competent grappler, but utterly useless (even counter productive) if you don't have the core skills to capitalise on this small opportunity

Even grapplers sometimes make that second error, when discussing defenses against positions they don't practice. I remember being taught some "defenses" from mount involving strikes that I doubt would even work in the dojo if you tried to actually use them - just not enough leverage to make them count.

 

[drop bear]

I'm probably going to make myself unpopular here, but....
In my experience:

a) Grapplers tend to underestimate the effectiveness of non-sporting striking methods in grappling. This is because mostly their experience is based on MMA which has some limitations like gloves and disallowed targets

and

b) Non-grapplers tend to overestimate the effectiveness of non-sporting striking methods in grappling. This is because these kind of strikes really only buy you a little space and time against a skilled grappler, which is very helpful if you are also a competent grappler, but utterly useless (even counter productive) if you don't have the core skills to capitalise on this small opportunity

You can Phoenix fist the ribs from underneath in MMA though. There is no restrictions on hand shape or striking method unless you are eyegouging.

 

[drop bear]

Against a half decent fighter, he would have had one or both elbows attacked, Placing his arms on the floor will give him stability, but locking the elbows, that's asking for trouble, and the space left for his opponent to move their shoulders, I am confident, I could competently strike the liver, or quickly escape or reverse the mount.

Yeah. But you just 12 to 6 elbow from there.

You bring both hands out to stabilize and then just bring the elbow in to the head.

That star fish is about the least likely time to reverse the mount.

 

[drop bear]

Thank you. I am planning on making more videos. Is there any technique or position you think people would want to see done in a similar style?

Yeah. Do defense against liver punches from the bottom.

 

[dunc]

You can Phoenix fist the ribs from underneath in MMA though. There is no restrictions on hand shape or striking method unless you are eyegouging.

I don't know what a phoenix fist is so can't really comment
But I can say from direct experience that there are strikes from inferior positions that aren't trained/seen in MMA that do create some space & opportunity without compromising your grappling defences

There does seem to be a bit of a mental barrier to these options in the training methods, but I'm also open to the possibility of their being more successful because they are unfamiliar

 

[Ybot]

Just a quick question about this choke hold, the camera angle does not show the side of your opponents hand that tapped, what is protecting your left side ribs, whilst you are applying the choke, from your opponents right fist, I could not see if you trapped the arm, until the choke was on, or your opponents right arm is free throughout the technique.

@Headhunter Are you saying Jiu jitsu folk don't protect thre liver?

IMHO, when the tap comes, the tap is to the rear of the ribs, I believe this is enough space to attack the liver or lower ribs.

If it was the left hand side, I would agree, but not the right hand side, I would rather take a full on smack to the solar plex, rather than a good strike to the liver, a knuckle strike or a phoenix eye punch to the liver can be delivered, from a very short distance, even a palm strike to the liver is crippling, and with a tap to the rear of the ribs, leaves the kidneys open to a hammer fist.all hurt, and all are game enders, all can be acheived from short distance.

I think you misunderstand the context of this choke. I really meant this as a sporting Jiu-Jitsu technique. We are both wearing gis (which is more ideal for the application of this choke, though it can be modified for street clothes).

That said, even in a street fight I'm not particularly concerned. There is little chance that from the position under my mount that my opponent would be able to generate enough power to do any serious damage. And should, by chance, he was able to hurt me from there, I think you misunderstand what a terrible idea it would be to even try to hurt me from bottom mount. If this were a street fight yours have to understand that I'm being exceptionally generous by attaching the choke at all. If I was hit with a liver shot hard enough to hurt me and I got mad enough, I'm in an exceptionally strong position to rearrange my opponents face permenantly with my forearm and elbow, and I have both gravity and hip rotation in my side for creating power, two things the guy on the bottom never had.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Just adding to Ybot’s explanation (which I totally agree with)...

In the context of an actual fight, the classic BJJ doctrine would be to achieve the mount, inflict damage with strikes from top mount first, and then go for the choke or armlock.

 

[Buka]

Heh, heh, heh. God, I love this.

 

[Danny T]

Just adding to Ybot’s explanation (which I totally agree with)...

In the context of an actual fight, the classic BJJ doctrine would be to achieve the mount, inflict damage with strikes from top mount first, and then go for the choke or armlock.

Yeap...so many think BJJ has no striking. And in competition only training that may well be so and there are a lot of competition only schools out there. Just as in Judo most think there is no striking in Judo. Judo has it however, it is not allowed in competition.