Coronavirus/Covid 19
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dvcochran
Grandmaster
Man oh man do I agree.
Every person needs to try to go to a hospital/medical facility in Canada just once to understand how messed up things are.
I had it happen and it was one of the craziest things I have ever went through.
In lieu of the whole story: because I did not have the official Canadian 'medical credit card' they did not know how to process me, even though they were told repeatedly I would pay with cash if necessary. Tried my credit card and a credit card by the plant GM who lived in Mississauga. Nothing worked. I had lost the end of my right thumb in a machine malfunction. I sat in the ER waiting room until I passed out from blood loss and probably shock (even though I was mostly pissed off).
Their system is so screwed up I could not even receive triage to stem the blood loss.
Hard pass on socialism.
Actually it's not socialism. One bad experience , which frankly you can have absolutely anywhere in the world, doesn't mean a countries systems is wrong or doesn't work. There is a top private hospital here in the UK, very expensive, very exclusive where several people reported bad experiences. I have many Canadian friends who say their system works, it's not perfect of course no ones is, but it works and people don't die because they can't afford treatment.
Blaming 'socialism' for the fact that one hospital is rubbish and you not being Canadian so not experienced in their medical health care system is extreme. You need to research properly the healthcare system in a non partisan way rather than base it on one visit to one hospital in one place. Much of what is written about other countries healthcare systems is written by people who either have an axe to grind ie to prove it's the best or the worst.
Ranked in order of quality the UK is 18th, Canada 30th and the USA 38th.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/best-healthcare-in-the-world/
jobo
Grandmaster
the general ethos of social health care, is that the better off pay more to allow the treatment of the less well off an an equal basis
this equality is the key feature
the nature of this equality is if you turn up offering to pay cash to get to the front of the queue , then your told to wait your turn, your no more entitled to not bleed to death or retain all your digits than anyone else of a lesser income, particularly as the other people in the queue had in fact contribute to the system (and would understandably get quite cross if being a rich american was given more of a life value than theirs), or at least had the foresight to turn up with the correct documentation, i wouldn't dream of going abroad let alone america with out the correct docs
as you didnt infact bleed to death one assumes at some point you did reach the front of the queue ?
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Of course it is not free, I don’t think anyone was claiming it is. Everything needs to get paid for somehow. But there are better ways to spread the costs and make access more available for everyone.
For one thing, making health insurance into a benefit tied to employment is ridiculously stupid. When you become unemployed and lose that benefit along with your paycheck, you become much more vulnerable. You cannot pay insurance premiums or doctor fees without your paycheck. We need to separate healthcare from employment and make it readily available for everyone, including those who are unemployed and those who work low-wage and/or part-time jobs that often do not offer benefits.
Speaking of premiums, how is that not simply another word for “tax”? Well, there are a couple of ways. First, premiums go to insurance companies who have no intention of spending that money on your healthcare. They have an incentive to spend as little as possible in order to maximize corporate profits on top of big executive salaries and other payroll and operating costs.
A government run program funded through taxes would of course have payroll and operating costs, but would otherwise not have the corporate profits as a priority. The purpose of those taxes is much more to spend on your (and everyone else’s) actual healthcare. So the money gets used for what it is intended. If the entire population is part of that program, the overall tax per person to fund it ought to be reduced. I would much rather spend my money on such a tax than on insurance premiums to a private insurance provider. And in this way, if you become unemployed for a time, you still get medical access. When you earn money, you pay the tax. When you are unemployed, you don’t, but you can still see your doctor because as a nation, we all take care of each other.
Some things are best provided by the government because they require wide use by the general population, and they are large and expensive endeavors that individuals are unable to pay for by themselves. Examples are the police and fire departments, the military, roads and highways, libraries, the postal service. I put medical into that category as well.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I have dealt with insurance companies and I do realize they are in the business of making money, not helping those in their system, and I do not disagree your post, but read the linked article, it is not all sunshine and rainbows, it does have its drawbacks as well as its advantages, it is just a matter of what is more important to the individual.
Just for reference, last year I paid a bit over $40,000 in medical expenses. That is on top of insurance premiums. That figure includes co-pays, deductibles, and all the various bits and pieces of treatment that the insurance company has decided they won't pay for. My current chemo regimen costs about $12,000 per month just for the drugs, and while insurance covers most of it, there is always a significant outlay on my part. There is a particular PET scan that provides the best imaging for gastric Neuro Endocrine Tumors that I need yearly. It's FDA approved, and accepted as the best way to imagine this cancer. But my insurance (and most, other than Medicare) say that they consider it experimental and won't pay for it. It costs about $3500. The (less useful) imaging the insurance will pay for costs about $1000. I'd love to pay only $10K per year.
My oncologists have been offering to put through disability paperwork for 10 years. Were I to take that and go on Medicare, my out of pocket would drop to zero. But my job matters to me, and I think it matters to our community as well. So because I insist on being a productive citizen, I spend a freaking fortune on uncovered medical bills.
In the US, fully 2/3 of all personal bankruptcies are linked to medical bills. The US is the only 1st World nation in which people routinely go bankrupt paying for needed medical care.
Yes, we can do better. We could hardly do worse.
However, we're now getting into political discussion, so I'm out of this conversation.
Do you go to your MA class? How do you keep that 2 meters distance away from people?
I haven't been to Canada in about 20 years. It's a long way from Arizona, ya know. But the last time I was there, we were visiting some friends in Toronto and my wife cut her hand bad. So she went to whatever the Canadian equivalent of an "urgent care clinic" is called. She was examined and treated in a reasonable amount of time and, even though she told them she was a US citizen, they charged her ...nothing.
Honestly, she said the experience was equal to or better than she would have expected at the urgent care center we used at home, and even with pretty expensive insurance, that service comes with a hefty co-pay.
Now maybe her good experience on that one occasion, isn't the norm. Regardless, it saved our vacation. Yay Canada!
jobo
Grandmaster
just read a story on the ever cheerful bbc, that the consequences in America could out do those in Europe, because of non insured/ under insured people not being tested let alone treated if they are the % who get it bad and the lack of sick pay for much the same population means they either work or starve , no matter if they spread it, all of a sudden social health care looks like good value?
Long arns?
Oh be quiet, Jobo. Things are bad enough without you pointing out the obvious.
My son is a student at Digipen in Seattle. He is also doing an internship at Tesla. In response to the outbreak, Digipen has gone to online classes, but he still has to show up to work at his internship. At least one person that he knows of in the same building has tested positive for Covid 19.
Another thought. Seattle has a huge homeless population. Will they be tested and provided with treatment? Seems kinda tough to pull off if they don't even have shelter.
And then, considering the news about Tom Hanks testing positive, maybe it's time to do a romantic movie remake, this time relevantly titled: Homeless in Seattle: Love is Contagious.
Another thought. Seattle has a huge homeless population. Will they be tested and provided with treatment? Seems kinda tough to pull off if they don't even have shelter.
And then, considering the news about Tom Hanks testing positive, maybe it's time to do a romantic movie remake, this time relevantly titled: Homeless in Seattle: Love is Contagious.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
And we can figure out a better way.
jobo
Grandmaster
just read on the bbc, that trump has announced a 50 blillion relief fund, that should buy them a few tents,
Before we all get slapped on the wrist for being political I want to add that this issue is political and we can't avoid it. Usually who is in charge of a country or how they run their health services is just something we talk about in conversation BUT now how everyone deals with the healthcare in their country is of vital interest to us all. The virus has no borders, it goes from country to country as easily as we do now so how the US deals with healthcare is of importance, how Europe does is important. If one country has people who cannot afford to go to a doctor or a hospital (or can't afford to self isolate) it helps spread the virus among the population who in turn spread it further which obviously ( of course) is why it's now a pandemic.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
May wanted to look at post #313 before you posted but...so be it
Yes I know, I am sorry I worded it the way I did, and I am starting to remember why I stopped posting....I never intended to say it was expensive, I never intended to say our system was better or worse. I was "SIMPLY" pointing out it is not free as many believe and it has it draw backs. It is not perfect and neither is ours. And yes, we all have medical expenses that would be really hard to handle if not nye impossible without insurance due to cost, Heck the thousands I would have had to pay out in dental cost alone last year wold have drained me if it were not for my insurance. I do not need a list from anyone about how much they spent or how much it cost, but thanks for the info, but I grew up here, been dealing with it for years and even spent some time in my early 30s unemployed trying to pay for my own insurance out of pocket. And if it is political it is because you made it so. I posted a link with pros and cons that apparently you ignored and jumped on the price. Nothing in my original post was an attack on the Canadian system or a defense of ours.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I am glad you had a better experience.I haven't been to Canada in about 20 years. It's a long way from Arizona, ya know. But the last time I was there, we were visiting some friends in Toronto and my wife cut her hand bad. So she went to whatever the Canadian equivalent of an "urgent care clinic" is called. She was examined and treated in a reasonable amount of time and, even though she told them she was a US citizen, they charged her ...nothing.
Honestly, she said the experience was equal to or better than she would have expected at the urgent care center we used at home, and even with pretty expensive insurance, that service comes with a hefty co-pay.
Now maybe her good experience on that one occasion, isn't the norm. Regardless, it saved our vacation. Yay Canada!
I do remember the GM at the facility I was working at saying the hold up on the front end was unusual.
A little more of the story; Right before I passed out I remember this gentleman wearing a white coat and having a very strong British accent came in to the waiting area. He was very loud and went from person to person speaking, never really stopping. When I got to a room, this same man came in, twice, before a doctor ever came in to see me. He just rambled, mostly incoherently, and then moseyed back out. When the doctor came in this is exactly what he said: Mr. Cochran I understand you are from the United States. We can either cut your finger off at the lower joint or bandage it up. Naturally I said bandage it up.
The injury occurred on an automated grinding machine and essentially ground the end of my thumb off to the first knuckle. It was very, very dirty. The doctor told me it would have to be thoroughly cleaned which made sense. A nurse came in and said 'hold on'. A said aren't you going to numb it up first? She said, nope. So imagine trying to set still while a nurse used betadine sponges to clean the end of your missing thumb. After several minutes of her scrubbing and me squirming the doctor came in and said it was not clean enough. I was rather vocal but sat thorough another scrubbing.
The doctor came in, never said a word, put a good wrap on the wound and walked out. Never said a word.
JR 137
Grandmaster
Several school districts in my area have closed. More will follow suit sooner than later, like within the next 24 hours. Closed for a minimum of next week. I’m quite sure it’ll go longer than that.
According to my wife who teaches at a public school, there was a teleconference with superintendents from around the area and the decision was a group decision. My daughters’ school hasn’t announced anything yet, but my wife’s has. I can foresee my daughters’ school staying open with literally every district that borders it closing. If not for anything else, it’ll close due to public pressure.
But who’s supposed to watch the kids? Now you’re going to lose a big part of the workforce because someone needs to watch the kids. Luckily my wife’s a teacher and is home virtually whenever my kids are.
According to my wife who teaches at a public school, there was a teleconference with superintendents from around the area and the decision was a group decision. My daughters’ school hasn’t announced anything yet, but my wife’s has. I can foresee my daughters’ school staying open with literally every district that borders it closing. If not for anything else, it’ll close due to public pressure.
But who’s supposed to watch the kids? Now you’re going to lose a big part of the workforce because someone needs to watch the kids. Luckily my wife’s a teacher and is home virtually whenever my kids are.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
That is hugely over stated media hype. Insurance availability is not nearly as bad as it is made out to be. More the spin doctors hard at work. It doesn't take a genius to set down and figure out how much more they would pay in added taxes for social healthcare.
We do have a Lot of people wanting something for nothing however.
As far as the quality of healthcare, I will still take the US healthcare over anywhere else.
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