Contact Reflexes

[grifter]

I was wondering to what extent, if any, other disciplines of martial arts teach the concept of "contact reflexes" or sensitivity training as I learned it. One of my major draws to the Ving Tsun system was the idea of reflexive actions; or training the body to react without the need for conscious thought.

While I'm quite sure other martial arts must incoporate sensitivity training, I am curious as to whether it is taught as a fundamental concept, or if it is merely knowledge gained through experience.

Another question I present to practioners of Ving Tsun: Does conditioning the hands, arms, shins and feet reduce the effectiveness of sensitivity. For example, would a martial artist who consistently conditioned their hands with gravel or wood lose nerve sensitivity in that part of the body to the detriment of their ability to react to opponents movements?

--Grifter

 

[ed-swckf]

I was wondering to what extent, if any, other disciplines of martial arts teach the concept of "contact reflexes" or sensitivity training as I learned it. One of my major draws to the Ving Tsun system was the idea of reflexive actions; or training the body to react without the need for conscious thought.

While I'm quite sure other martial arts must incoporate sensitivity training, I am curious as to whether it is taught as a fundamental concept, or if it is merely knowledge gained through experience.

Another question I present to practioners of Ving Tsun: Does conditioning the hands, arms, shins and feet reduce the effectiveness of sensitivity. For example, would a martial artist who consistently conditioned their hands with gravel or wood lose nerve sensitivity in that part of the body to the detriment of their ability to react to opponents movements?

--Grifter

If you took contitioning to a point that you could no longer sense touch then sure it would effect you, however conditioning sensibly isn't going to come very close to that kind of situation. Personally i don't just feel with nerve endings, i probe for pressure in a subtle way using elbow pressence, shoulder pressence and all the way down to the knees and feet and i probe all the way to there feet with the hope of going unoticed in doing so.

As for other arts i would suggest looking into the pushing hands of tai chi, you will find a lot of similar elements that carry through most martial arts and i don't see why this element in parts wouldn't be incorperated in others to some degree. I tend to see simularities in other arts that i can relate to wing chun but i don't really look for them. As for the way its taught you are better of asking people who study those othr arts.

 

[bart]

Hey There,

I've experienced contact reflex training in Eskrima as well although it is often incorporated into "flow" training. I agree with looking at tai chi push hands. Contact reflexes are good, but they do allow you to be programmed by an experienced person. They measure your skills and then bait you into a spot that works best for them. It's important to have contact reflexes but it is also important to transcend them.

As for conditioning, in my experience it isn't that I no longer sense, but rather that pain is no longer as much of a deterrent to hitting and hitting hard as it was prior to my conditioning. I can still feel everything, but the pain simply doesn't register like it used to in the manner of an alert. I would liken it to the sideache when running. At first it might make you double up. But with time you get used to it. As you progress it still shows up, but it doesn't stop you from running. You know it's there and it's now simply a measure of how much juice you've got left before you overdo it.

IMHO conditioning to the point of numbness or disfigurement is overdoing it in a detrimental way. If you are numb, you will be by definition less sensitive and it will hurt your game. But much worse is that it will cause you to push yourself beyond the limits of your body's structural capability and that is more dangerous to you than your prospective opponent(s) may be.

 

[grifter]

Contact reflexes are good, but they do allow you to be programmed by an experienced person. They measure your skills and then bait you into a spot that works best for them.

That's an interesting point. I see what you mean, however I would argue that this situation would probably only occur in any significance during sparring. I would think in true combat, sensitivity and reactionary fighting would be a huge asset.

 

[bart]

Hey There,

That's an interesting point. I see what you mean, however I would argue that this situation would probably only occur in any significance during sparring. I would think in true combat, sensitivity and reactionary fighting would be a huge asset.

I agree that in actual fighting they are most useful. And most assuredly you'll encounter that type of action in sparring more often than in an attack. One of the assumptions in Wing Chun however is that you'll be facing a skilled opponent that you shouldn't underestimate. If someone knows how to push your buttons, they will, and they'll use it against you. Also, by transcend, I don't mean discard or don't develop them, but rather recognize them as a piece of something larger.

 

[7starmantis]

I think all CMA focus on sensitivity to some point. Its a principles that defines CMA. Its probably one of our biggest focuses in mantis as well.

7sm

 

[grifter]

One of the assumptions in Wing Chun however is that you'll be facing a skilled opponent that you shouldn't underestimate.

...Also, by transcend, I don't mean discard or don't develop them, but rather recognize them as a piece of something larger.

Very true. You are wise, my friend.

 

[bcbernam777]

From what i can remember in my limited time in other MA's there is a small amount of drills that would be classified as sensativity (though I am not entirely shure that sensitivity was the main goals of the excercise), most of the excersises where actually focused more on conditioning than sensitivity. I believe some of the internal arts (e.g. Tai Chi Chuan etc) do employ some type of sensitivity training, and I also believe that some of that training does share some similarities with WC Chi Sau.

As for conditioning, the sensitivty to the opponant that you should feel is not just in the arms, eventually you get to the point where you can feel that sensitivity down to your stance so that you can effectivly let your stance tell you the story of what is going on. so in that sense the sensitivity runs deeper than the nerve endings on your arms. But i would suggest that conditioning should follow proper appreciation of sensitvity through many hours, days, weeks, months in Chi Sau

 

[arnisador]

I agree that there's some in FMA--probably, in any art--but that Wing Chun is the only art I know that makes it such an important and explicit part of their training.

 

[7starmantis]

I agree that there's some in FMA--probably, in any art--but that Wing Chun is the only art I know that makes it such an important and explicit part of their training.

I can't speak for all mantis systems, but in 7* its probably one of the most important aspects of our training and fighting. In fact, mantis has its own chi sau, many just call it chi sau, but its more correctly called Jeem lim sau. We do drills to learn following, yielding, "feel", etc. In fact, beginners start out hand to hand and one follows the other one around the entire room. Then we train hand to hand, forearem, elbow, shoulder, chest, back, hip, thigh, etc...

7sm

 

[arnisador]

Hmmm, I don't think I knew that Mantis has its own version of Chi Sao!

I read contact reflexes as the emphasis on striking as soon as you feel contact, which is related to but not the same as sensitivity. The quick reaction of a Wing Chun person when their defense is breached is different from what I see in many other arts.