"You react how you train"

[FearlessFreep]

This subject came up a little in another thread but I thought it worth talking about as an issue in it's own right.

It's often talked about in at the intersection of Martial Arts and Sports that "you fight how you train". This is often used as an indictment against martial-sports like point-sparring (no full contact), wtf sparring (kicking only, hands down), and even MMA and others to describe that the rules in place it martial-sports for safety purposes invalidate the sport/art as a means of training for self-defense.

I think that is true, to a point, but I wonder where it starts and where it ends. I think it's true that some of your automatic reactions will .... automatic. Without thought or intention, our body will react as it has thousands of times before.

However I can't help but think that on some strategic or tactical level, your thoughts and reactions will be a little more controlled or conscious than that.

For example (and maybe a silly example). Assuming you are fighting a professional football player, do you think he would drop into a three point stance before trying to tackle you? Would an offensive linesmen refuse to grab you because all of his training teaches him not to hold? Would a baseball player holding a bat in a fight wait for your head to be a little outside so he can extend his arms to to to drive your head into right-center field?

Yes, I think the baseball player will have far better mechanics than the average person in swinging a bat against your head, as well as the football player have better body mechanics, etc..as well as good strength and conditioning. But I also think there is a point where you are not just reacting on training where thought and intention and desire to survive will also take over.

At some point, you are going to know you are not sparring and you are not going to react like you are sparring...but also at some point your physical mechanics are going to reflect your sparring training.

Where is that point?

 

[FearlessFreep]

I'll give an example... it's often talked about how WTF sparring encourages fighters to drop their hands. Whch is a detriment when in an open fight.

However, this technique is possible simply because WTF sparring occurs at a distance that would not allow a punch to the head so it's *relatively* safer to have your hands down.

Now, once the encounter is engaged, if the other person is trying to punch you, then he will (attempt to) move into that range. Now that the range is such that you are outside of the envelope for your sparing training, are you really going to still react as if you are sparring and drop your hands? Or is the instinct of protecting your face/head (or the knowledge that such action would be advised) break you from your sparring reactions?

Note: I don't have the answer, it's not a rhetorical question, I'm honestly serious about questioning where these boundaries of reaction lay

 

[granfire]

Hm, I think adrenalin and instincts kick in.

I have not, nor do I hope I ever will be, in the situation where I needed to find out. However. like 'wax on-wax off' you have trained to achieve a certain amount of muscle memory that is no longer controlled by the concious part of your brain.

Hard to explain...

 

[Deaf Smith]

Go talk to the USMC or the Rangers about 'you fight as you train'. They are big believers in this. Their belief is based on a real lot of fighting. A belief paid in blood and analysed quite a bit. They are no fools.

You fight as you train for the simple reason it's all your body knows (presuming it's good training and very through.) The habits are ingrained.

It works like this:

1. No training. Expect nothing. Just nothing. No self confidence.

2. Little training. Expect nothing, hope to be lucky. Little self confidence.

3. Casual training. Expect some of the most basic defense techniques to be tried (I didn't say work, just attempted.) Might even succeed.

4. Steady training. Expect the basics to be tried and some of the techniques to work. Fair self confidence.

5. Rigorous training. Expect some advanced techniques to be tried and the basics all work. Strong self confidence!

6. Long term rigorous training. Actually expect some of the advanced techniques to work! Lots of self confidence.

Deaf

 

[matt.m]

OMG! This guy his the nail on the head. I have been on both sides and you guys that have been on the board for the last few years know this. Look: I went to Haiti, participated in the Trap Mission that saved Scott O'Grady when he was shot down, pulled people out of the Atlantic after the accident at Operation Purple Star, the list goes on.

I will say that being a member of the All Marine Judo and Wrestling teams I still trained like I fought, I just dumbed it down so to speak. Judo and Hapkido saved my life on a daily basis in Haiti and Albania.

My motto was, "If I loose I am dead." That was it period end of story. I have 70 confirmed kills from combat on 4 continents and 2 islands. 52 of those because of rules of engagement were from hand to hand combat. The Shanai and K-bar were my best friends. That and knowing the fine line between courage and stupid. Yes I am wearing to titanium knee braces, walk with a cane. I also have a Traumatic Brain Injury and P.T.S.D. but who cares, "I hate whiners." Bad things happen, and "Too Much Love Will Kill You." However, I regret nothing. Also, if I had the thought of I don't fight like I train then two things would be true.
1. I would be dead
2. I would'nt be a multiple title champion in Judo and Greco Wrestling. Hapkido cane and Shaini Scottish Bastard Sword and K-Bar training would have been for naught. Damn, I even loved using a 3 and a half dowl rod for hapkido cane and extra throwing techniques.

This man speaks the truth and God bless him for it.

Go talk to the USMC or the Rangers about 'you fight as you train'. They are big believers in this. Their belief is based on a real lot of fighting. A belief paid in blood and analysed quite a bit. They are no fools.

You fight as you train for the simple reason it's all your body knows (presuming it's good training and very through.) The habits are ingrained.

It works like this:

1. No training. Expect nothing. Just nothing. No self confidence.

2. Little training. Expect nothing, hope to be lucky. Little self confidence.

3. Casual training. Expect some of the most basic defense techniques to be tried (I didn't say work, just attempted.) Might even succeed.

4. Steady training. Expect the basics to be tried and some of the techniques to work. Fair self confidence.

5. Rigorous training. Expect some advanced techniques to be tried and the basics all work. Strong self confidence!

6. Long term rigorous training. Actually expect some of the advanced techniques to work! Lots of self confidence.

Deaf

 

[granfire]

True. If I know I will be in combat I'd better be prepared.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Matt and Deaf have said enough to give folks the "reality" of training. I will only offer one additional point of contention and that is...........when the "you know what, hits the fan" it hits it very quickly. You may have the benefit of a couple of seconds, if verbal threats are being offered, but you damn sure better be able to react and fast when it comes at you. You fight as you train holds true. I'll offer a story (true) from a student a few years ago. Come into the dojang on a monday with a missing tooth and a black eye. I asked, what happened, where you in an accident? The answer was "no", I was in a fight. I said OK, just what happened? Well we were playing pool and by accident I bumped into this guy when he was shooting. I said I was sorry, but that wasen't good enough. He started to mouth off and threw his stick down and I did the same. He lunged at me and I attempted to front snap kick him, but he was to close to fast and he was able to punch me in the mouth. I was able to get up and then had enough room to put some moves on him and was able to kick him and he went down. I asked him, "what was your mindset at the time"? He was a little confused at the question, so I asked, what were you thinking about when you statrted to fight?. He said " I got into my sparring stance and............I stoped him right there. Your sparring stance with your hands low? Of course he said, that's how we were taught to spar. I then asked him, did you learn anything from this? His answer was, you bet. There's a big difference between sparring and a real fight and I guess I was lucky enough to not get that hurt and be able to realize the difference. He then said, you where right about everytime you said, "you fight like you train" and I guess I'm proof of it now. For the what it's worth section, he was a state champ in his division for sparring, so we can see just how far that honor carries folks.

 

[dancingalone]

At some point, you are going to know you are not sparring and you are not going to react like you are sparring...but also at some point your physical mechanics are going to reflect your sparring training.

Where is that point?

This is an old thread but one worth revisiting. Looking at it from the sparring perspective, I don't believe the typical sparring drills are too meaningful in developing self-defense capability. They're for building endurance, speed, and understanding of distance and targeting.

I like spontaneous bull-in-the-ring drills where one student is in the middle of a circle and he's randomly attacked by one of the other students. Depending on the defender's experience level, the type and volume of attacks by his attacker will vary. Someone seasoned might see a flurry of punches from his attacker along with a tackle at the end. The defender must avoid being hit and then counter. The premium I am looking for as a teacher is how precise and efficient he is and whether his response would have really worked or not.

I really like this drill since there is no hiding at all. You must be spontaneous and the response must be immediate.

 

[StudentCarl]

What transfers first for me is "Get off the 'X'." From WTF sparring to ECQC with contact weapons and firearms force-on-force, all of the training I've been through puts a high value on movement as a fundamental of your defense and transition to effective attack.

The last (poorly handled by the student) multiple-opponent drill I saw burned this lesson into a young black belt as he nearly got KO'd and stomped before the sabumnim called time.

Carl

 

[Kingtkd]

I think this is false and here is my reasoning..
For yall who have saw my vids
my studio is new and the sparring
isnt really that competitive.
I sparr old ladies every sparring class
and go super soft to not hurt them.
and this has been like that ever since ive been there..
i sparr instructor and master every so often but not enough
that being said...

i spar old ladies all weeklong
watch my videos in the other posts
and then accurately tell me this statement is true..

 

[terryl965]

King there is a big difference between sparring with rules and self defense without. I mean just because you have won a few tournament against really bad players does not make you a self defense guro. Please wait until you reach the bigtime players and win before trying to eqaute the two as the same.

 

[Kingtkd]

King thier is a big difference between sparring with rules and self defense without, I mean just because you have won a few tournament against really bad players does not make you a self defense guro. Please wait until you reach the bigtime players and win before trying to eqaute the two as the same.

Ok will do

I love hearing this stuff this is wut fuels me to OWN harder..
Someone tell me somthing negative so i can go run around the rosebowl
fresh outta a 2 and half hour olympic style drilling class please!
and damn near 24 hours of helping a friend move his whole house!

Once again im am not arrogant i just say arrogant things because this is the internet and who cares. can say them at the studio cause then i wouldnt be assit instructor anymore.

 

[terryl965]

Ok will do

I love hearing this stuff this is wut fuels me to OWN harder..
Someone tell me somthing negative so i can go run around the rosebowl
fresh outta a 2 and half hour olympic style drilling class please!
and damn near 24 hours of helping a friend move his whole house!

Once again im am not arrogant i just say arrogant things because this is the internet and who cares. can say them at the studio cause then i wouldnt be assit instructor anymore.

WOW you are an in asst. instructor, I care what people say because anybody that needs to blow thier own horn this much is differently bad for the sport of TKD. You think 2.5 hours classes are long, you are a rookie, all Olympic TKD players trying to get to the Olympics or a National team trains rwice that mich everyday.

 

[Sukerkin]

Once again im am not arrogant i just say arrogant things because this is the internet and who cares.

Leaving aside everything else bar this, I'd just like to remind all participants, before things begin to grow out of hand, that this may be the Internet but the Moderating team here certainly does care.

A more gentle approach will get your words and opinions listened to far more readily than a bellicose one. There is no need for a topic to explode if people bear that in mind.

 

[jks9199]

Once again im am not arrogant i just say arrogant things because this is the internet and who cares. can say them at the studio cause then i wouldnt be assit instructor anymore.

And were your instructor to be sitting here reading these posts, and looking at your videos and comments... would you still be an assistant instructor? What would you say if a newer student that you were teaching started talking like you're posting?

You represent both yourself and your school every time you post, every tournament you go to, and even every time you meet someone. Are you presenting an image you and your instructor would be proud of?

 

[jda]

We train for sparring and real world fighting/self defense. We also teach our students to keep their hands up when sparring. Always have. We do a lot of body contact kicking and hitting. We believe that if you practice missing, when it counts, you'll miss. There's no reason that you can't have both.
Jim

 

[Kingtkd]

And were your instructor to be sitting here reading these posts, and looking at your videos and comments... would you still be an assistant instructor? What would you say if a newer student that you were teaching started talking like you're posting?

You represent both yourself and your school every time you post, every tournament you go to, and even every time you meet someone. Are you presenting an image you and your instructor would be proud of?

Your absolutely right and that is a very important point you just made
i do represent my school every time i say something or post so from that being said im done with the arrogant comments and the posts cause obviously nobody has a sense of humor..

To the instructor comment.. I wouldn't care..

o but seriously that was a really good point and
a learning xp cause i actually just became asst instructor
upon completion of my poom belt ceremony.
thank you for the much need reality check..

 

[Archtkd]

Ok will do

I love hearing this stuff this is wut fuels me to OWN harder..
Someone tell me somthing negative so i can go run around the rosebowl
fresh outta a 2 and half hour olympic style drilling class please!
and damn near 24 hours of helping a friend move his whole house!

Once again im am not arrogant i just say arrogant things because this is the internet and who cares. can say them at the studio cause then i wouldnt be assit instructor anymore.

Assistant instructor? Exactly what does that mean and how do you become one at your dojang? Do you teach, and if so who are your students? Do you get paid to teach? What excactly do you teach?

Maybe I'm missing something because your language, tone and general attitude make me wonder. Also, to say you are not arrogant but then admit you say arrogant things in a public Internet forum sounds strange. In that vein and in the spirit of this thread how does posting arrogant and irrelevant things help us have a better understanding of reacting in self defense?

We seek more from our leaders -- even the young ones -- and expect them to think beyond what happened in six minutes of so-so sparring last week.

 

[terryl965]

KingTKD what I have seen from you is nothing more than a snot noise brat looking for someone to say yes you are great, but instead you are getting the opposite. Maybe attitude is something that needs to be worked on from you, I would go and ask your instructor to forgive you and could he take some time and explain the Tenets of TKD to you.