Conform to My Style or Else!

[dancingalone]

Well, not really in my case, but the thread title was meant to be provocative.

I have a new adult student who has been training with us with 3 classes now. He catches on quickly, as he's trained before in boxing and wrestling. Obviously he has well developed punches, albeit of the boxing type. He tends to rise up on his toes on most of the punches and he also leans into the blows. Which is fine to me. I studied Jhoon Rhee TKD which had quite a bit of boxing influence itself.

His personal style seems to bother the other instructors a bit however. And I noticed they're trying to straighten his back and eliminate the lean when he is learning/practicing Chon-Ji, the first hyung. My inclination is to leave him alone.

Your thoughts? Again as with most of my topics, although the discussion usually involves a personal anecdote, please don't assume necessarily that this is a request for personal advice. Instead, I'd like for this to be more of a general back and forth discussion about the advantages of style conformity vs. individual preference.

 

[Tez3]

I think it would depend on whether what he was doing was effective or notas to whethr you tried to change it. We have a new guy in our MMA class who stands on his toes all the time to punch, it's not effective at all so we are trying to change it, as you know in MMA we are fairly fluid about style, it tends to be what works for you. This isn't working for him, his punching is very weak so he needs to change it.

It may be an argument of substance over style or a chicken/egg one lol! How important is it to the instructor that the student mirrors each move exactly as he or an instruction book tells them to? Is it the look of the movements that's important or the effectiveness of the technique? Of course this is assuming that the technique is being done correctly despite small variations such as you mention. The instructor could state that he is teaching a precise movement and you have to do it precisely to make it work.

Perhaps it matters more on some techniques than others?

 

[jks9199]

Balance between the "let it all go" and "must match exactly" approach. Is what he's doing technically sound and does it conform to the principles of your style? Is it simply that he's doing something that comes out in more advanced students and just isn't taught at a beginner level? Or is it against your principles?

When he's doing forms/kata, he has to conform; that's what they're about, of course.

 

[granfire]

Somewhere in the madness that is a form, there is some system to it.

In Chong-Ji leaning or not is of little consequence. It's a straight forward beginner form.

But the rest builds on it, and sometimes leaning can make it difficult to do the next move.

Some stuff is cosmetic, some stuff is important even though it looks like the former. Kind of hard to tell.

But I don't think most instructors pick on the unimportant things just to picking, after a while in the style, especially with no prior experience it's the thing to do. In grained, like breathing.

I did find myself noticing the differences instructors can develop in the same form.
the tournaments were a fun thing for that.

 

[miguksaram]

It seems when it comes to you forms, he should adhere to proper body positioning and movement. Remember he is learning a different style of fighting so he should be prepared to make some adjustments in how he executes techniques. This doesn't mean a total overhaul on how he does things, but, as I mentioned, when it comes to the forms, he needs to do it the way you teach.

It would equivalent to me going into my karate class and executing everything in a taekwondo style, including my forms. Why bother joining another system if you are not willing to make some changes in what you do?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

His personal style seems to bother the other instructors a bit however. And I noticed they're trying to straighten his back and eliminate the lean when he is learning/practicing Chon-Ji, the first hyung. My inclination is to leave him alone.

Tough call. I'd say that while he is training taekwondo, he should learn to punch according to the style. I was a proficient epee fencer prior to my study of kumdo. But part of learning kumdo was learning kumdo, not doing epee techniques with a bamboo sword.

In this case, rather than change the punches in his arsenal, he needs to add taekwondo punches to his arsenal.

Daniel

 

[StudentCarl]

I think it's possible to try to correct too many things at once, which can be overwhelming. It does take time to adjust one's movement to a different system. With beginners we focus on the core (critical few) ideas and coach the details over time as the student learns. If posture is a core idea, then emphasize it earlier. If it's more a matter of fine-tuning, then let the student get more reps with the core ideas first. Maybe the discussion to have is what is core vs. fine tuning at this student's experience level.

 

[ForeverStudent]

Taekwondo tuls is fully - defined, in centimeters. Other Taekwondo disciplines are less, but still defined (breaking,self defense, sparring..). There as i was learned is necessary to add personality.

But tuls are strictly defined set of movements.

I am not so familiar with english, so i don't know what it means "raising the toes". It maybe means that while in long stance (gunnun sogi chumbi) he raises his rear foot from the ground while punching or blocking. In my club it is considered as mistake and completely inproper stance.

My opinnion - there should be no changes to tuls. If he learns it wrong later it will be harder to fix.

 

[Tez3]

If everyone who has posted so far were able to meet up to train and you all did the basic movements you considered defined TKD, how alike or different would they be?

 

[granfire]

If everyone who has posted so far were able to meet up to train and you all did the basic movements you considered defined TKD, how alike or different would they be?

Not one bit alike :lol:

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Remember he is learning a different style of fighting so he should be prepared to make some adjustments in how he executes techniques. This doesn't mean a total overhaul on how he does things, but, as I mentioned, when it comes to the forms, he needs to do it the way you teach.

It would equivalent to me going into my karate class and executing everything in a taekwondo style, including my forms. Why bother joining another system if you are not willing to make some changes in what you do?

I'd be inclined to echo those sentiments.

 

[miguksaram]

If everyone who has posted so far were able to meet up to train and you all did the basic movements you considered defined TKD, how alike or different would they be?

Hard to say...I hold the belief that if we met up, we would be too busy buying rounds at the nearest bar. Now afterwards...we would all have the same movements.

But in all honesty, I believe those of us who are KKW would have a similar (not exact) type of movement. This would differ due to various body types, age, and other martial art experiences that will creep up no matter how hard you try. This, would hold the same of the ITF people as well. They would have a good base of similarity in their techniques with outside factor supply some of the differences.

 

[granfire]

Hard to say...I hold the belief that if we met up, we would be too busy buying rounds at the nearest bar. Now afterwards...we would all have the same movements.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, I bet!

But in all honesty, I believe those of us who are KKW would have a similar (not exact) type of movement. This would differ due to various body types, age, and other martial art experiences that will creep up no matter how hard you try. This, would hold the same of the ITF people as well. They would have a good base of similarity in their techniques with outside factor supply some of the differences.

Well, I have seen huge differences in the organization, working from the same book, descending supposedly from the same Masters...

 

[dancingalone]

If everyone who has posted so far were able to meet up to train and you all did the basic movements you considered defined TKD, how alike or different would they be?

If we can take the hyung performances on Youtube as representative samples, I'm afraid the state of TKD is very much fragmented today. I'm not talking about the little kid forms either; I mean the official regional, national, and world championships held by the WTF, ITF, ATA, GTF, etc.

It's quite interesting to see the 'genetic drift' considering the forms pretty much started from the same seed parents. Kind of like watching someone in Shotokan perform Heian Yondan and comparing it with someone from Chito-ryu doing Pinan Yondan.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

This, would hold the same of the ITF people as well.

To sine wave or not to sine wave?

-- ducks -- .

 

[ATC]

I would say correct him. TKD is a system that works best if done as the system have been developed.

The best in anything are the ones that understand why it is what they are doing and can do it precisely.

If you do not correct him now he will keep bad habits that seem great when isolated but once he is to fight or defend himself he may find that transitions from one technique to another will leave him out of position, slow, open, and defenseless.

When correcting him I would only fix one, two at most, techniques at a time.

 

[StudentCarl]

If everyone who has posted so far were able to meet up to train and you all did the basic movements you considered defined TKD, how alike or different would they be?

Two good things would happen:

First we'd have to match techniques to definitions. i.e. "To me this is a roundhouse kick."

Second, we'd have interesting discussions about where and why we agree and disagree. i.e. "I bring the kicking knee straight forward and up when chambering."

The second part would be very interesting if we focus on mechanics and efficiency, and not "this is how my GM taught it so it is the one true way."

 

[Flying Crane]

Do you believe in your system? Do you believe that it is sound and it works?

He came to you to learn from you. Teach him YOUR system.

If he wants to do it "boxing" style, if that works better for him, then he can go train in a boxing gym. Why then train with you?

 

[StudentCarl]

If everyone who has posted so far were able to meet up to train and you all did the basic movements you considered defined TKD, how alike or different would they be?

I suspect we'd be more alike than different because I think that we tend over time to adapt to move in more efficient ways.

Two good things would happen:

First we'd have to match techniques to definitions. i.e. "To me this is a roundhouse kick."

Second, we'd have interesting discussions about where and why we agree and disagree. i.e. "I bring the kicking knee straight forward and up when chambering."

The second part would be very interesting if we focus on mechanics and efficiency, and not "this is how my GM taught it so it is the one true way."

 

[Earl Weiss]

Many Moons ago when the easrth was still cooling and dinasoars roamed, a talented instructor told me about his training with different instructors and their different ways of doing things.

His view which I have adopted was that by being able to do whatever a particular instructor wanted helped him develop and become a good martial artist. So, the student needs to understand this. If he chooses not to try and perform as the instructor dicates, than why is he their in the first place.

I have had transfers students with different oulokks varying from their instructor walks and water and should be followed without question. I think someone on this board expressed a similar sentiment. If someone is visiting for a finite period and will be retuning to their main instructor. I may explain what and why we do something differently but will not suggest that they change.

I have also had excellent transfers who I have told about differences and said that I would not suggest they change and their response was that in my Gym I am their instructor and they will perform as I instruct. IMNSHO that is a good student. That being said, I am always open to questions.