Concepts Behind Defence

[Steel Tiger]

In my style defensive concepts are related to the traditional Chinese elemental agencies.

Fire = Clinging. Defensive techniques that deflects and 'sticks'.
Water = Avoidance. Defensive techniques that move entirely out of the line of attack.
Wood = Springing. Techniques that deflect and then spring back in a counterattack.
Metal = Cutting. Techniques that injure as they deflect.
Earth = Impenetrable. Techniques that block and keep attacks out.

I have been wondering if anyone else has similar conceptual ways of viewing the defensive aspects of their art.

 

[still learning]

Hello, One concept is to :KEEP IT SIMPLE.

Easy to remember and easy to apply, is my thoughts on concepts of defence.

Aloha

 

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

One concept is to :KEEP IT SIMPLE.

I can't agree with you more on this, the first thing we teach is the KISS philosophy Keep It Simple Sensei.

I personally have always found that the simplest self defence techniques always seem to work better than the fancy or pretty ones.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I understand where you are both coming from, but what I would like to know is if anyone else uses concepts like those I outlined to come to terms with different defensive techniques.

Each element I described is a different way of using a block or parry. For instance, the Fire techniques are used to deflect an attack and close range to use qinna.

 

[KempoGuy06]

In SKK we use the 5 animals: Tiger, leopard, crane, dragon and snake

Tiger: Raw power. Using powerful attacks to stop the attacker
Leopard: Speed and agility. Using angles and attacks the cause internal damage.
Dragon: Deceptive. Using spinning and deceptive movements to catch the attacker off gaurd for a counter attack
Crane: Distance: Attacking from a distance to keep the attack at bay, but can attack with in close quarters
Snake: Vital targets. Wrapping motions to contain attacker, then counter attacking vital targets like the eyes and throat.

I hope this what you were looking for. The animals are used in sparring as well but defined a little differently.

B

 

[tshadowchaser]

I do not use those concepts as a whole
I simply tell my people that running and avoidence are the first defence and to keep it simple and direct if those do not work

 

[Drac]

Hello, One concept is to :KEEP IT SIMPLE.

Easy to remember and easy to apply, is my thoughts on concepts of defence.

Aloha

I can't agree with you more on this, the first thing we teach is the KISS philosophy Keep It Simple Sensei.

I personally have always found that the simplest self defence techniques always seem to work better than the fancy or pretty ones.

No disrespect to you or your discipline, but I must agree withe these posters..

 

[meth18au]

I will 2nd Drac here!!!

 

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

Before going on I will make clear that I wasn't trying to insult or 'debunk' anyone's way of teaching of self defence, so I appologize if anyone has taken offence to my comments.

That being said...

My head instructor trained in Kung Fu (Praying Mantis and 5 Animal Style I believe) before he switched over to Karate. He told me once, that he found the blocks with the nicest names always seemed to be the ones that were the least ineffective.

As I said not trying to offend anyone, just giving my opinion...

 

[MBuzzy]

The main concepts that we use are the 3 basic elements of a self defense technique.

Escape
Submission
Retalliation

In addition to those, each technique has an idea similar to what you are describing. Some techniques receive the attacker's momentum, some deflect it, some move through it, some move into it, some avoid it.

 

[exile]

Animal iconography is definitely a marked feature of CMAs, and I'm not surprised that it shows up not only in the names for hsings in various Han arts but also in the symbolic representation of an actual physical conflict as an expression of the properties of various familiers of techniques. For the most part, so far as I know, that kind of symbolism is largely missing from the Korean arts—I could well be mistaken about this and if so would be very glad to get further information about where the KMA systematically use animal imagery. But TKD definitely does not do this sort of thing, nor so far as I know does its older-sibling art TSD. And I'd bet anything that Hapkido doesn't!

I think the widespread use of animal imagery in Chinese culture as a kind of semiotic device to encode relationships in other domains of thought or activity is something perhaps unique in Asia...

 

[CuongNhuka]

We have a bunch of differnit sets of philosphies. Which can be summed up as: If you have to use it, do. If it works and wants to come out, it will so use it. If you have to use it, it may be your own fault. And some more I cann't sum up.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I think we are all in agreement that keeping things simple is best.

It appears that SKK uses animal imagery and TSD uses similar defensive concepts to my own but without the image-inducing descriptions. TKD and Hapkido would appear to be the same as, or at least similar to, TSD.

What about Karate? Are there only one or two applications of a block or parry?

What about Jujutsu?
What about Aikido? The water and wood concepts I use are very similar to concepts in Aikido (not surprising really, Aikido and Bagua and vey similar).
What about Escrima/Kali/Arnis? How are defensive concepts transmitted to students so that they will remember?

I have five concepts that allow for a myriad of defensive techniques, whether they are to close the range, maintain the range, extend the range, or just plain run.
I find the concepts with their names are a powerful mnemonic for understanding defence.

 

[theletch1]

ST, the fire and water concepts are very much aiki. I've never had them put forth like that in an aikido dojo but that is exactly how I would view them. Sticking to an attacker allows us maintain control over our attacker as we redirect the energy into a lock. Very much the fire concept.

Complete avoidance is always a great concept...especially before the fight. We do have some scenarios that avoiding the attack completely just won't work but most of our techniques use "blending" to get into and around the attackers energy. Very much water.

Fire and water...yin and yang. Very fitting for aikido as balance is always at the core of what we are trying to do...whether it's maintaining our own or taking someone Else's.

 

[still learning]

Hello, We say become the " CAT"

Ever corner a cat? or see a dog cornor a CAT? ...watch the way it defends itself or attack and fight back?

Escaping is it's main goal!

When need to be:" BECOME THE CAT!"

For those who need to practice this? ...as soon as I can catch one cat....it will be sent to you?).

Aloha,

 

[Steel Tiger]

Complete avoidance is always a great concept...especially before the fight. We do have some scenarios that avoiding the attack completely just won't work but most of our techniques use "blending" to get into and around the attackers energy. Very much water.

From my point of view the classic water defensive concept is to flow around an attack to put yourself behind the attacker, letting his momentum carry him past you.

I am pleased to hear that my idea of how Aikido worked, on a conceptual level, was not far from the actuality.

I am a big fan of fire concepts because I like qinna, but I find all the concepts to be of value.

 

[exile]

I think we are all in agreement that keeping things simple is best.

It appears that SKK uses animal imagery and TSD uses similar defensive concepts to my own but without the image-inducing descriptions. TKD and Hapkido would appear to be the same as, or at least similar to, TSD.

What about Karate? Are there only one or two applications of a block or parry?

I'm not a karateka... but based on what I know about bunkai for the classic karate kata, and the way in which these kata were broken into `minimal combat sequences' and then recombined to form standard TKD hyungs, my guess would be, no—there will be many applications of a blocking motion; similarly for a punching motion. Motions and moves are two different kinds of things; so look at Rick Clark's book, 75 Down Blocks, which shows, literally, 75 different applications for the simple, classic down block shared by all the karate-based MAs. A blocking motion can be a strike (to a lowered head, to a carotid sinus, to a weak point in the attackers's upper arm); it can be an upward elbow strike (the upper chambering motion), or part of an arm pin using the elbow to estabish the pin on the attacker's trapped arm, followed by a downward elbow strike (the rapid downward upper arm motion) followed by a hammerfist to the aforementioned targets; it can be part of a throw, and many other things. A punch can be a punch, but it can also be part of a crippling or fatal neck twist (with the other fist's `chambering' motion the supplying the other half of the twisting force), as well as part of a throw, and so on. There are elegant, robust bunkai for kata sequences containing these movements in which one or another of these techs is a valid and highly effective interpretation. I'd have to say, one of the great things about kata, and therefore karate technique, is the elegant packaging, whereby four or five different applications are derivable for each motion (in the context of a similar intepretation of the preceding and following motion, of course).

The different again is semiotic: the karate-based arts don't use animal references to encode these respective multiple interpretations.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Motions and moves are two different kinds of things; so look at Rick Clark's book, 75 Down Blocks, which shows, literally, 75 different applications for the simple, classic down block shared by all the karate-based MAs.

This is very interesting because it goes to the heart of what I am trying to understand for other arts. Clark has found 75 ways to use the same simple technique because of varying conceptuals approaches which are dictated, to a certain degree, by the way in which one is attacked and how one wishes to deal with the attack.

In my own case, we have eight basic blocks or parries - high, middle, low for the left and right, head and groin. These combine with the five concepts to produce an effective all round defence.

It is very interesting combining the water concept of avoidance with these eight techniques.

 

[exile]

This is very interesting because it goes to the heart of what I am trying to understand for other arts. Clark has found 75 ways to use the same simple technique because of varying conceptuals approaches which are dictated, to a certain degree, by the way in which one is attacked and how one wishes to deal with the attack.

Exacty. The down block may be a simple deflection, or a trapping move, or a rich package of precise strikes, depending on the nature of the attack—a grab? A punch? An attempt to take you to the ground?—and the strategic plan of your defense: do you want to go inside or outside? Do you want to go for a trap to set up a throw (this is much more common in karate kata than many people believe; it was a major part of the very old-school Okinawan karate), or apply a pin to force high-value targets like the head into range?

In my own case, we have eight basic blocks or parries - high, middle, low for the left and right, head and groin. These combine with the five concepts to produce an effective all round defence.

It is very interesting combining the water concept of avoidance with these eight techniques.

My guess would be that a detailed systematic comparison between the Chinese and O/J systems would show a high degree of strategic/tactical convergence (Korean is a somewhat more complex situation, but in its oldest modern form will pattern with some of the Japanese styles). I think however that the Chinese theory of combat elements may be more consciously systematized. And this is part of that cultural difference I was thinking of—the other difference being the animal imagery. I have the sense—could well be wrong about this—that historically, Japanese have much preferred floral to animal iconography—possibly because animals challenge the idea of perfect formal control which seems such a key element in Japanese æsthetics. You see a lot of reference to flowers and landscape features in e.g. Japanese gardens, but little acknowledgement of fauna....

 

[Steel Tiger]

My guess would be that a detailed systematic comparison between the Chinese and O/J systems would show a high degree of strategic/tactical convergence (Korean is a somewhat more complex situation, but in its oldest modern form will pattern with some of the Japanese styles). I think however that the Chinese theory of combat elements may be more consciously systematized. And this is part of that cultural difference I was thinking of—the other difference being the animal imagery. I have the sense—could well be wrong about this—that historically, Japanese have much preferred floral to animal iconography—possibly because animals challenge the idea of perfect formal control which seems such a key element in Japanese æsthetics. You see a lot of reference to flowers and landscape features in e.g. Japanese gardens, but little acknowledgement of fauna....

I have a feeling that what you are saying about Japan is probably close to the truth. Animal descriptions I have always viewed as being more of an indicator of the general direction of a style or system as a whole. In my own case, there are two animals involved, the tiger and the snake. These are meant to give a practitioner an idea of approach they should be using when employing the styes techniques. This is further developed in that the tiger is an early learning tool which falls into the background as one becomes more acomplished when the snake concepts take over.

I might point out that these things are not to be taken literally. The nature of the animals in CMAs are those that have been imposed upon them by humanity. A snake is not really mysterious and deceptive. They are merely tools for memory. Afterall, who would seek to behave in the way a praying mantis actually behaves. I think this point is lost on a lot of practitioners of CMAs. They fall into the trap of trying to act like a tiger, or a dragon, and lose the purpose that these animals are supposed to serve.