Xingyi Addict - oh no...not again

[clfsean]

I didn't do STS last night... didn't have time due to a screw up at my rec center where I teach.

I'll do it tonight though!!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I didn't do STS last night... didn't have time due to a screw up at my rec center where I teach.

I'll do it tonight though!!

WHAT!!!

no time for SANTI SHI!!!!

Why that's just wrong..... Or it could be that I need to seek psychiatric help.... but either way... that's just wrong

 

[oaktree]

Hey Xue I'll see if I can find more of the video or something similar.
I remember you mentioning before about the book which is a great book written by two great teachers.

Here is interesting clips on my process of finding the video.
Sometimes I post things so I have an easier storage reference.

It is like Wushu movies mixed with Parkour
http://www.56.com/u73/v_NDkxMDU4MjI.html

http://www.56.com/u48/v_NDkxMDU4ODU.html

I wonder if Chen Bing's sister Juan Chen is focus on a different aspect then Bing if I ever get a chance to meet one of them I will ask.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hey Xue I'll see if I can find more of the video or something similar.
I remember you mentioning before about the book which is a great book written by two great teachers.

Here is interesting clips on my process of finding the video.
Sometimes I post things so I have an easier storage reference.

It is like Wushu movies mixed with Parkour
http://www.56.com/u73/v_NDkxMDU4MjI.html

http://www.56.com/u48/v_NDkxMDU4ODU.html

I wonder if Chen Bing's sister Juan Chen is focus on a different aspect then Bing if I ever get a chance to meet one of them I will ask.

I have meant Chen Juan and at that time she seemed very much like her father Chen Zhenglei, but then when I meant her she was teaching with him so it is hard to say

But I do not think Chen Bing is the son of Chen Zhenglei, I believe he is the son of Chen Yinghe who was the older brother of Chen Xiaowang and Chen Xiaoxing.

However in the traditional Chinese family structure he would call her sister since they are the same family and the same generation, to us they are cousins

 

[clfsean]

WHAT!!!

no time for SANTI SHI!!!!

Why that's just wrong..... Or it could be that I need to seek psychiatric help.... but either way... that's just wrong

IT'S TWUE, IT'S TWUE...

But I'll get it situated into a daily thing.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I noticed something interesting last night.

I am not anywhere near almost 15 minutes per side I was at before the injuries started actually I am at 3 minutes per side twice a day and I am not pushing it, actually pushing it in Santi is not a good thing, but I have noticed something after last night.

First after standing in left Santi I went to right Santi and the posture corrected itself. Basically I started noticing my errors and the entire posture just went back to where it should be.

Second my actual posture, regular standing not Santi, is better and my knee is feeling stronger. I have a strange feeling in my knee after I am done with Santi it feels like it is welling up but when I do a physical check it is normal. Then after a few minutes the feeling subsides and there is no knee pain at all and it feels stronger.

But as I type this I realize that I did not stand in Santi this morning (BLASPHEME!!!) I was in a hurry and had to leave early. But I do think I will find a place here at work to stand.

I also started Re-Reading "Di Guoyong On Xingyiquan - Volume 1 - Five Element Foundation" (I am so doomed) and I am really getting into the links between inner and outer and the links to the postures and the 5 organs.

 

[clfsean]

5 minutes total last night on each leg for grand total of 10 total...

Getting there... singular stands aren't burning nearly as bad as last week. This means... next week is two minutes a side & hopefully starting down the road(s).

 

[Xue Sheng]

Strange thing happened, or maybe just wishful thinking

I got a VCD the other day and it was showing a Xingyiquan school in Beijing and as I watched two students were doing Tuishou and they were just kind of pushing each other back and forth. The sifu, Jia Yongan, stop them and took the position of one of his students and threw a series of relaxed back hands to the face of the other student (He was not actually hitting them hard, just a tap) to show them what they should do.

After hat he turned to the camera and said "I hate the martial arts dance"

For some reason at that point I had this thought "there is my sifu". But leave it to me to find a sifu that is thousands of miles away that speaks only Mandarin.

Well now I have to do the research and see if what I saw was the real thing or just for the camera.

HE also said something that made me happy and concerned me a bit. He said he would love to teach foreigners to spread real Chinese Martial Arts. Now, if that is true, I HAVE to meet with this guy.

Also like most Xingyiquan guys in Beijing he teaches Baguazhang too.

 

[Aaron McKillip]

As hard as I try I can't seem to stay away from Xingyiquan long.

:uhohh: I haven't done it yet

But it is getting harder and harder to resist :erg:

I have this incredible urge to stand in Santi Shi and train Wuxing again :EG:...

:hmm: Maybe I need to find a support group


But to keep this in context with Xingyiquan here is a bit of a progression as to the five elements and Xingyiquan in development from one posture to another and attack and defense. I do believe I a while back that I posted this before


Xingyiquan Wuxingquan (5 elements fist) is made up of five forms

Piquan – splitting fist – metal
Zuanquan – drilling fist – water
Bengquan –smashing fist – wood
Paoquan – pounding fist – fire
Hengquan – crossing fist - earth

Each of the above 5 is trained individually first and then put together into the 5 elements linking form

Also each element produces the next or each element can be used to defeat another

Metal produces water
Water produces Wood
Wood produces Fire
Fire produces Earth
Earth produces Metal


Metal defeats Wood
Wood defeats Earth
Earth defeats Water
Water defeats Fire
Fire defeats Metal

This leads to a never ending circle of attack and defense

Wood then can changes to fire to counter metal,
Metal change to water to counter fire,
Fire changes to earth to counter water
Water changes to wood to counter earth
Earth changes to metal to counter wood
And you are back at the beginning

But these are the basics and in an actual fight things are not expected to follow any set pattern, and to be honest Xingyiquan is going to hit you hard and hopefully once but if that fails it will hit you repeatedly.

In my opinion the main philosophy of Xingyiquan is rather simple “I am going to hit you….hard”

I studied Hsing-I Chuan for a short time and one of the things I learned was Piquan. My Lineage was actually Tang Shou Tao Hsing-I:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tang_Shou_Tao
So my training was a little different than that of the traditional Xingyi practitioner. I had to go through many forms before I got to do Piquan.

I was told by my Sifu that each of the 5 element forms from Hsing-I uses Chi Gong that corresponds to a specific organ in the body. Except he did not know which organ it was that corresponded to each of the 5 element forms. My question is this... What organ does Piquan focus on improving?

Aaron McKillip

 

[oaktree]

Dear Mr. Aaron McKillip,

It is a little strange to do many forms in order to get to a certain Wuxing fist. It is more common to learn San Ti Shi then move on to learning Wuxing form. However everyone is different so I guess if the results are the same and you are happy with it that is fine.

To address the question.
Pi Quan 劈拳(splitting fist) is related to the Metal element in Wuxing.
The organ for the Metal element is the Lungs.
So why does Pi Quan represent Metal or the Lungs?

The action of Pi Quan is to rise and fall. This is my opinion:
The rise action opens the chest in Zhong Fu(Lu-1) guiding the Qi, when you make the hands to fall the Qi goes down the Lung channel.
I think of this as pouring water down the arm or letting it go from high to low in the actual channel.

That is my opinion why it is like that.
I have other opinions why the other fists relate to the organs following the Jingluo as well.But if you know the Jingluo and you watch the form being done then you can see how it relates to the organs.

Interesting question would be did the person who created Xingyiquan create the energies first than added the elements to match the enegies then matched the organs to the elements.

 

[Aaron McKillip]

Yes, I thought it was a little strange as well. I wasn't happy with this type of a progression of training so I did leave a (long) while back. Also the instructor could not do some of the movements that well anymore.

I showed some of the things I was taught from that lineage to another internal Master and he said it did not look like Hsing-I to him. But when he saw the Piquan and Post Standing he said he recognized it.
He thought that the person who taught me just mixed styles together (internal and external), but actually the mixing was done a long time ago. I just didn't realize it until recently.

I did think the Post Standing qigong practise in the style that I learned was very unique. I was told it was because it was matching the movements and strikes from Hsing-I. I would have to push the stomach all the way out and pull it all the way in when I was breathing.

I have done Chen Tai Chi, Shaolin Chi Kung, and a little Tong Bei. I did not have to do this type of breathing in any of these others. But then they too were unique in their own way of activating the Chi flow. All of them were unique in their own way.

Aaron M.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Aaron McKillip

Piquan = Metal = lung
Zuanquan = water = kidney
Bengquan = wood = liver
Paoquan = fire = heart
Hengquan = earth = spleen


Hebei Style Xingyiquan generally starts you out in standing in Wuji and Santi Shi before it gets to Piquan depending on the lineage and you will also stand in Zhan Zhaung. And also depending on the lineage it generally progresses from Piquan to Zuanquan to Bengquan to Paoquan to Henquan which is also known as Wuxingquan (5 elements fist) then you learn the 5 elements linking form after that you learn 12 animals. There are also multiple weapons forms again depending on lineage

There are also other more advanced standing forms in Hebei that I believe the English for is subdue the dragon and hold the tiger. And if you go the Shanxi route there are other forms of standing as well such as ape and bear standing.

As for Tang Shou Tao Hsing-I, if I understand the link you supplied, it is not so much Xingyiquan as it is a combination of Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan.

I did think the Post Standing qigong practise in the style that I learned was very unique. I was told it was because it was matching the movements and strikes from Hsing-I. I would have to push the stomach all the way out and pull it all the way in when I was breathing.

I have done Chen Tai Chi, Shaolin Chi Kung, and a little Tong Bei. I did not have to do this type of breathing in any of these others. But then they too were unique in their own way of activating the Chi flow. All of them were unique in their own way.

I have done a few forms of Qigong, and a couple of styles of Taijiquan and of course some Xingyiquan and all I can say about the “push the stomach all the way out and pull it all the way in when I was breathing” based on what my Yang Sifu says, that is just wrong and could cause problems. Based on my limited Xingyiquan experience I have never heard of that. Breathing in the beginning is obvious and as you progress it becomes less obvious and at higher levels Taoist breathing but never forced.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Interesting question would be did the person who created Xingyiquan create the energies first than added the elements to match the enegies then matched the organs to the elements.

That is an interesting question and historically speaking you would likely have to look to Dai Xinyi for the answer.

However if you look at it from the legendary perspective it is likely a by product since it was made for war.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Interesting note on the 5 elements and the 5 internal organs

You can get a similar association between 5 steps of the 13 postures and organs in Yang Taijiquan as it comes from Tung Ying Chieh

West - Ji - press - metal - lung
North - An - push - water - kidney
East - Lu - roll back - wood - liver
South - Peng - ward off - fire - heart
Center - Wuji - center - earth - spleen

Order given from Tung Ying Chieh’s Red book , but in reality it is looked at as a circle so order so likely order does not matter

South - Peng - ward off - fire - heart
East - Lu - roll back - wood - liver
West - Ji - press - metal - lung
North - An - push - water - kidney
Center - Wuji - center - earth - spleen

Also there is an order differnce between Xingyiquan and Traditional Chinese medicine, although I am not sure that matters much because there is another lineage in Hebei stlye Xingyiquan that has a slightly different order as well.

Xingyiquan
lung
kidney
liver
heart
spleen

TCM
liver
heart
spleen
lung
kidney

And you know, I have been looking for a link between Wuxingquan and the 13 postures for a few years now and I think I just found it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OOPS:duh:

I made a mistake; in re-reading this I should have said 5 of the 8 gates.

I mistakenly applied the directions to this as well and although the directions do apply to the 8 gates it is not really applicable in the context of postures, elements and internal organs

Sorry about that :asian:

And yet another correction , I just re-read the section of the Red Book by Tung Ying Chieh that deals with this, I have to stop typing from memory when I don't actually have one :duh:, The directions is where he applies the elements and the 4 of the 8 gates are then applied to the directions to give you the actual postures. And the 5th is center which is Wuji which is earth and not a posture but one of the 5 directions.

Sorry for the confusion.... I think form this point on I shall just refer to them all as Bruce.... it cuts down on the confusion

Or I could go with an ol favorite :lisafault:

 

[oaktree]

Piquan = Metal = lung
Zuanquan = water = kidney
Bengquan = wood = liver
Paoquan = fire = heart
Hengquan = earth = spleen

That is the sequence order I learned.

about the “push the stomach all the way out and pull it all the way in when I was breathing” based on what my Yang Sifu says, that is just wrong and could cause problems. Based on my limited Xingyiquan experience I have never heard of that. Breathing in the beginning is obvious and as you progress it becomes less obvious and at higher levels Taoist breathing but never forced.

I think the confusion about Adominal breathing (Zheng Fu Hu Xi) is that people think if you just push the stomach muscles out and in you are doing correctly.

When you use force it is creating tension and this is not the correct method.

It is suppose to be gentle. If you focus the mind on the Dan tian the breath and Qi will naturally go there and the breathing will be relaxed,you will sink into the Dan tian and you will notice that the expansion and contraction is not as extreme when you do it conciously.

The Alchemist Ge(Ko) Hung(Hong) like to mention that placing a feather over the nose and the breath should be gentle enough not to blow it off.

One of the problems when doing Adominal breathing incorrectly is Qi stagnation. This is caused by using to much muscles and not being gentle and relaxed.

That is an interesting question and historically speaking you would likely have to look to Dai Xinyi for the answer.

However if you look at it from the legendary perspective it is likely a by product since it was made for war.

That sounds like a project. Is this like one of those San Feng projects?
:uhyeah:

Also there is an order differnce between Xingyiquan and Traditional Chinese medicine, although I am not sure that matters much because there is another lineage in Hebei stlye Xingyiquan that has a slightly different order as well.

I have no idea why they are different. That would be interesting as well. Are you sure you do not want to write a book on Xingyiquan instead? :uhyeah:

 

[Xue Sheng]

That sounds like a project. Is this like one of those San Feng projects?
:uhyeah:

Only if you throw in Yue Fei .

Are you sure you do not want to write a book on Xingyiquan instead? :uhyeah:

Just look around MT... I think I already have