Community Ed Sanchinryu

Cruentus

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Ben Robertson said:
First off, I am a student of Sanchin Ryu, and I don't want to confuse anyone into thinking I'm bashing my chosen style. However I am curious myself about the history, or roots, of the style, as I believe knowing it will make my MA experience a more holistic one. Many of the questions raised here are ones that I am in search of answers to myself. Any questions to my Sensei or other Senseis has only been answered in a vague manner, very similar to Punisher73's replies.


I don't believe you truely know who you are until you have figured out where you've been. History is important.

Sanchin Ryu really is a good style that has it's merits.

Please do not take this as me bashing Sanchin Ryu. I am not saying it is a bad or "illegitimate" style, as I do not know enough about it to say one way or the other. I would have to see what is being done on the training floor to make any further assessment.

But I will say that the elusive history and background information is very problematic. What makes it elusive is the lack of verifiable information. I am thankful that Punisher73 took the time to answer my questions, however I cannot verify any of the answers through a third party source.

For starters, I don't know who Punisher73 actually is, or if he is really a cop or not (not that being a cop gives you credability; although some of the best training is available through LE, I have seen some pretty goofy stuff from LE as well). I don't know what specifically CGM Dearborn trained in, who his instructors were, or how long he trained before developing Sanchinryu. I don't even know if Mr. Dearborn is a real person or completely manufactured. This may sound silly, but stranger things have happened. Also, making up a style and saying "I'll take on all challangers" does little for ones legitimacy. Although there were tough areas in 1970's Michigan, it wasn't exactly a third would feudal country where one could legally get away with that sort of thing. Case in point: Asida Kim, the fraudulent Ninja, also says he will take on all challangers.

Also, although it is good that one would consult attorneys, and experts to develop self-defense programs, saying "I talked to a few of these experts" isn't exactly anything verifiable. Same issue with "we were a prt of a university study" with no reference to the actual study.

Now, again, I am not saying that Sanchinryu is a bad style, or that you guys are frauds doing bad, or anything of the sort. For all I know, you guys might be a great group of people doing wonderful things to impart self-defense knowledge to kids. This is why any Sanchinryu adults (I don't teach kids programs) have an open invitation to anything I do, as I would be happy to meet some of these people myself. So please don't take this as a slam.

It is just that the lack of verifiable information does not really look good. Now, I understand that the organization might be doing this to avoid criticism from traditionalists who have issues with creating a style. However, the trade-off is that when an informed person (who I realize is not 95% of anyone signing up for community ed) is looking for background info, it is going to sound like Sanchin Ryu is a scam, or worse, a"martial cult" rather then a good place to get training.

Here is a good E-article on martial cults: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/cults.htm

Certianly not all of the article applies to this conversation here. Hopefully, not much at all will apply to Sanchin Ryu. However, it is a good article with good online resources as well.

Paul Janulis
 

RRouuselot

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Just a couple of comments:



1)Its seems the people that claim the highest ranks always seem to say rank means nothing to them..if so then why claim it? (may or may not apply to Sanchin Ryu)

2)I see a lot of people on the Internet try to justify the legitimacy of their art by claiming they work in or with Law Enforcement. This is like a big joke for me. I have trained LE people (US Military, Japanese Secret Service etc) and I get to see a lot of the crap they have picked up over the years and show them why a good portion of it is useless.

3)Some say lineage is important some say it isnt. They are both right to some extent. It is important because more than a few people try to BS their way into the MA community claiming they have built a better mouse trap have made their art more street effective etc.etcWhen making these claims and giving their lineage one can see whether they are being truthful or not. For example if someone says I studied XXXX style from XXXX teacher and revamped it to make it more street effective people can agree or disagree. Giving this information one can find out how long and to what extent that person actually studied with said teacher, was he actually any good or not and so on. Most made up styles choose not to put out information on where their style came from past its founder for just such reasons. We had one member on MT that claimed he studied a style, gotten a pretty high rank8th dan I think, then refused to say who he trained with, claimed rank meant nothing to him, made up his own style, claimed it was better and more street effective, and that he had proved his style was legit because he worked in LE. Come to find out he had forged his dan rank from the style he claimed to have trained in and lied about a few other things. This is prety much the S.O.P. for people that make up "new styles"....There are very few arts that need improving to be more street effective. The reason why lineage is not important is it doesnt matter if you study the best style in the world if you dont have the stones to pull the trigger when you need to then your screwed.

4)Coming from an Okinawan based training background I have to say that Sanchin is the name of a kata practiced by Uechi Ryu, Ryue Ryu and Gojo Ryu. So naming an art Sanchin Ryu seems kind of dumb to me. Also, some of the forms you list have legit names but some are obviously made up using uneducated Japanese. The legit ones are: * Naihachi San (is this supposed to be Naichanchi Sandan?) Wansu, Chinto Kata. Those are all legit kata found in any number of styles. Since I have not seen someone from Sanchin Ryu perform them I can not say if they do the Japanese or Okinawan version.

I have a rather extensive book collection with both English and Japanese listings of just about every legit kata known, what style practices it and where it most likely came from. I dont find any of the following from your style listed in any of them: Sanchin San, Sei San Chin, Yin, Yang, Sanchin-ichi, Sanchin-ni, Geri Seiu, Seiu San, Kakato-Hiza, Empi-Uraken, Kibon Ki. They are obviously "made up" and not legit kata that can be traced back to Okinawa. There is no Sanchin 1,2, or 3....only sanchin.

Hell, these are just improper use of Japanese words not the names of kata: Geri Seiu, (kicking??) Seiu San, Kakato-Hiza,(fighting knee???) Empi-Uraken, (elbow backfist???) Kibon ki (????)
 
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Ben Robertson

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Tulisan said:
Please do not take this as me bashing Sanchin Ryu...

...But I will say that the elusive history and background information is very problematic....
...It is just that the lack of verifiable information does not really look good.
I did not feel that you were bashing. Actually many of your questions are the same one's I have yet to find any concrete and verifiable answer to. When specific, direct questions are asked in regards to the elusive answers, the person asking is made to feel that he is a lesser student, and that he should believe without questioning. I have stumbled onto this thread and many others on line looking for answers, and have only found others with the same questions.



Tulisan, although you are very skeptical, I still feel that you are looking at this very open-mindedly, and I respect that.
 

The Kai

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IMHO _ GOOD WEBSITE, Young man of limited skill with overdone rank. How about the backgrounds of the village or the waterfall LOL! Mysterious Style, grandmaster

Todd
 

The Kai

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Any body can claim to teac LE, but what are you teaching?? I know around here the local law frowns upon officers going toe to toe with said subject. Also strrikes to he head or body with a stick are also frowned upon

Todd
 
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Shidan

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The Kai said:
IMHO _ GOOD WEBSITE, Young man of limited skill with overdone rank. How about the backgrounds of the village or the waterfall LOL! Mysterious Style, grandmaster

Todd
Maybe the photos are from a satellite office ;)

They have a workshop soon here
Wonder if it 'members' only?


rrouuselot said:
I have a rather extensive book collection with both English and Japanese listings of just about every legit kata known, what style practices it and where it most likely came from. I dont find any of the following from your style listed in any of them: Sanchin San, Sei San Chin, Yin, Yang, Sanchin-ichi, Sanchin-ni, Geri Seiu, Seiu San, Kakato-Hiza, Empi-Uraken, Kibon Ki. They are obviously "made up" and not legit kata that can be traced back to Okinawa. There is no Sanchin 1,2, or 3....only sanchin.

Hell, these are just improper use of Japanese words not the names of kata: Geri Seiu, (kicking??) Seiu San, Kakato-Hiza,(fighting knee???) Empi-Uraken, (elbow backfist???) Kibon ki (????)


Also, my brother commented that they do something that looks very much like Isshin-Ryu's Seiuchin Kata but call it something else :? Again, maybe its done this way for the kids and the Adults do Seiuchin?
 
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LT2002

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punisher73 said:
No offense taken. As I stated in one of my posts Sanchinryu is not for everyone. .......snip......

CGM is short for chief grandmaster. CGM Dearman is going to celebrate his 50th year of consistant martial arts study this year, and he is in his late 50's. He is a private individual and doesn't post his bio all over the place. He also would prefer to have students focus on Sanchinryu and it's merits instead of focusing on his past and what he did.

The young man in the photo is his youngest son who is in his late 20's. He is a good friend of mine and a great person. He has literally studied Sanchinryu his whole life and commits a great deal of time and effort to his training and his skill is very remarkable.

The website is designed to give an overview of the programs offered to students and a place for students to get supplies, and Sanchinryu's approach and philosophy. I'm not sure what other updates they might have in mind or what that might include.
As a former 'Sanchinka' myself I will agree with you that Sanchin-Ryu is NOT for everyone. It is for those who can't handle formal training or just don't have another option in their area.

The boys are not late 20's they are barely mid-20's

What programs are offered? You mentioned earlier about Project Secure Child, but there have been few if any classes in the past years and those aren't even mentioned on the website.

'Workshops' are listed on that site, but there is little work being done, it is more of a social gathering

Weapons are not used except by a few hand picked 'golden boys' because the rest of the student body is too 'stupid' to handle the training.

Students are made to feel inferior in a positive way (so they don't know it is happening) The comment about 'cult' makes me laugh because in a way there is a dominating force, and the participants willing continue to 'follow' without question - or those who don't ask questions about the 'past' are rewarded with high ranks. Pay your money, pay a progressive fee for your next rank, pay for membership - DON"T STUDY ANYTHING ELSE or you'll be banished.

It is likely the dumbest style out there for anyone who has a brain. IF you can think on your own - this is not the place for you. If you want to be lead - sign up!

What is even better is that once their best student was 'kicked' out (and we were told he quit), the sons were allowed to take over -so now the style is run by 20 year olds without life experience telling 40 & 50 year old people just 'HOW' life is.

Run - run away - run away and don't look back!

Oh and one more thing - for a guy who is 'private' and 'humble' why have the title 'Chief GRAND Master'?
 
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LT2002

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Tulisan said:
Just one question...

If you have such strong feelings as you expressed, then why did you list Bob Dearman as the most influental martial artist in the states? Or, did you mean bad influence?

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=341437#post341437

Just wondering.

Thanks,

Paul
Ah, good and fair question! :)

At one point, I was foolish enough to buy into the organization. Many, many years back there was a lot of good being done. Bill Adams was instrumental in getting the classes started, training the Sensei's and making sure there was good information available to the students........then the boys took over.

Bob started a good thing, but like many businesses when the kids get a hold of it, the business gets ruined.

I did see many young people come through in my tenur and did see some remarkable results - but the past years, things have changed and the group is very cliquish. If you are not a young man you are on the 'outside' of the inforamtion. Us older people just get shoved to the side.

Bob is a good speaker, he could be a televangilist he has such a following. He does have a way of bringing martial arts to people who just wouldn't last in a more traditional setting and this is impressive.

The techniques taught in Sanchin-Ryu are good. Nothing cheap about them. The concepts are ok. Not certain the motivation behind the kata is only reserved for the masters other than there are no Kata yet, and when Bob gets around to studying them, he'll show the Masters and the masters can show the rest.

Lots of ego in the ranks but students do as they see. So to answer your question. Geographically, he has brought MA to the masses (albeit misfit masses) and this is good.

Unfortunately, I'm not in any position to look to start in a new style, so if I every hear of a chaning of the guard I may consider starting with them again. For now, I'll rest my old bones.
 

still learning

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Hello, There is no set rules for promotions and anyone can set up there own schools,systems. We should not judge others. Does a teacher or professor be an old person to be a wise and good teacher.

If age is to be the judge? How come we have so many stupid adults even at 60 plus and on. Does this means all older martial artist are better than younger ones?

You should not judge any school or its systems and it's people. That will come from it's own students, when things happen in the real world to them.

I am sure we all can find fault in all the styles when we compare it.

Name me the school that is the closest to a true martial school? (note who will be making the rules for this? or make your own rules?..will it be fair?.....Aloha
 

MichiganTKD

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I have found very few young black belts and Instructors who have shown themselves to be wise. Younger black belts and Instructors tend to be guided by youthful energy. As such, they are better for teaching physical technique and relating to young students.
Wisdom is gained by experience. Experience comes from the combination of age, paying attention, and learning from your mistakes. Younger Instructors simply haven't reached this level.
There is a reason why, in many if not most organizations, one of the requirements for higher Dan level is age. It is acknowledged that age brings Wisdom. Not all older Instructors are wise, but far more older Instructors are wise than younger. A 28 year old individual is simply incapable of displaying the wisdom, insight, and knowlege required of, say, a 6th or 7th Dan black belt. Certainly no legitimate organization would bestow such high rank on a 28 year old. Unless his father founded the system.
And you're damn right I'll judge a style or organization if many of its students are people unfit to be in other schools (read: misfits or troublemakers.) There is a difference between using martial arts to help troubled students, and having troublemakers comprise a large part of your student body. If Sanchinryu didn't have a problem with these issues, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
 
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Shidan

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still learning said:
Hello, There is no set rules for promotions and anyone can set up there own schools,systems. We should not judge others. Does a teacher or professor be an old person to be a wise and good teacher.

If age is to be the judge? How come we have so many stupid adults even at 60 plus and on. Does this means all older martial artist are better than younger ones?

You should not judge any school or its systems and it's people. That will come from it's own students, when things happen in the real world to them.

I am sure we all can find fault in all the styles when we compare it.

Name me the school that is the closest to a true martial school? (note who will be making the rules for this? or make your own rules?..will it be fair?.....Aloha
Well, I went with my brother to this weekend event with his kid. What a joke!

The kids were led by the younger 'masters' and surely there was more energy but these guys are not 6th degree level mindsets.

Not that a 6th degree is someone who should be floating across the ground and having a crowd of followers at their feet, but certainly there is a level of mindset that comes with a high rank. These guys don't have it. And why 6th? Why not just be a 4th degree? 4Th is pretty darn prestigious in every other style - here they treat 4th like the waiting point to be a real 'master'.

The head guy Dearman, he seems ok, but he has a bunch of groupies following him. Most of the people are young - probably 30 or younger and these are their "Master-Level" people. The older students (some in their 40's and 50's) are their colored belt students. They must run them off before they become a black belt.

The workout for the kids was ok -but the kids are so unrulely it's hard to see this as a serious learning environment. Did my nephew have 'fun' sure, but he could have as much fun at RomperRoom.

Discipline from the group is lacking even from the adults. People walking around in their gi's and belts to lunch (plenty of room to change). We even saw a couple adult brown belts in a restaurant with their belts on. What style permits its students to wear their workout clothes to non-workout functions.

People were sweating, but it wasn't because they were working out hard - it's a sauna in that place and we were pretty warm just sitting there.

Their techniques are soft and since it looked as though their brown belts were their 'ranking' non-dan students it was sad to see the lack of control and skill these people showed.

The black belts were locked away in another room, so the only way to see them was to walk up to the windows - very few looked like they had control.

These people don't compete in tournements - not because their technique is 'deadly' but because they suck. They wouldn't last in any serious karate tournament.

I was able to meet my nephew's instructor a tall young man (he too is a 'master') Very sad. The kid looks like he is good, but he is not. His technique wouldn't stand up if someone confronted him. Against the air - he looks great.

So, "Still Learning" to say don't judge a school or its students..... people need to judge. People should be warned when a martial art style advertises it will 'teach' one to defend themself. This sanchinryu (besides making up a name from a major kata and dumbing down its techniques to the masses) is not a good style for people to learn to defend themself.

If someone is looking to find a style and no one ever said anything about this style - they study it and are attacked and are not prepared to defend themself then it was our disservice to not at least discuss our opinion of what we saw.

If you watched this group and you liked it - you could say that here! Perhaps it works for someone, but in my opinon, from what I saw, there is a lot of young ego, encouraged by the head guy who appears to be calm and 'happy'. You can buy their T-shirts and video's though - those were for sale ;)

Can a young person be a good Martial Artist - absolutely! Can a young person be a good 'Master' and lead a bunch of low-IQ 60 year old adults - Absolutely. Just need to set yourself up with the group that makes you look the best.

There is a very slight chance that these 20-25 under 30 year old masters they had running around are 'excellent' representations of a talented Martial Artist as well as an educated adult.

Still LEarning - you are correct that there are no rules to setting up a school -anyone can do it, many do! And no a teacher does not need to be 'old' to be good. But good instructors in school or in Martial Arts ususally are very well rounded and have experienced much besides being a genius (ability to process ideas and facts effciently). These kids have not - you can see it from their actions! THey have lived protected lives and the sons (two or three??), in no way have experienced 'life' in the small protected land of Leslie, MI.

This is clearly a family business and it doesn't look like a very good one. But hey, don't take my word for it - see for yourself.

BTW - MIchigaTKD - I seriously doubt there were many 28 year old masters more like 24 years old - in any case - you are absolutely correct that a 28 year old has no business being a 6th degree master (promoted by his daddy) because the business needs to live on. If the kid is that good, the other students will see it and recognize him for it - he'll have plenty of time to earn his rightful rank. Heck at this rate, he'll be a 8th degree before his 30!
 
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clapping_tiger

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I am coming late to this topic, but when I read the first post and still wanted to post that a big warning sign is the "We do not participate in tournaments " thing. And like you stated later
These people don't compete in tournaments - not because their technique is 'deadly' but because they suck. They wouldn't last in any serious karate tournament.

This is usually the case from what I have seen. So once I heard/read the words we do not participate in tournaments, regardless of what the explanation was. I would walk. Now not everyone is into tournaments, but that is an individual decision, when a school does not participate, that is a red flag. What do they have to hide? Well, you saw what they want to hide.
 
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LT2002

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clapping_tiger said:
This is usually the case from what I have seen. So once I heard/read the words we do not participate in tournaments, regardless of what the explanation was. I would walk. Now not everyone is into tournaments, but that is an individual decision, when a school does not participate, that is a red flag. What do they have to hide? Well, you saw what they want to hide.
Schools can decide to not participate in tournaments, but when you are required as an instructor to tell your students that THEY are not allowed to compete in a tournament under their own free will - and if the student does participate - they risk being asked to study a different style, things are going a little too far.

Sure, you'll hear the Sanchin-Ryu defense of "tournaments are bad", "They incourage competition and we don't", "Tournements are rigged", "Tournements officials don't understand our style therefore you will not be judged properly", "Our techiques are taught for defense not pulled/points as other styles", "Tournaments create a false sense of 'goodness' or 'badness' depending upon your ranking and therefore do not properly reflect if/when a student understands a technique".
Some of the above comments are true. However, not for every tournament nor for everyone.

Someone with little self=esteem can become completely lost if they lose in a tournement. On the other hand, if Sanchin-Ryu is Open-minded - why not see what else is out there and experience what your opponent may know (you know to improve the learning process)....oh that's right, the average Sanchin-Ryu student can't handle it, so ALL students are 'protected' from outside knowledge ;)
 

punisher73

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The kids were led by the younger 'masters' and surely there was more energy but these guys are not 6th degree level mindsets.
What "mindset" is this? What specific characteristics is this mindset? I notice it went from questioning their skill to not having a mindset that should be required.

The head guy Dearman, he seems ok, but he has a bunch of groupies following him. Most of the people are young - probably 30 or younger and these are their "Master-Level" people. The older students (some in their 40's and 50's) are their colored belt students. They must run them off before they become a black belt.
You mean his friends that talk to him? There were 3 masters that were under 30 and two of them were his sons (out of approx. 20 masters). Please don't lie to make stuff fit into your agenda that you had before you went.

The black belts were locked away in another room, so the only way to see them was to walk up to the windows - very few looked like they had control.
They were in the room for the very first workout. The 2nd workout the doors were open and several people were there watching. They would have been sweating because a large portion of that class was sparring. For the last workout that day, the blackbelts were in the main room out in the open for all to see.

These people don't compete in tournements - not because their technique is 'deadly' but because they suck.
You will never hear CGM Dearman say that the reason we don't compete in tournaments is because the technique is too "deadly", nor will you hear that from the Chief Instructor who used to compete in tournaments before switching to Sanchinryu.

"They" wouldn't last in any serious karate tournament

....ok what is the percentage of people who compete in serious karate tournaments? More to the point how many serious tournaments have you been in and won? Seriously, I would like to know since this is the criteria you are judging people on.

The kid looks like he is good, but he is not. His technique wouldn't stand up if someone confronted him. Against the air - he looks great.
What specifically led you to this decision? Specific examples would be nice.

Can a young person be a good 'Master' and lead a bunch of low-IQ 60 year old adults
I must have missed that class, the whole class was full of retarded people? Since anything under an IQ of 70 is severely learning disabled. Must be a shock to for all the professionals we have such as LEO's, Lawyers, Doctors, Engineers. Many other are heads of their department at work as well. Pretty good for a group of retarded people.

But good instructors in school or in Martial Arts ususally are very well rounded and have experienced much besides being a genius (ability to process ideas and facts effciently). These kids have not - you can see it from their actions!
Again, what actions are these with concrete examples?
----

Shidan: You went there with a specific agenda and didn't once go to the source and talk to CGM Dearman (who by the way would have talked with you) and asked him about your concerns directly. That alone speaks volumes to me about your actual intentions. What rank is your nephew out of curiousity?
Sanchinryu is exactly what you put into it. CGM Dearman has made it accessible for everyone. There are some who train in it very intensely and would hold their own in a tournament if they chose to. There are others who put in what they want and fit it into their lifestyle. Yes, there are older people who join it because of physical limitations that prohibit them from studying something else. Should a martial art be limited to the physically talented alone, or should we have people also who love what they do and can help someone else learn and share their information.

The funny thing is you won't hear CGM Dearman badmouth another style. He says that all styles are good and it's up to the pracitioner what they do with it.
 
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Shidan

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punisher73 said:
What "mindset" is this? What specific characteristics is this mindset? I notice it went from questioning their skill to not having a mindset that should be required.
Just going by what I saw. Bunch of goof-offs. It appeared to be more about goofing off than learning good technique.


punshier73 said:
You mean his friends that talk to him? There were 3 masters that were under 30 and two of them were his sons (out of approx. 20 masters). Please don't lie to make stuff fit into your agenda that you had before you went.
Again, just going by what I saw. Red belts = masters in your style right? Lots of young people wearing red. If they are over 30, maybe 31 or 32 years old, but not much more.
....

punisher73 said:
You will never hear CGM Dearman say that the reason we don't compete in tournaments is because the technique is too "deadly", nor will you hear that from the Chief Instructor who used to compete in tournaments before switching to Sanchinryu.
So why not compete or allow the students to compete in local tournments if they want too??

As far as I go, I have been in about 20 or so tournments in my day my best was 3rd. Do I suck? Maybe, but I only competed during my first two years - so I wasn't limited with technique I had, but I did the katas, and demos that I could. Sparring, I am good, but I am short. Tournements this isn't an advantage. The tall people just jump and hit you in the head for points and I couldn't out reach them. No big deal, just what it was.


punisher73 said:
I must have missed that class, the whole class was full of retarded people? Since anything under an IQ of 70 is severely learning disabled. Must be a shock to for all the professionals we have such as LEO's, Lawyers, Doctors, Engineers. Many other are heads of their department at work as well. Pretty good for a group of retarded people.
This wasn't a comment about your style per se, it was a comment that young people can be named masters for a bunch of people who are old and maybe not as able. If it fits you guys, great. If it doesn't, fine. It was a comment in discussion with MichiganTKD or Still Learning.

punisher73 said:
Shidan: You went there with a specific agenda and didn't once go to the source and talk to CGM Dearman .....

Sanchinryu is exactly what you put into it........

The funny thing is you won't hear CGM Dearman badmouth another style. He says that all styles are good and it's up to the pracitioner what they do with it.
Do you know if I spoke with your leader? Never said I didn't. He is a crafty fella with the words that one...

He may not, but it doesn't mean others in your style don't! Your instructors are a reflection of him, so what comes out of their mouths they likely heard from him at some point!

You have no idea why I went there and your incinuation is incorrect. I went to see for myself what my brother thinks is a complete waste of time. His kid is having fun. My comments are based upon what I witnessed.

If you have people in the style who put forth a lot of effort into the physical, perhaps they were not at that event or I missed them. If physical ability isn't important, what are you people working on? There were a fair number of people who look a little shy on confidence - but just my opinion ;)

Any you'll likely want an example of how I judge lack of confidence. Ok, well, very few people can make eye contact - usually a sign of insecurity, but not always. If you bump into someone and say "oh excuse, me" (and yes it was a test with three people), they just put their head down and either mumbled, one say 'Oh' and one just continued walking. It's not like people were set up to be run into, but there are a lot of people trying to filter between the doorways from the hallway to the venue - and it made for a nice way to evaluate people.

Punisher73, you can disagree with me and defend your style. I mean you no disrespect. I had no idea what it was all about until I saw it and I was available this weekend so I thought I'd drive up and see. If you like -more power to you. Its a goofy style in my opinion, and with 200 people there - it likely works for a fair number of those folks too.

Just reporting what I saw and what I learned from the other by-standers. Watching your people work on different movements - there is very little chance any of them would make it in any tournament.

For the record, if you have been offended by my comments - I apologize to you. However, it is based upon my experience of what I saw, others will just need to see it for themselves.
 
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LT2002

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Punisher73,

It is great you express such loyalty to this group. You have been a part of it for a long time so either you really do like it or you've been there so long you are unable to start something new.

Shidan is entitled to his opinion and to an outsider his comments are not new. It is a strange group. There are not that many LEO's and doctors in the bunch. Even if there were, does this add crediabitlity to the style? I'd say no. The professional background of participants in a martial arts style has little baring on the validity of the group.

Probably every martial arts group at one time or another can say they have had or currently do have someone in Law Enforcement in their group. LEO's are attracted to physcial training and practicing moves in a safe/controlled environment.

I've been to past workshops and it can easily look like a disorganized mess to someone on the outside. I attended one Holidome event when it first started and it is a really poor environment for a workout if you want it to look like there is any controll. The two areas to workout in do not adequately support the whole group. You are in the main 'holidome' area and the sound is very, very poor, and the air is too humid for a good workout. Or you get shoved into the conference room, where the lighting is marginal, sound is ok if the doors are closed - but some idiot always needs to open the doors letting the smoke and cold air in (smoke was coming from Dearman's wife who was smoking in the hallway selling T-shirts, cold air from the exit that was nearby). It was a really bad enviroment.

So, for Shidan to see this group in a mediocre environment, the few good people who do workout are at a disadvantage if they infact even showed up. ('cause not everyone attends these events). But he saw what he saw, can't really fault him for that!
 

The Kai

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"Yes, there are older people who join it because of physical limitations that prohibit them from studying something else."

It's quoates like this that make me wonder, How easy is the system, what do they cut out? Do they advertise as a style for those who don't want to put to much into it.......
Todd
 
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LT2002

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The Kai said:
"Yes, there are older people who join it because of physical limitations that prohibit them from studying something else."

It's quoates like this that make me wonder, How easy is the system, what do they cut out? Do they advertise as a style for those who don't want to put to much into it.......
Todd
Very easy. What is cut out is any real type of conditioning. You'll need to do that on your own.

Remember, this is a one hour once a week workout. Not much can happen in this little time. If you come in with too much ability, you will be not be promoted as quickly either. If you as a Sensei promote someone who is talented, you will have a Master (if not the big man himself) tell you that your student 'isn't ready' for Sho-dan consideration. I have had this happen a couple times, and ended up losing the students to other styles.

A punch is still a punch and a kick is used as an efficient strike (start low and chop the tree - knee, or pelvic strikes most common, can strike the head if necessary after the opponent is dropped).

Sweeps aren't usually shown, but you can 'star-step' (step and take ground or opponents stance or change angle of attack as necessary) Star-stepping is easier on the hip joints for those with medical conditions, so it is an effective teaching tool. But since the students only work with you about an hour a week, they don't abuse their joints. On the downside, they only work with you an hour a week and few every practice at home to improve - but you'll cover the same stuff the next week so at least people who aren't used to working on things - get some exposure and if attacked, can likely do something. This IS good.

No board breaking, no brick breaking, no punching bags, no props/tools - and this can be good because people who are insecure about what they know can get hurt and this will hinder their training more than if they NEVER tried to break a board. Unfortunately, there are great benefits and skills honed when one is able to break boards, so this just needs to be encouraged by the Sensei. (hopefully you get a competent Sensei).
 
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