Common expressions that are wrong....

[Kung Fu Wang]

"You need to train against a resisting opponent".

If you

- lie down on the ground, there is no way that your opponent can develop any throwing skill on you.
- run faster than your opponent, there is no way that your opponent can develop any striking skill on you.

 

[GojuTommy]

It is not a fair comparison.
Military in a defensive position are sometimes as far as miles away from the enemy and have had days or weeks or months of intel.
An officer on a traffic stop is usually the first source of intel. A bullet leaving the chamber travels much faster than the human mind can process.

I can be miles away but when a rocket has a 10mile range, miles doesn’t mean much

 

[tkdroamer]

I can be miles away but when a rocket has a 10mile range, miles doesn’t mean much

What does that have to do with a bullet/pistol/longarm?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Reminder to all members:

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----
Gerry Seymour
MartialTalk Moderator
@Gerry Seymour

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"You need to train against a resisting opponent".

If you

- lie down on the ground, there is no way that your opponent can develop any throwing skill on you.
- run faster than your opponent, there is no way that your opponent can develop any striking skill on you.

Neither of which is what is meant by "a resisting opponent".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Neither of which is what is meant by "a resisting opponent".

In another thread I argued that resisting have to be "force against force". Someone suggested that yield, escape, avoid. run away can also be considered as resisting.

 

[GojuTommy]

What does that have to do with a bullet/pistol/longarm?

The point I was making that I’ve had boats with autocannons and MLRS from a unit of known fanatics that belonged to a nation that regularly chants ‘death to America’ charging at me and my ship, or the carrier. If I had reacted the same way police in America react to people with cell phones, or people just touching their waist I would have likely caused a war.

I didn’t shoot because I was not 100% sure they were a legitimate threat. I don’t really see why the police cannot do the same.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In another thread I argued that resisting have to be "force against force". Someone suggested that yield, escape, avoid. run away can also be considered as resisting.

If we are talking about resistive training, running away isn’t a resisting partner. Laying down to avoid a throw you’re supposed to practice isn’t, either, in most cases. Resistance should match some intent. An “attacker” laying down or running away is no longer an attacker, for instance.

 

[GojuTommy]

In another thread I argued that resisting have to be "force against force". Someone suggested that yield, escape, avoid. run away can also be considered as resisting.

When it comes to security or police personnel yes, that can be true. Just not in civilian context.

 

[Steve]

When it comes to security or police personnel yes, that can be true. Just not in civilian context.

Context matters for sure. Protecting oneself from a police officer is a very different thing. There was a whole thread on that at one time. many of the actions that would wise in any other situation will put you in more danger with a cop.

 

[Jared Traveler]

"It's not the style, it's the student."

I don't agree, the style is just one factor, but it's a pretty important factor.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"No pain, no gain".

I don't agree. You may have too much pain and quit forever. You train for fun. You don't train for pain.

 

[GojuTommy]

"It's not the style, it's the student."

I don't agree, the style is just one factor, but it's a pretty important factor.

Yep, that’s just an excuse for cowardly ‘masters’ to hide behind when someone has the cojones to test their style against others and lose. Often it’s less the style or the student’s fault (assuming it’s a legitimate style) than it is the instructor’s and their training methods’ fault.

 

[GojuTommy]

“If it’s not in the UFC/common in the UFC it’s not worth training.”

Most people attempting to make a full time career in combat sports will gravitate to the styles most common or well established in combat sports heavily skewing the results.

 

[GojuTommy]

"It's not the style, it's the student."

I don't agree, the style is just one factor, but it's a pretty important factor.

I’d say style is much less important than training methods.

I believe it’s tomiki aikido that is a good example of this. The overwhelming majority of aikido is trained only with compliant opponents/partners.
Meanwhile tomiki has has created a method of competition resulting in live training and matches. It looks a lot more like judo than ‘aikido’ but they’ve made it work.

So in a sense it’s not wrong it is mostly about ‘the student’ just the mor senior students who now teach, and how they teach.

 

[drop bear]

I’d say style is much less important than training methods.

I believe it’s tomiki aikido that is a good example of this. The overwhelming majority of aikido is trained only with compliant opponents/partners.
Meanwhile tomiki has has created a method of competition resulting in live training and matches. It looks a lot more like judo than ‘aikido’ but they’ve made it work.

So in a sense it’s not wrong it is mostly about ‘the student’ just the mor senior students who now teach, and how they teach.

But they have changed the style.

I mean if your training looks nothing like their training then you are not training the same thing.

Which leads me to. "But machida makes karate work."

 

[MadMartigan]

'Almost every fight ends up on the ground'.
- (every bjj guy ever)

True, and only a fool wouldn't prepare for that eventuality... but even more fights start standing up first... just sayin'

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Everybody has plans until they get hit for the first time".

I don't agree. Without plan, you may get hit much earlier.

I also agree. Your plan have no usage after you are dead.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But they have changed the style.

I mean if your training looks nothing like their training then you are not training the same thing.

Which leads me to. "But machida makes karate work."

To me, any aiki art is about training aiki principles - especially aiki body principles. Tomiki does that. So they changed the system (how it’s trained), but did that change the style. I’ve heard good arguments in both directions on that, and it seems mostly to hinge on how “style” is defined.

 

[Oily Dragon]

"It's not the style, it's the student."

I don't agree, the style is just one factor, but it's a pretty important factor.

You know this is another one of those tricky ones.

What if you learned a style from a student who became a poor teacher?

Then it wouldn't matter if the old student was ever good or bad at it, what they passed on was sub par, and the new student now suffers.

So it's the art...and the student.

And it's not the art, and not the student.

Some Bodhidharma-ish wisdom .