Common expressions that are wrong....

[Oily Dragon]

But they have changed the style.

I mean if your training looks nothing like their training then you are not training the same thing.

Which leads me to. "But machida makes karate work."

I don't know, that famous front Crane kick he did, the one that made Joe Rogan howl, is identical to several CMA and karate styles.

My take? Because it works, like Miyagi said. "If do right, no can defense".

 

[drop bear]

I don't know, that famous front Crane kick he did, the one that made Joe Rogan howl, is identical to several CMA and karate styles.

My take? Because it works, like Miyagi said. "If do right, no can defense".

I bet you it isn’t identical.

 

[Steve]

'Almost every fight ends up on the ground'.
- (every bjj guy ever)

True, and only a fool wouldn't prepare for that eventuality... but even more fights start standing up first... just sayin'

Just want to point out that you start off saying it’s true. 😉

 

[Steve]

You know this is another one of those tricky ones.

What if you learned a style from a student who became a poor teacher?

Then it wouldn't matter if the old student was ever good or bad at it, what they passed on was sub par, and the new student now suffers.

So it's the art...and the student.

And it's not the art, and not the student.

Some Bodhidharma-ish wisdom .

A little of both, then. There are some self defense experts who have very little actual experience with the things they teach. It’s not reasonable to expect a student of theirs to exceed the instructor of neither of them really knows what they’re talking about. There’s a person who used to post here a lot and I always have him in mind as the quintessential example of this.

 

[GojuTommy]

But they have changed the style.

I mean if your training looks nothing like their training then you are not training the same thing.

Which leads me to. "But machida makes karate work."

So at what point does changing things make a new style?
Did gogen yamaguchi stop training goju ryu when he made his changes?

Did funakoshi stop training and teaching karate when he made his changes?

Styles of martial arts were constantly changing before the ‘modern era’ so why does changes to style suddenly equate to different styles now?

 

[GojuTommy]

I bet you it isn’t identical.

Nothing is identical to what people were doing 100 or 150 years ago though…
But there are old (I forget the Japanese term for them) that have the mai tobi geri in them. I’ve never seen anyone do them identically so I doubt he did his identically to how Miyagi or toguchi would have, but it was still the same thing.

 

[GojuTommy]

A little of both, then. There are some self defense experts who have very little actual experience with the things they teach. It’s not reasonable to expect a student of theirs to exceed the instructor of neither of them really knows what they’re talking about. There’s a person who used to post here a lot and I always have him in mind as the quintessential example of this.

Exactly.
No one would argue boxing is ineffective, so in that sense if someone has been training boxing for a year and gets their buttkicked in the ring all the time it’s probably the student, but I don’t believe there’s a single ‘pure’ XMA person who can actually fight in any sense of the word.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

"Boards don't hit back."

This is true but misleading. It implies that training breaking techniques isn't valuable because it doesn't include defensive techniques. Push-ups don't include defensive techniques either. Are push-ups without value?

Worse, this has become a mantra for those who wish to denigrate the training others do.

Will breaking teach you to fight? No. Breaking isn't for that. Breaking teaches body mechanics for the application of power, as well as providing the occasional psychological lift in terms of seeing just how powerful the human body can be, among other attributes.

No, boards (and bricks, etc) do not hit back. They're not supposed to. That's not what they are for.

Weird coincidence.

 

[drop bear]

So at what point does changing things make a new style?
Did gogen yamaguchi stop training goju ryu when he made his changes?

Did funakoshi stop training and teaching karate when he made his changes?

Styles of martial arts were constantly changing before the ‘modern era’ so why does changes to style suddenly equate to different styles now?

Definitely at the point that someone has changed the training methods.

That is effectively what makes the style in the first place.

And I don't know who those people are so.....

Probably?

 

[drop bear]

Nothing is identical to what people were doing 100 or 150 years ago though…
But there are old (I forget the Japanese term for them) that have the mai tobi geri in them. I’ve never seen anyone do them identically so I doubt he did his identically to how Miyagi or toguchi would have, but it was still the same thing.

Not even close to the same thing.

Machida could land that kick on elite fighters. Most people can't.

That isn't chance. Machida is doing something different.

 

[GojuTommy]

Not even close to the same thing.

Machida could land that kick on elite fighters. Most people can't.

That isn't chance. Machida is doing something different.

Yes he trained it. He’s a professional fighter, most people are not.
What he can do and what most people can do are completely irrelevant.

So what’s boxing? What as trained in the 1800s? Or is what’s trained now boxing? The training and competition methodologies are very different.

Things change and evolve over time that evolution or change doesn’t mean it a whole new style.

 

[GojuTommy]

Just remembered that stupid Bruce lee quote

I don’t fear the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks 1 time but the man who has practiced 1 kick 10,000 times.

Well if you only know one kick you’re a 1 trick pony, it’s not to hard to avoid that 1 kick. If you try to branch out on the fly to other kicks you’ll likely put yourself into a really bad position.

 

[drop bear]

Yes he trained it. He’s a professional fighter, most people are not.
What he can do and what most people can do are completely irrelevant.

So what’s boxing? What as trained in the 1800s? Or is what’s trained now boxing? The training and competition methodologies are very different.

Things change and evolve over time that evolution or change doesn’t mean it a whole new style.

Well boxing did change over time and they now call the 1800's version pugilism.

So yeah. Different styles.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just remembered that stupid Bruce lee quote

I don’t fear the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks 1 time but the man who has practiced 1 kick 10,000 times.

Well if you only know one kick you’re a 1 trick pony, it’s not to hard to avoid that 1 kick. If you try to branch out on the fly to other kicks you’ll likely put yourself into a really bad position.

Bruce Lee was talking about "door guarding" technique. The door guarding technique is like a general. A general has many soldiers around him.

Those soldiers will

- recover the mistake that a general may make.
- create the opportunity for the general.
- protect the general if the general is in dangerous.

For example, a head lock can be your general (door guarding technique). When you apply it, your opponent's free arm may wrap around your waist and pull you down. You have to change your head lock into over hook to counter your opponent's waist wrap.

Also when your oponent tries to pull your down, you also need to use your leg to spring your opponent's leg from a horse stance into a bow-arrow stance. (your opponent can't pull you back down if he is in bow-arrow stance)

So far, the head lock general has soldiers such as:

- over hook,
- leg spring,
- ...

It can have many many more.

In other words, in order for you to develop a "door guarding technique", you also need to develop many other techniques.

Here is an example that if your single leg fail, you can follow up with a foot sweep. So when you develop single leg, you also need to develop foot sweep.

 

[GojuTommy]

Well boxing did change over time and they now call the 1800's version pugilism.

So yeah. Different styles.

And people call modern boxing pugilism too. So not so much.

Pugilism and boxing are the same thing.

Definition of PUGILISM

boxing… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Pugilism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Do we need more sources?

 

[drop bear]

And people call modern boxing pugilism too. So not so much.

Pugilism and boxing are the same thing.

Definition of PUGILISM

boxing… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Pugilism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Do we need more sources?

That's cool I will use yours.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I bet you it isn’t identical.

I'd win that bet. That kick is so ingrained in southern Asian kicking it has many names, and is super effective Crane kick.

It's not Shadeless, like the Mo Ying, but the double hand feint is unmistakable Duk Gerk Fei Hok. It's also in Muay Boran, Lethwei, and others.

The Karate Kid version is just a little dramatic for the climax of the movie, the actual kick and training drills are very practical. It gets used a lot in competition, I've even seen people DQ'd for using it and accidentally hitting the groin (super effective with or without a cup).

It does take a lot of practice to get it right though. I recommend plum flower poles.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Well boxing did change over time and they now call the 1800's version pugilism.

So yeah. Different styles.

I really didn't like that video, honestly. Not your fault.

 

[drop bear]

I really didn't like that video, honestly. Not your fault.

It was just an example that it exists.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You know this is another one of those tricky ones.

What if you learned a style from a student who became a poor teacher?

Then it wouldn't matter if the old student was ever good or bad at it, what they passed on was sub par, and the new student now suffers.

So it's the art...and the student.

And it's not the art, and not the student.

Some Bodhidharma-ish wisdom .

I'd add a third component, which is really getting back to part of what you both were saying in the post you replied to and your reply, I think. It's the student, the teacher, and the art. The latter two comprise "the system" (a combination of the style and the training methods - which overlap but aren't the same thing).

Any decent art - taught with good training methods - can help most folks get pretty good, dependent upon their effort and personal limitations. A well-designed art can be taught with poor training methods and will be less useful that way than a decently-designed art with better training methods. So two different instructors, teaching the same art with different systems, can produce very different results with similar students. Of course, there are arts where the delivery method has become part of the culture of that art. BJJ adopted an open model with lots of resistance. Aikido adopted a closed model with minimal (or no, in many cases) resistance. Each of those choices has had a big impact on the overall art.