Claims on the Internet.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by akja
So when is EVERYBODY ELSE going to scan their certificates and POST them!!! So many of you all have given advice on how to do it!!

See here.

 

[KennethKu]

originally by DAC

I have never questioned the authenticity of my certificates in these organizations nor have I ever followed up to check to see if their even registered.

I do know that I have been a student of TKD for over 20 years and in that time I have learned and taught alot.

I have been in competitions with american and even some korean students, I have always done well and can say that even if the kukkiwon does not recognize my rank and I was scrood (wich I highly doubt) I will still have all the knowledge I have learned over the years no-one can take that from me, and thats all that really matters to me.

Yeah riight! I might buy such a lame cover up from a 6 Gulp because the kid might not know any better.

A legitimate 6th dan in TKD has invested a lots of blood and sweat , and years, to get there and is an accomplished member of the organization. He would have 10 Gulp certificates and 6 Dan certificates from his organizations. He would have been tested by a team of MASTERS and even GRANDMASTERS in TKD. There is no chance in hell that he DOES NOT know how to spell Kukkiwon! There is no chance in hell that he does not know if his certificates worth cow chip or not. It makes NO FREAKING SENSE WHATSOEVER! (That is like Mike Tyson didn't not know if Don King is in the boxing promotion business!) The absurdity is sky high, unless, OF COURSE that he is NOT of KUKKIWON!

By the way, who promoted you to 6th Dan, DAC? You ought to know this one! He has to be at least an 8th DAN Master in TKD. I am sure Kukkiwon must has his John Hancock listed prominently. Unless, of course, the guy is NOT from Kukkiwon! Then it would all make sense.

Is there by any chance there is another Kukkiwon in the Middle East too, DAC?

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Seig
I have not finished sifting all the way through this yet, so, if I now say something that has already been said, forgive me. I am going to slightly misquote Ed Parker here, for the reason that i do not have the exact text here in front of me. But Mr. Parker said that each person's style is his own, what one learns is a system

Yup

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Seig
Not a completely true or accurate statement. American KeNpo is American. It was founded by Mr. Ed Parker, Sr. American Kenpo is NOT based on Japanese arts, it has more of a Chinese leaning. Don't get me wrong, I am not stating that there is no Japanese heritage, it is not solely based on Japanese arts. Regardless, Mr. Parker was recognized by both Japanese and Chinese masters.

Isn't kenpo and kempo the same thing? From my understanding, it is just a different translation from kanji to English. Another word is sempai and senpai, which pretty much mean the same thing. The only difference I could think of is with organization. When talking about Ed Parker, Kenpo should be used, and that's my mistake. Like wing chun vs. wing tsun.

I'm not saying that Kenpo is just Japanese. Ed Parker did a lot of studying with Chinese systems. However, the term American kenpo karate did not come out of the blue.

Why the name American kenpo karate? Kenpo was a mother art in Okinawa, and most Okinawans referred to karate as kenpo. "Karate is a form of kenpo," Parker explains. "Kenpo is what your last name is to your first."

Like I said before, I do not deny Chinese influence. Look at the logo, even that has Chinese influence.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by arnisador
See here.

You should grow a mullet! You'd look good in one!

 

[A.R.K.]

WHHhhhoooooosssshhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

Whats that noise?

It's the wind blowing through a dead horse's skull! :rofl:

Lets go about it this way as an illustration, or perhaps a question...

Mr. Smith is in a non-Korean country and he is non-Korean. He is taking TKD classes and has reached the point where Sensei Jones feels Mr. Smith is ready to test for his 1st degree black belt. Sensei Jones [or whatever the Korean word for instructor is] is a registered member of the Kukkiwon, lets say he's at 4th Dan.

Mr. Smith tests and passes wonderfully.

*Can Sensei Jones present him with a 'school' black belt alone?
*Does Mr. Smith HAVE to join the Kukkiwon for their okey dokey?
*Can Mr. Smith go with a different non-Kukkiwon organization if he so chooses?
*Can Mr. Smith choose to have no affiliation with anyone beyond his school if he chooses?
*What does the Kukkiwon charge for their piece of paper if Mr. Smith would like it?
*If Mr. Smith decides to no be affiliated with any particular organization, or no organization does that affect the validity of his 1st degree black belt in any way?

This is just as an exampe. Thank you for your considered inputs.
:asian:

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by A.R.K.

*Can SB Jones present him with a 'school' black belt alone?
*Does Mr. Smith HAVE to join the Kukkiwon for their okey dokey?
*Can Mr. Smith go with a different non-Kukkiwon organization if he so chooses?
*Can Mr. Smith choose to have no affiliation with anyone beyond his school if he chooses?
*What does the Kukkiwon charge for their piece of paper if Mr. Smith would like it?
*If Mr. Smith decides to no be affiliated with any particular organization, or no organization does that affect the validity of his 1st degree black belt in any way?

Just going in order on the ones I know...

Quite a few schools do offer BB's inside the school only. (Which is usually just a scam to pump the prospects for additional cash) Kinda pointless since a BB from a larger body means more places to train with minimal headaches in the future etc...

Mr Smith could have no additional affiliations if he so wanted.

If he did decide to no longer be affiliated with any other organizations, further advancement would be rather iffy.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
WHHhhhoooooosssshhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

Whats that noise?

It's the wind blowing through a dead horse's skull! :rofl:

Lets go about it this way as an illustration, or perhaps a question...

Mr. Smith is in a non-Korean country and he is non-Korean. He is taking TKD classes and has reached the point where Sensei Jones feels Mr. Smith is ready to test for his 1st degree black belt. Sensei Jones [or whatever the Korean word for instructor is] is a registered member of the Kukkiwon, lets say he's at 4th Dan.

Mr. Smith tests and passes wonderfully.

*Can Sensei Jones present him with a 'school' black belt alone?
*Does Mr. Smith HAVE to join the Kukkiwon for their okey dokey?
*Can Mr. Smith go with a different non-Kukkiwon organization if he so chooses?
*Can Mr. Smith choose to have no affiliation with anyone beyond his school if he chooses?
*What does the Kukkiwon charge for their piece of paper if Mr. Smith would like it?
*If Mr. Smith decides to no be affiliated with any particular organization, or no organization does that affect the validity of his 1st degree black belt in any way?

This is just as an exampe. Thank you for your considered inputs.
:asian:

It all boils down to who sanctions the rank. Many reasons that it isn't wise to go that route.

First of all, if Jones is a registered member of Kukkiwon, then why what's the trouble of getting a dan certificate from Kukkiwon? There's really no extra hassle really, and it will be worth it. I don't understand that type of thinking. Jones is a registered 4th dan, and for something as small as a 1st dan, a 4th degree does have the power to request Kukkiwon to promote someone to 1st dan. It's not that hard. Kukkiwon never says you're ready to test... That's not their purpose. It's the instructor that tells when they're ready, and that's AFTER, not BEFORE they meet all the requirements that Kukkiwon has, that's all. If you're so eager to get a 1st dan at age 8, then you shouldn't worry about self-defense and go make your own organization and buy a belt off the internet.

Kukkiwon charges for their piece of paper? No, they don't charge for the certificate, because it is earned. You pay the instructor/school for testing fees and Kukkiwon for basic fees for all the data input, etc., kinda like a "handling" charge. It's nothing really, maybe a bit over $100 at the most including everything (and the belt which is $20 itself) for a 1st dan. But you never pay for a piece of paper.

If Mr. Smith decides not to belong to any organization, or if his belt is not internationally accepted as the one and true original, then he might as well just get a white belt and dye it black. First of all, if he is not in any organization, then there is no standard. No standard means it's worthless. Plus, if Smith decided to train at another TKD school, and his belt is not recognized by a reputable source, then they might as well just give a white belt.

Remember, STANDARDS. That's how rank works, with standards. You just can't say you're a black belt when there's nobody to compare to. One of the biggest reasons is that people can just manipulate their standards for the easy way out.

And I don't see how being Korean or non-Korean and what country you are residing in currently has ANY relevence to the topic. It is true that Koreans have higher standards for black belts... The reason is their location... You're not that far away from Kukkiwon no matter where you are in South Korea and you test in front of the grandmasters, not some fraud, for 6th dan and up. It's much more convenient than say when you're in the US, where you don't have to test in front of the Korean council until 8th and 9th dan. Plus, until about ten years ago, the society had a lot of corporal punishment, and the instructors had no remorse for running you out.

But one is not restricted to when one can test, or what rank you can achieve based on ethnicity and nationality and residency. Everyone has to meet the same basic requirements, and that's what makes it a STANDARD.

Anyone can get a 1st dan, but if you receive the belt because of Smith alone

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Marginal
Just going in order on the ones I know...

Quite a few schools do offer BB's inside the school only. (Which is usually just a scam to pump the prospects for additional cash) Kinda pointless since a BB from a larger body means more places to train with minimal headaches in the future etc...

Mr Smith could have no additional affiliations if he so wanted.

If he did decide to no longer be affiliated with any other organizations, further advancement would be rather iffy.

exactly


And if Jones really was a Kukkiwon 4th dan, then it would be no trouble of just getting the 1st dan certificate. Hell, these days, one can get a 1st dan certificate from Kukkiwon in two or three years, training two days a week.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
We are neither equal when born nor equal in death. We are all born with different abilities, talents, and tendencies. We all die leaving behind lives of varying profundity, the legacies of which are profoundly different in character.

Yes "we were" and "will be" equal. Physical abilities have nothing to do with it. We are all "differant" but we are all "one!"

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by arnisador
See here.

You are not only a man with an objective opinion but a man with an impressive looking cert., seriously it is beautiful!:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Arnisador so does not look the way I had pictured him...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
*Can Sensei Jones present him with a 'school' black belt alone?

Sure, why not.

*Does Mr. Smith HAVE to join the Kukkiwon for their okey dokey?

Of course. If he wants the approval and authorization of that organization, if he wants them to recognize his rank, then he needs to join them. Simple, huh?

*Can Mr. Smith go with a different non-Kukkiwon organization if he so chooses?

Sure. But he doesn't have any right to expect that they will recognize his achievements in his old school. He could very well expect to start out wearing a white belt again... That shouldn't matter, but to some folks it does.

*Can Mr. Smith choose to have no affiliation with anyone beyond his school if he chooses?

Sure, why not. But his students will be his alone, and if they attempt to train at any other school, they are going to run the risk of being accepted as rank beginners... If that is not an issue, then no worries. If it is, then... :idunno:

*What does the Kukkiwon charge for their piece of paper if Mr. Smith would like it?

Too much, if the thread in the TKD forum is any example... They have been talking about having to pay up to $500 for their black belt test, which gets them a certificate, a belt with their name embroidered in Korean and English, and a spiffy membership card... All for the low, low price of 5 Benjamins...

*If Mr. Smith decides to no be affiliated with any particular organization, or no organization does that affect the validity of his 1st degree black belt in any way?

No, but nobody has to acknowledge that it means squat, either. If he is presenting himself as a TKD BB, there are typically certain standards (however low) of performance to rate that grade. Without some form of verification of having met those standards (beyond his unaffiliated teacher saying he did), folks are going to question him. That is when his personal skill will have to step in and bolster his claims.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
Yes "we were" and "will be" equal. Physical abilities have nothing to do with it. We are all "differant" but we are all "one!"

I agree with both you and Phil.

I do not agree with the Marxist views on equality... We are not equal in that way, each person is unique. That's why we have so many martial arts styles, why some people get 1600 SAT scores, why some people get to play in professional sports, etc.

However, we are all equal in worth. One cannot say that they are "better" than others. People may be more influential than others, but everyone is equal in worth, and should be able to get the same rights... That is until they do something like break the law.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Sure, why not.



Of course. If he wants the approval and authorization of that organization, if he wants them to recognize his rank, then he needs to join them. Simple, huh?



Sure. But he doesn't have any right to expect that they will recognize his achievements in his old school. He could very well expect to start out wearing a white belt again... That shouldn't matter, but to some folks it does.



Sure, why not. But his students will be his alone, and if they attempt to train at any other school, they are going to run the risk of being accepted as rank beginners... If that is not an issue, then no worries. If it is, then... :idunno:



Too much, if the thread in the TKD forum is any example... They have been talking about having to pay up to $500 for their black belt test, which gets them a certificate, a belt with their name embroidered in Korean and English, and a spiffy membership card... All for the low, low price of 5 Benjamins...



No, but nobody has to acknowledge that it means squat, either. If he is presenting himself as a TKD BB, there are typically certain standards (however low) of performance to rate that grade. Without some form of verification of having met those standards (beyond his unaffiliated teacher saying he did), folks are going to question him. That is when his personal skill will have to step in and bolster his claims.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

The $500 is extra charges that the school tags on.

Here is the official stance from Kukkiwon

Article 13 : Test Uniforms

Applicants for the examination shall wear the following during the promotion test
1) Official Dobok
2) Protectors(Trunk protectors, Headgear, Groin guard)


Article 14 : Registration Fees

1) Registration fees which are required to maintain the Dan records and issuance of Dan/Poom
certificates will be fixed separately.

2) Exemption or reduction of the registration fees will be allowed in the following cases, however,
it should be approved by the president of Kukkiwon through a written report by the president of
Member National Association.
(1) Due to a poor economy
(2) When political support is required
(3) Disaster by calamity
(4) Others, to be determined case by case

3) One must pay all previous Dan fees if jumping a Dan is allowed.

When I got my 1st dan, it was only a $100 fee. Inflation today probably makes it to around $120 at most. And what's this jumping dan thing 3), that makes me go ick.

 

[MartialArtist]

Heh, I found out the only ways you can beat the age requirements on dan certification is...


1. Winner of Olympic Games 100%
2. Winner of world level championships sponsored by WTF 80%
3. Winner of continental level championships approved by WTF 60%
4. One who received a medal from the president of the country for his devotion for development of Taekwondo 50%


http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/simsa_eng9.asp?div=5

But they're easy to verify enough

 

[Kirk]

My school doesn't have any organization authorizing or recording
rank, so my purple belt, I guess isn't legit. I could care less ... I
love what I'm learning, and I have the uptmost respect for my
instructor.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kirk
My school doesn't have any organization authorizing or recording
rank, so my purple belt, I guess isn't legit. I could care less ... I
love what I'm learning, and I have the uptmost respect for my
instructor.

Kirk,

Wisdom, on this thread and subject? How dare you.


Seriously my rank means nothing the two that were named to be the successors until our GM get better, (* Well he unfortunately Died *) well one said I had no rank since he never saw me test, and the other said I would have to retest to make sure I deserved the rank. Well, all that being, I just left and am not a part of either of their own organizations or others. I consider myself a friend to many, yet I would have to say I have no rank. Oh Wait, in most Traditional FMA from the PI, (* Just as someone from there *) there is no rank given, you prove what you know. Hmmm, I guess I will just have to prove what I know, by either teaching good students or working with others. So, even though I have certificates signed by my GM, they mean nothing.

Do I respect my instructors and those I train with? YES! I guess we have more things in common their Kirk. I even extend that respect to others (* in most cases *) who train in martial arts.

Just my opinion from a non ranked - non associated person.

Have a Nice Day!

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Kirk
My school doesn't have any organization authorizing or recording
rank, so my purple belt, I guess isn't legit. I could care less ... I
love what I'm learning, and I have the uptmost respect for my
instructor.

That's not the point though.

The topic is more on the people who operate schools that say rank doesn't matter, but advertise outlandish ranks.

If you operate a school, and then get one black belt after another, and advertise it by saying you're a 9th degree, that's where the trouble comes in. Rank doesn't matter unless one advertises it.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Kirk,

Wisdom, on this thread and subject? How dare you.


Seriously my rank means nothing the two that were named to be the successors until our GM get better, (* Well he unfortunately Died *) well one said I had no rank since he never saw me test, and the other said I would have to retest to make sure I deserved the rank. Well, all that being, I just left and am not a part of either of their own organizations or others. I consider myself a friend to many, yet I would have to say I have no rank. Oh Wait, in most Traditional FMA from the PI, (* Just as someone from there *) there is no rank given, you prove what you know. Hmmm, I guess I will just have to prove what I know, by either teaching good students or working with others. So, even though I have certificates signed by my GM, they mean nothing.

Do I respect my instructors and those I train with? YES! I guess we have more things in common their Kirk. I even extend that respect to others (* in most cases *) who train in martial arts.

Just my opinion from a non ranked - non associated person.

Have a Nice Day!

The biggest problem comes into play with Japanese and Korean arts. People think dan rank is what makes a good teacher, but the average consumer doesn't know what Kukkiwon is, the average person looks to see who has the highest numbers and trains with them... Bad mistake. Busting frauds gets rid of outlandish claims on the internet, and busting outlandish rank claims on the internet busts frauds.