Christmas = Sex Magic!

[elder999]

I would argue fervently that it is not. The usage of the word "fantasy" describes the fact that all of the mishmash human mythology is nothingbut the Old Stuff Reborn. However, if you were to draw a line from the length of my breastbone to the tip of my finger and then quantify history of human religions within that matrix, it could all be scraped away with the scrape of a nail file.

Almost all Old Stuff Reborn-not all, though. In any case, taken in the right context, it's also (mostly) good stuff, which makes it real, if only to the believer, and not a fantasy, something the nonbeliever is almost continually unable to grasp. I'd be the last person to characterize your lack of belief in any way-do with it what you will. I don't even think (as smoe might, wrongly I might add) that it makes you a bad person or a good person who's damned to hell. Somehow, though, it's perfectly okay for you-who haven't one iota of knowledge about my religious beliefs and practices-to use the blanket characterization of "fantasy" for them...

Based upon a lifetime of experience with it, it sounds an awful lot like prejudice to me.......

 

[elder999]

Thanks. This is all new to me. I've stepped out of the circle in which I grew. The apple tree over yonder.

Oh God, not a Mending Wall reference! You evil bastard!!:wink1::lol:

 

[Makalakumu]

Almost all Old Stuff Reborn-not all, though. In any case, taken in the right context, it's also (mostly) good stuff, which makes it real, if only to the believer, and not a fantasy, something the nonbeliever is almost continually unable to grasp. I'd be the last person to characterize your lack of belief in any way-do with it what you will. I don't even think (as smoe might, wrongly I might add) that it makes you a bad person or a good person who's damned to hell. Somehow, though, it's perfectly okay for you-who haven't one iota of knowledge about my religious beliefs and practices-to use the blanket characterization of "fantasy" for them...

Based upon a lifetime of experience with it, it sounds an awful lot like prejudice to me.......

I see your point and I apologize for my offense. I can only offer that I did not mean it in an offending manner. I do find value in religious beliefs because I think that they reflect alot of what is inside us as humans. I do not, however, think that religious beliefs offer us a veiw on reality.

This, IMHO, was never their purpose. It wasn't the reason they evolved.

"Christmas" is just an extension of something that is important for humans. It is something that we need, no matter what form it comes.

 

[Cryozombie]

"Christmas" is just an extension of something that is important for humans. It is something that we need, no matter what form it comes.

I'd argue that Christmas... (ya know, CHRIST-MAS) is well, you know, a CHRISTIAN HOLDIAY about a celebration of Christs birthday, PERIOD. That other traditions had been introduced into what was designed as a celebration of his birth are largely irrelevant to the REASON for the holiday... and only applied or ignored as applicable by the practitioner...

What makea YOU feel that YOU have the right to tell us what we should do with our holiday???? Why should a Christian Holiday be stripped of Christ because you say so? I got one for you... the Celebration of Martin Luther King day is a celebration of a great american, so lets remove Martin Luther King from it and use that day to multi-culturally celebrate all great americans... or Better yet... Veterans Day is a celebration for all americans fighting men and women, we should just make it "Day" and celebrate all americans... Independance Day, can be World Day, and instead of celebrating our independance we can celebrate being joined with the world...

If ANY OF YOU are gonna make us take christ out of CHRISTmas and not be a ****ing hypocrite about it, you better take the Jewish out of Chanukah, The African Culture out of Kwanzaa, Islam out of Ramadan, Satanism out of your Birthday, etc etc etc.

And please, before you start up again, Let me remind you of my point above...

Its a CHRISTIAN HOLDIAY about a celebration of Christ's birthday, regardless of the fact that other traditions had been introduced into it.

Period.

 

[Makalakumu]

Its a CHRISTIAN HOLDIAY about a celebration of Christ's birthday, regardless of the fact that other traditions had been introduced into it.

This is demonstratably untrue and if you took the time to go and look at the video and even one peice of evidence, you'd discover this for yourself.

"Christmas" is an amalgamation of pagan traditions that stretch far back before the birth of Christ (if such a being even existed). Christianity was painted over these deeper traditions in an attempt by the Church to make their contrived religion more palatable to the pagans.

Thus, what you have been told is a Christian holiday truly is not.

Watch the video. Wade through the fundamentalist screed and pick the diamonds from the dross.

 

[elder999]

This is demonstratably untrue and if you took the time to go and look at the video and even one peice of evidence, you'd discover this for yourself.

It's not demonstrably untrue, any more than your use of "bastardized" was in any way accurate.

Let's say you have a pot, an old, but quite servicable cast-iron pot, only the wire handle-thingy for hanging it over the fire in the fireplace is gone, as well as the lid.

I come along, and say, "Geez, that's a nice pot, but it really needs a handle." So I make one for it. Then, sometime later, someone else does the same for the lid, only they give it a nice, shiny, stainless steel lid. Then someone else comes along, and plates your pot with stainless, so that its lid matches. Then a jeweler comes along and decides it really needs some stones set in it, and some gold quilding. After all that, it's not the same pot anymore, is it? And yet,it is.

Of course, if all this happened in your lifetime, and you were to die, and your kids inherit the pot, but can barely remember the jeweler, let alone all the other modifications, and they die and pass it on to their kids, and so on for about 45 generations or more, well-it becomes "Upnorthkyosa's Stainless Steel Pot with Jewels and Gold Plating," instead of just some crummy cast-iron pot. In fact, no one even knows about the cast iron, though some may wonder at the thickness of the thing....

"Christmas" is an amalgamation of pagan traditions that stretch far back before the birth of Christ (if such a being even existed). Christianity was painted over these deeper traditions in an attempt by the Church to make their contrived religion more palatable to the pagans.

Well, see above. Also, reference your parentheses back to my post on your prejudice. (While the debate about a historical Jesus is an interesting and valid one, the validity of the Christ, Christ-consciousness, and other related matters of faith is simply true for believers-something which has nothing to do with fact. As a scientist, I can tell you that there is a demonstrable difference between fact and truth)

As for Christianity being painted over those deeper traditions in an attempt by the Church, you shouldn't sell those pagans short-in many instances such things continued because the pagans deliberately disguised them as something palatable and acceptable to the church.

Thus, what you have been told is a Christian holiday truly is not.

And I say it is, and yet it is not-both cast-iron and stainless steel adorned with jewels.....

 

[elder999]

<snip!. The African Culture out of Kwanzaa <snip!>

There is no "African Culture" in Kwanzaa....

 

[Cryozombie]

"Christmas" is an amalgamation of pagan traditions that stretch far back before the birth of Christ (if such a being even existed). Christianity was painted over these deeper traditions in an attempt by the Church to make their contrived religion more palatable to the pagans.

Upnorth, do you not read what I write, or just ignore what you dont want to hear?

Hold on... lemme restate myself, Ill change the ephasis...

Its a CHRISTIAN HOLDIAY about a celebration of Christ's birthday, regardless of the fact that other traditions had been introduced into it.

John, dont make me dumb it down for you. I KNOW you know the meaning of the word REGARDLESS. I SUSPECT you know that Christmas is a Christian Holiday and not a pagan one, just one which has had some pagan traditions blended into it... Or are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell me, that CHRISTmas is a pagan holiday named after their Holy Earth Goddess named Christ? Now, if you are trying to argue for the SEPERATE holiday of the winter solstice which occurs around the same time and shares some of the traditions that have been incorporated into Christmas, fine, but... thats a seperate holiday... its NOT CHRISTMAS!!!

Please, man... I KNOW you are smarter than this, so I can only assume you are TRYING to stir up **** on purpose like a common forum Troll.

What part of CHRIST in CHRISTMAS are you missing man????

 

[Cryozombie]

There is no "African Culture" in Kwanzaa....

Well its SUPPOSED to...

Kwanzaa is a celebration of life and the up life of human beings based on the principles of African culture. It is celebrated by some African Americans between December 26 and January 1, and is a week long celebration. Kwanzaa was created in 1966 by Dr. Mulana Karenga

I mean it seems to be a "created" holiday by a College Proffessor from Cali which just happens to share the same basic season as Christmas... Much in the Same way Christmas Happens to share the same basic season as Solsitce, but is still a seperate holdiay from both...

What I am saying is that Kwanzaa is neither Solsitce or Christmas, its just celebrated at the same time of year and shares a few traditons with Chanukah, (such as lighting the Kinara) Christmas, (gift giving) and yes even Solsitce (feasting).

 

[Makalakumu]

Upnorth, do you not read what I write, or just ignore what you dont want to hear?

Hold on... lemme restate myself, Ill change the ephasis...

Its a CHRISTIAN HOLDIAY about a celebration of Christ's birthday, regardless of the fact that other traditions had been introduced into it.

John, dont make me dumb it down for you. I KNOW you know the meaning of the word REGARDLESS. I SUSPECT you know that Christmas is a Christian Holiday and not a pagan one, just one which has had some pagan traditions blended into it... Or are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell me, that CHRISTmas is a pagan holiday named after their Holy Earth Goddess named Christ? Now, if you are trying to argue for the SEPERATE holiday of the winter solstice which occurs around the same time and shares some of the traditions that have been incorporated into Christmas, fine, but... thats a seperate holiday... its NOT CHRISTMAS!!!

Please, man... I KNOW you are smarter than this, so I can only assume you are TRYING to stir up **** on purpose like a common forum Troll.

What part of CHRIST in CHRISTMAS are you missing man????

Elder999 seems to be arguing your point quite well. I'll address his post in an attempt to address you both.

 

[Makalakumu]

It's not demonstrably untrue, any more than your use of "bastardized" was in any way accurate.

Bastardization

Why do we put up Christmas trees? Why do we put up mistletoe? Wreaths? How about lights? Who is this Santa Clause? How about his reindeer?

All of these symbols and much more about Christmas had FAR more meaning long ago then the do now. These symbols were part of traditions and were intricately tied into sincere worship of others gods. Now, the symbols meanings are largely forgotten or they are part of a simple folklore tale that was invented in the last 120 years in an attempt to create a Christian Holiday.

Thus, to say that Christianity bastardized pagan symbols, is wholley correct. The meaning of these symbols has been lowered and in many cases debased.

Let's say you have a pot, an old, but quite servicable cast-iron pot, only the wire handle-thingy for hanging it over the fire in the fireplace is gone, as well as the lid.

I come along, and say, "Geez, that's a nice pot, but it really needs a handle." So I make one for it. Then, sometime later, someone else does the same for the lid, only they give it a nice, shiny, stainless steel lid. Then someone else comes along, and plates your pot with stainless, so that its lid matches. Then a jeweler comes along and decides it really needs some stones set in it, and some gold quilding. After all that, it's not the same pot anymore, is it? And yet,it is.

Of course, if all this happened in your lifetime, and you were to die, and your kids inherit the pot, but can barely remember the jeweler, let alone all the other modifications, and they die and pass it on to their kids, and so on for about 45 generations or more, well-it becomes "Upnorthkyosa's Stainless Steel Pot with Jewels and Gold Plating," instead of just some crummy cast-iron pot. In fact, no one even knows about the cast iron, though some may wonder at the thickness of the thing....

This is a wonderful analogy regarding the sexing up of various old symbols. However, this isn't what what done in regards to the symbols that are part of the Christmas holiday. The pagan significance of all Christmas symbols has been degraded and replaced with a chincy folklorish tale about Santa Clause flying through the air and visiting all of the little children while they are sleeping...which somehow ties to the Jesus/manger/wiseman folklore.

It is as if you took upnorthkyosas stainless steel pot with jewels and gold plating and stripped all of that off...right down to the plain old steel pot and then attempted to call the pot something else.

Well, see above. Also, reference your parentheses back to my post on your prejudice. (While the debate about a historical Jesus is an interesting and valid one, the validity of the Christ, Christ-consciousness, and other related matters of faith is simply true for believers-something which has nothing to do with fact. As a scientist, I can tell you that there is a demonstrable difference between fact and truth)

Hmm. I know a great many scientists, including myself, who would vehemately disagree that there is a difference between fact and truth. If there was, what would be the point of science?

This is a debate for another thread, however.

Regarding the debate about the historical Jesus. This debate takes personal significance, because I am skeptical regarding the existance of Jesus. I have seen enough evidence in the form of research that casts a long shadow on this fundamental Christian belief and I am rather confident in saying that Jesus probably didn't exist and was a work of liturature. With that being said, if I don't believe that Jesus ever walked this Earth and that Christianity is just another contrived religion in a long line of contrived religions, why favor one tradition's interpretation of these symbols over another? Especially when the old meanings of these symbols held far more significance then the meaning that Christians attach to them today?

I, personally, do not see any reason to favor one tradition over another. If someone else wants to celebrate the traditional Christian Christmas, fine. If I came over to their house, I would be completely respectful of that and I would participate in all of rituals like any knowledgeable and greatful guest.

Much of this thread revolves around what I will do in MY home...

As for Christianity being painted over those deeper traditions in an attempt by the Church, you shouldn't sell those pagans short-in many instances such things continued because the pagans deliberately disguised them as something palatable and acceptable to the church.

It was either that or be burned at the stake. Which brings up a point regarding persecution and various symbols that is valid and is not addressed in the movie originally posted.

And I say it is, and yet it is not-both cast-iron and stainless steel adorned with jewels.....

And I say it is like trying to call a pot a cat.

A pot is a pot.

 

[Makalakumu]

Upnorth, do you not read what I write, or just ignore what you dont want to hear?

Hold on... lemme restate myself, Ill change the ephasis...

Its a CHRISTIAN HOLDIAY about a celebration of Christ's birthday, regardless of the fact that other traditions had been introduced into it.

John, dont make me dumb it down for you. I KNOW you know the meaning of the word REGARDLESS. I SUSPECT you know that Christmas is a Christian Holiday and not a pagan one, just one which has had some pagan traditions blended into it... Or are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell me, that CHRISTmas is a pagan holiday named after their Holy Earth Goddess named Christ? Now, if you are trying to argue for the SEPERATE holiday of the winter solstice which occurs around the same time and shares some of the traditions that have been incorporated into Christmas, fine, but... thats a seperate holiday... its NOT CHRISTMAS!!!

Please, man... I KNOW you are smarter than this, so I can only assume you are TRYING to stir up **** on purpose like a common forum Troll.

What part of CHRIST in CHRISTMAS are you missing man????

Pagan traditions were not blended into a Christian Holiday. Pagan traditions became a Christian Holiday.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/time/crt/index.htm

This is a study of the origin of modern Christmas in ancient pagan traditions, how the festival was adopted by Christianity, and its evolution through history. Miles includes descriptions of folk-lore related to the Christmas season from a wide range of European countries, including an extensive collection of folk songs. It is important to learn about these traditions to remind ourselves that before Christmas became a hyper-commercialized festival of consumption, it was a joyous celebration of renewal and friendship.

Very interesting stuff. Lots to think about...

 

[elder999]

Bastardization

Hmm. I know a great many scientists, including myself, who would vehemately disagree that there is a difference between fact and truth. If there was, what would be the point of science?

This is a debate for another thread, however.
.

Well, no it's not.

Those scientists, yourself included, would be wrong, BTW.

My house in the mountains of New Mexico is quite cool, most summers. Some days, though, it gets close to 100 F, which is pretty warm for some.

Of course, I like it like that, so when I come home and the wife has the very rarely used air conditioning going, with the thermostat set at 68 F, I find the ouse quite chilly, and go and turn it up to a far more reasonable 74 F. It's cold inhere, I say to the wife, who promptly sets the thermostat back to 68 F and says, It's hot, what's the matter with you.. I point to my goose bumps, she points to her sweat, and the thermometer on the thermostat points to about 70 F.

So, the fact:it's 70 F.
My truth: It's cold.
My wife's truth:It's hot.

All equally valid, one fact and two truths.

I'll address the rest of your excellent but flawed (by prejudice, insistence, or a lack of study?) post a bit later. Do yourself a favor, though, go back to the dictionary and look up syncreticism. Remember, Scott, I'm not a Christian in any but the most remote sense of the word anymore. I don't have a particular dog in this hunt other than your use of the facts around the pagan elements is just a little less twisted than the "Christian" anti-Christmas screed's

IF you're really going to educate your kids about religion and the traditions of all us crazy believers, you need to properly educate yourself-and I don't mean trying to imvalidate whatever religious indoctrination it is that you've rejected, if any, or trying to poke holes in the various religions traditions, but look at the works of people who have undertaken a serious, scientific anthropological study of religion, people like Mircea Eliade, just for starters. I might go a long way towards establishing some understanding of how these things came to be, rather than simply enforcing your hostility-whatever the reasons for it, and you may well be entiltled to them (no one knows better than I how religion can be used to abuse people, or how many of the world's ills it's been directly involved in) in the end your insistence on your interpretation of the facts (and, in this case, lack of scholarshp in the area) being everyone's truth, rather than simply your truth only come across as agenda driven, rather than trying to simply share some interesting facts...

 

[Makalakumu]

Well, no it's not.

Those scientists, yourself included, would be wrong, BTW.

My house in the mountains of New Mexico is quite cool, most summers. Some days, though, it gets close to 100 F, which is pretty warm for some.

Of course, I like it like that, so when I come home and the wife has the very rarely used air conditioning going, with the thermostat set at 68 F, I find the ouse quite chilly, and go and turn it up to a far more reasonable 74 F. It's cold inhere, I say to the wife, who promptly sets the thermostat back to 68 F and says, It's hot, what's the matter with you.. I point to my goose bumps, she points to her sweat, and the thermometer on the thermostat points to about 70 F.

So, the fact:it's 70 F.
My truth: It's cold.
My wife's truth:It's hot.

All equally valid, one fact and two truths.

Semantics aside, I think this example confuses truth with interpretation. I guess it all comes down to whether or not you believe that their is a greater, wider and singular world out there that we can sense.

I'll address the rest of your excellent but flawed (by prejudice, insistence, or a lack of study?) post a bit later. Do yourself a favor, though, go back to the dictionary and look up syncreticism. Remember, Scott, I'm not a Christian in any but the most remote sense of the word anymore. I don't have a particular dog in this hunt other than your use of the facts around the pagan elements is just a little less twisted than the "Christian" anti-Christmas screed's

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Syncretism

Syncretism is the attempt to reconcile disparate, even opposing, beliefs and to meld practices of various schools of thought. It is especially associated with the attempt to merge and analogize several originally discrete traditions, especially in the theology and mythology of religion, and thus assert an underlying unity.

Syncretism is also common in literature, music, the representational arts and other expressions of culture. (Compare the concept of eclecticism.) There also exist syncretic politics, although in political classification the term has a somewhat different meaning.

I think I see where you are going with this...

IF you're really going to educate your kids about religion and the traditions of all us crazy believers, you need to properly educate yourself-and I don't mean trying to invalidate whatever religious indoctrination it is that you've rejected, if any, or trying to poke holes in the various religions traditions, but look at the works of people who have undertaken a serious, scientific anthropological study of religion, people like Mircea Eliade, just for starters. I might go a long way towards establishing some understanding of how these things came to be, rather than simply enforcing your hostility-whatever the reasons for it, and you may well be entiltled to them (no one knows better than I how religion can be used to abuse people, or how many of the world's ills it's been directly involved in) in the end your insistence on your interpretation of the facts (and, in this case, lack of scholarshp in the area) being everyone's truth, rather than simply your truth only come across as agenda driven, rather than trying to simply share some interesting facts...

I've read books by Mircea Eliade, Josef Cambell, and Carl Jung on religions and symbols, so I'm not completely in the dark on some of this stuff. If I come off as hostile towards this or that belief it is because I just recently woke up and realized that I didn't believe in any religion and now I'm stumbling around like a bumbling fool attempting to reconcile this.

 

[elder999]

If I come off as hostile towards this or that belief it is because I just recently woke up and realized that I didn't believe in any religion and now I'm stumbling around like a bumbling fool attempting to reconcile this.

I want to address this real quickly, Scott, in part because I've been where you are, and I sympathize-I don't completely disagree with you about the "historical Jesus," for example, or even your interpretation of the facts relating to Christmas celebrations.In your "stumbling"' though, you might not recognize your hostility. As an example, your use of the word "bastardization," not that it's altogether incorrect-though some might argue (myself included) that changed meaning still has meaning-though, from my educated one-time Christian perspective, neither Christmas trees, yule logs, Santa, candles or even Christmas is essential or central to Christianity in any way.

Getting to the point:would you say that your Tang Soo Do hyungs are "bastardizded Shotokan?"

 

[Makalakumu]

Getting to the point:would you say that your Tang Soo Do hyungs are "bastardizded Shotokan?"

Actually, yes, I would. Just I would say that shotokan is a bastardized form of Okinawan Karate. In both translation, critical knowledge of bunkai was lost and it was not replaced.

However, that is neither here nor there. I look forward to your response to my previous post...

 

[Cryozombie]

Pagan traditions were not blended into a Christian Holiday. Pagan traditions became a Christian Holiday.

So... wait... then you admit it IS a CHRISTIAN HOLDIAY? I won't argue that it has pagan traditions blended in, and yes they are blended in, unless celebrating the birth of Christ is a Pagan tradition that BECAME christian, in which case Christians just took the holiday over.

But thank you, finally for the admission that this is a Christian holiday... Now quit trying to tell us how Christians should celebrate it without the "Christian Veneer" in it.

 

[Makalakumu]

So... wait... then you admit it IS a CHRISTIAN HOLDIAY? I won't argue that it has pagan traditions blended in, and yes they are blended in, unless celebrating the birth of Christ is a Pagan tradition that BECAME christian, in which case Christians just took the holiday over.

If you are saying that Christmas is just a bunch of pagan and Christian traditions mixed together, then I would agree.

However, if blended in implies that the Christmas traditions celebrated by Christians came before the traditions celebrated by the pagans, then you are incorrect.

And consequently, the birth of Jesus is a pagan tradition.

Mithras was born of a virgin in a manger on Dec. 25th. He was visited by three wisemen and pronounced that he would become king. Mithras eventually died in order to save us and he will come back in order to judge the living and the dead. Sound familiar?

But thank you, finally for the admission that this is a Christian holiday...

Jesus = Mithras.
Sol Invictus = Christmas.

Now quit trying to tell us how Christians should celebrate it without the "Christian Veneer" in it.

Celebrate it as you wish. If it harm none, do what thou wilt. I'm not going to tell anyone how they need to worship.

 

[elder999]

Actually, yes, I would. Just I would say that shotokan is a bastardized form of Okinawan Karate. In both translation, critical knowledge of bunkai was lost and it was not replaced.

However, that is neither here nor there. I look forward to your response to my previous post...

But it is. Why not just "strip the veneer" of those false Korean bunkai away, and go practice Okinawan karate, or Shotokan. Would you say, then, that the practice of Okinawan karate is the most pure-the others being bastardizations-and therefore most valid, that Shotokan, Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do, etc. all are invalid becasue they are "bastardizations?"

Would it then follow that Okinawan karate is a bastardization of Chinese martial arts, that all karate practitioners should really "strip the veneer away" and practice gung fu?

WHich of these is the proper and valid celebration-er, practice, of the form?

Or do they all have validity?

 

[Makalakumu]

Or do they all have validity?

Yes, but it depends on the context.

In 1945, Hwang Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan. He originally called his art Hwa Soo Do, but soon changed this to Tang Soo Do at the advice of Wan Kuk Lee. Hwa Soo Do originally contained techniques from Tae Kyun and Yang Style Tai Chi, both of which Hwang had had some training.

Upon switching to Tang Soo Do, or Way of the China Hand, Hwang found himself learning an entire curriculum from one of Gichin Funakoshi's books. From that point on, forms were collected, but not studied. Some of the moves were preserved, but others were changed at a whim.

Eventually, gaps appeared. Striking alone did not seem to solve all problems when it came to self defense. Thus kata lists from various aikijutsu and jujutsu systems were imported and eventually the origins of these lists were blurred so that they seemed "korean."

Finally, the art of Tang Soo Do has come to a point where it is like too little butter spread over too much bread. Too much material has been shoved under one umbrella and the overall character of everything has suffered.

Thus we find our parellels with Christian Christmas.

The people who designed this holiday attempted to spread the Christian Mythology over too many things. And, in the end, I beleive that it has become bastardized. The original meaning of all of these symbols had far more depth...more cultural richness...more meaning then they do now.

In closing, I would like to state that there is value in understanding this. I think that seeing this provides insite into the creation of one of the first McChurches....a squeazing of all these different tribes under one umbrella.

The bottom line is that there is so much more out there. The human trait of religiosity is just like any other trait. Our common ground lies under the peak of the bell curve, while the differences lie in the wings. It all evolved like anything else.