Mod Note
Please return to the original topic.
Pamela Piszczek
MT Moderator
Please return to the original topic.
Pamela Piszczek
MT Moderator
Christmas = Sex Magic!
- Thread starter Makalakumu
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2003
- Messages
- 9,998
- Reaction score
- 206
Heretic, I agree you do not overtly attack the intelectual ability of most posters, however you do, and the post I quoted from is a pristine example, tend to post in a very authoritarian and sesquipedalian manner which lends a semblence of superiority to your posts, and that, I believe is what people are responding to. Thats one of the main reasons no one got along with Robert here. You are an inteligent and learned guy, but you don't need to laud that over the masses.
I have never asked for "Special Pleading" just an explanation from most folk why they can rally when a Christain Attacks say, a Muslim belief, or a Pagan one, but then be the same people who attack the christian ones. It is, in my mind, Biggotry at its finest.
And Mod Team, is this off Topic? My understanding of the topic from the original poster, was to demonstrate how dum r us chriss tee ins because we dunno wat da oreegeens uf r holy daze is:
heretic888
Senior Master
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2002
- Messages
- 2,723
- Reaction score
- 60
Well, this doesn't tie directly to Christmas so perhaps we should begin another thread....
OP
- Thread Starter
- #44
I still would say that my thesis has merit. I believe that most Christians (and Americans in general) are ignorant of the origins of Christmas. One look at popular culture and the general Zeitgeist will inform you in this.
Take a look at this new movie...
The Nativity
This movie is reinforcing the popular cultural mythology surrounding Christmas. And, it wouldn't have been made if the marketing people in Hollywood didn't think that most people actually believed this stuff.
Look, I realize that this just may be a matter of who you know, but in the devout Roman Catholic circles in which I grew up, this was not discussed. Not by the preists, not by the nuns, not by the monsignors, etc.
Where this personally causes problems for me is that I just don't know how to even think about Christmas. This holiday is about as Christian as Mayday and really had nothing to do with the nativity story. Its a confusing mishmash of traditions that is really hard to explain...especially this kids...my kids.
Imagine trying to answer this question now that you know the truth regarding the origins of Christmas...
"Daddy, why do we celebrate Christmas?"
Ray
Master Black Belt
I suppose I should watch the video that was referenced in the starting post of this thread. I would agree that most of what is done to celebrate Christmas has origins in other religions.
I believe that Christ was born of a virgin; that he lived, taught and died pretty much as the NT says. I believe that he bore the sins of mankind, was resurrected and lives today. ((Even if some of those thing bear a resemblance to parts of other religions)).
I believe that Christ was born of a virgin; that he lived, taught and died pretty much as the NT says. I believe that he bore the sins of mankind, was resurrected and lives today. ((Even if some of those thing bear a resemblance to parts of other religions)).
OP
- Thread Starter
- #46
One of my thoughts about a solution to this problem is to teach Christmas as a multicultural holiday. How cool would it be to strip the Christian veneer off and put into its proper context and then to teach about how many other cultures are touching our lives?
Sure, this doesn't answer the question as to what the meaning of the holiday is...unless the meaning is the multicultural celebration???
Hmm. Interesting thoughts...
bydand
Senior Master
Because this happens to be the day that was set aside to honor Jesus' Birthday. Is it really his Birthday, most likely no, but because nobody knows for sure, people long ago chose December 25th.
At least that is what I tell my kids. I don't expect anybody else to agree with it, but it happens to be the main reason we celebrate Christmas in our house. The other symbolism involved is just that, holiday traditions. Kids don't need to know, and at least mine don't care what the tree, or lights, or anything else meant long ago. To them, and me, it all wraps up to adding to the Holiday feeling and breaks up a bleak, cold landscape during the longest dark period in the year.
I did know where most of the traditions came from, and personally don't give a rip. What was meant years ago, changes and evolves into what we have now. I would expect in a couple of hundred years our ancesters will be discussing how bizarre the "rituals" were in 2006 on their version of the internet. What something means to us, probably will not mean the same thing to them; just as some of the symbolism now doesn't mean what it did years back to our ancesters. Just my 2 cents, and that is about what it is worth.
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2003
- Messages
- 9,998
- Reaction score
- 206
Yes, and the masses who are not Christian still wish to celebrate it, which is fine, and I dont care if they want to celebrate it as Santa, or as the Pagan Solstice, or anything else... but a lot of folk would take a Page from Larry the Cable guy and have us Rename it "A Non-denominal Winter Holiday".
Like I said before... Its Ok to Be Muslim, Jewish, Pagan, Wiccan, A member of the Golden Dawn, a Taoist...
But Damn those Christians, how dare THEY do somthing as silly as celebrate CHRISTmas with a manger and a star and a cross.
Ya know for my part, *I* have never made them remove a Santa, Menorah, or Pentagram from a public place... BUT HOW DARE WE HAVE A NATIVITY.
I heard once that the date was chosen because Dec. 25th is when the days start getting longer again (read:light entering the world), and that whatever date in June when the days start getting shorter is known as John the Baptists birthday. I don't know if this is true or not. I did a search and could not find anything to confirm it but I did find this.
Full article.
heretic888
Senior Master
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2002
- Messages
- 2,723
- Reaction score
- 60
Exactly, Jade Tigress.
That is also why the Church authorities moved the Jewish sabbath (which is on Saturday) to Sunday. Because SUNday is the day the Hellenistic Romans celebrated their solar deity (Apollo, I believe) on.
That is also why the solar "Cross of Light" was chosen as a religious symbol for the new faith. We do not find any iconography of Christ Crucified until well into the late fifth to early sixth centuries. There is no association of Christianity with the Cross, either, until at least the fourth century.
The earliest depiction of Christ's death is in the Pauline Galatians. He is described as "hung from a gibbet". There is no mention of a cross.
Laterz.
That is also why the Church authorities moved the Jewish sabbath (which is on Saturday) to Sunday. Because SUNday is the day the Hellenistic Romans celebrated their solar deity (Apollo, I believe) on.
That is also why the solar "Cross of Light" was chosen as a religious symbol for the new faith. We do not find any iconography of Christ Crucified until well into the late fifth to early sixth centuries. There is no association of Christianity with the Cross, either, until at least the fourth century.
The earliest depiction of Christ's death is in the Pauline Galatians. He is described as "hung from a gibbet". There is no mention of a cross.
Laterz.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #51
This is why I think that religion is completely contrived. I has less to do with the devine and more to do with what it means to be human.
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2003
- Messages
- 9,998
- Reaction score
- 206
Here, Lemme get you started:
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]Please accept with no obligation,
implied or implicit our best wishes for
an environmentally conscious,
socially responsible, low stress,
non-addictive, gender neutral,
celebration of the winter solstice
holiday, practiced within the most
enjoyable traditions of the religious
persuasion of your choice, or secular
practices of your choice, with respect
for the religious/secular persuasions
and/or traditions of others, or their
choice not to practice religious or
secular traditions at all ...[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]and a fiscally successful,
personally fulfilling, and medically
uncomplicated recognition of the onset
of the generally accepted calendar
year _______, but not without due respect
for the calendars of choice of other
cultures whose contributions to
society have helped make America great,
(not to imply that America is necessarily
greater than any other country or is
the only "AMERICA" in the western
hemisphere), and without regard to the
race, creed, color, age, physical ability,
religious faith, choice of computer platform,
or sexual preference of the wishee.[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono]- DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTABILITY -[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, Courier, mono](By accepting this greeting,
you are accepting these terms.
This greeting is subject to
clarification or withdrawal. It is freely
transferable with no alteration to the
original greeting. It implies no
promise by the wisher to actually
implement any of the wishes for
her/himself or others, and is
void where prohibited by law, and is
revocable at the sole discretion of
the wisher. This wish is warranted
to perform as expected within the
usual application of good tidings
for a period of one year, or until the
issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting,
whichever comes first, and warranty is
limited to replacement of this wish
or issuance of a new wish at the
sole discretion of the wisher.)[/FONT]
OP
- Thread Starter
- #53
How does this relate to celebrating "Christmas" as a multicultural holiday?
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2003
- Messages
- 9,998
- Reaction score
- 206
I did what you suggested, I saw "How cool would it be to strip the Christian veneer off"
Not impressive to me, I think Id ignore that holiday message of... well, what would the message be? Lemme re read that... oh here we go the message that its a holiday about nothing. My bad, someone already suggested we celebrate the made up Seinfeld Holiday.
Darksoul
Black Belt
-I would say we can either argue the reason for the season, or, celebrate the spirit of the season; goodwill towards all mankind. But I admit to being an idealist;-)
A--->
A--->
OP
- Thread Starter
- #56
Actually, what you did was create a xenophobic straw-man of my suggestion. Instead of celebrating the diversity that the "Christmas" Holiday could be, you have chosen to mock acknowledging other traditions with your post.
The problem with the thought behind this post is that it assumes that your beleif regarding the truth of the Christian roots of the holiday of Christmas is true. This is demonstratably false...and until you accept this, you'll continue to treat others in this xenophobic and ultimately bigoted fashion by mocking them.
Let me repeat myself in order to make myself clear...the Christian STORY regarding Christmas has just as much validity as any other tradition's story. They are all contrived creations that reflect more of what is inside us then anything approaching something that could be called reality.
Thus the celebration of the true multicultural origin of our christmas holiday is rationally sound.
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2005
- Messages
- 9,929
- Reaction score
- 1,451
Actually knew most of the info in there from religious studies. It's quite well known...
I agree with you in part. However, individuals are not typically multicultural, and neither are families. Coming from a somewhat atypically multicultural family, I can tell you that while such celebrations are possible, they also can incvariably lead to conflict. While my father the minister and I had numerous friendly discussions on just such matters, especially in regards to Christianity and the early church (and you should really look at the ties between Mithraism and the Nativity story-Mithras's birthday was Dec. 25 long before Jesus's, and that's why we celebrate Christmas on that day...) there have been others for whom such discussions are impossible. Ditto the marriage (almost a certainty) of the person called Jesus, church teaching to the contrary notwithstanding.
As far as the whole "Christmas=Sex Magic" thing goes, I'd have to answer, "to whom?" Why in the world should any of the world's Christians have to accept this, or celebrate it? Religion in such matters as their mythology are a thing of faith. Suggesting that people change their traditions in the name of diversity, at least where they cause no one harm, is almost as silly as suggesting that we all should celebrate Kwanzaa-a holiday more ridiculous than Festivus.
It's interesting to me that the video is a Christian, anti-celebration of Christmas propaganda screed.
The persepective some people have on the Church co-opting pagan and other religious holidays is actually somehwat skewed as well, though it's worth a whole other thread...
By the way, if you really want to blow your mind, google:
"Santa Claus, mushroom."
:rofl:
OP
- Thread Starter
- #58
As I have noticed...and this usually increases proportionally to the amount of ego a person has invested into this fantasy.
Jesus = Mithras. Constantine unites the empire.
I would never force in on anyone, however, for the sake of intellectual honestly in presenting a worldview that was rationally sound and grounded in actual historic fact, I would make sure that my progeny knew source of this holiday. I would also make sure that they knew that the current chic religions were nothing but bastardizations of the old religions.
Screed indeed. This video is a sad attempt to reframe the whole Christmas debate. This attempt comes in response the the acknowledgement by the Christians that the society they participate is inheritly immoral...aka materialism, violence, nationalism/golden calf, and ultimately the American trinity of Greed, avarice, and Rapaciousness.
Thus, the video has little to do with Christmas.
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2005
- Messages
- 9,929
- Reaction score
- 1,451
Your use of the word "fantasy" indicates a prejudice on your part.
Yes, and no. Constantine was actually a member of the Sol Invictus cult- and his conversion story shows elements of the Sol Invictus mythos,disguised as Christ, though he may also have been (as were many Roman soldiers) a Mithraist. However, the co-opting of the Mithrais nativity for Jesus is one of those two-way early church syncresis that are so interesting. It isn't as though the church simply co-opted Mithrais; it was also dependent upon the simple fact that a large portion of the membership (and not all) weren't willing to give elements of their Mithraism up, in spite of its being otherwise virtually eradicated in the rising power of the one, true state sanctioned religion, Christianity. The same sort of thing can be seen with Obeah practicing Africans disguising their gods as Christian saints, thus we have voodoo. Or the Church building sanctuaries on previously pagan places of worship and sacred sites throughout Europe. Or in the indians of Mexico disguising tha Aztec goddess Tonantzin as the Virgin of Guadelupe.
In fact, for the most part, if you scratch a Catholic saint hard enough in the place of his birth, invariably you'll find that underneath he's some forgotten local god.
Not bastardizations at all. There's a legitimate, scientific word for it, in the anthropological study of religion, and it's called syncreticism. It's always happened and I think always will. Again, because of my rather atypical heritage, I have a somewhat unique perspective on this, in that my family-at least, on my father's side-has a rich syncretic tradition that has Indian, African, Polynesian and Christain elements....
Great how your going to teach your kids, btw. Somewhat better than the simple default to teaching nothing that I've seen in many agnostic/atheist/ambivalent families.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #60
I would argue fervently that it is not. The usage of the word "fantasy" describes the fact that all of the mishmash human mythology is nothingbut the Old Stuff Reborn. However, if you were to draw a line from the length of my breastbone to the tip of my finger and then quantify history of human religions within that matrix, it could all be scraped away with the scrape of a nail file.
Here is an interesting movie that should be view in the context of the information provided in the above movie and the information about Mithras...aka...Jesus.
The God Who Wasn't There
Absolutely. I see no difference between the saints and the kami of Shinto religion or of the Spirits of other Animistic religions. All of this serves an evolutionary purpose...
Bastardization
I would say that my intitial characterization is correct. When one denounces the multicultural heritage of these holidays, one is reducing human history and the human experience into one narrow worldview. This is akin to putting on one giant burkha.
The mother or all burkhas.
Thanks. This is all new to me. I've stepped out of the circle in which I grew. The apple tree over yonder.
