Christmas = Sex Magic!

elder999

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It’s important that both sides try to realize that people did, over time, create Christianity. Over the years, it has evolved-just as people, over time, created paganism and other religions.

Getting back on topic, while the information Scott initially posted is interesting, some of it is questionable. The idea that Santa Claus came from the Siberian shaman is a good example of this. While there are parallels-and parallels can actually be drawn from many cultures around the world, some as far away from Europe as Afghanistan, there are several distinct threads that knotted together to become the figure known as Father Christmas, Saint Nick and, ultimately, Santa Claus. Many of them Christian.

The first of these is Saint Nicholas of Myra, a 4th century Christian bishop of Myra in Lycia, a province of Byzantine Anatolia, now in Turkey. Nicholas was famous for his generous gifts to the poor, in particular presenting the three impoverished daughters of a pious Christian with dowries so that they would not have to become prostitutes.

Prior to the Germanic peoples' conversion to Christianity, Germanic folklore contained stories about the god Odin (Wodan), who would each year, at Yule, have a great hunting party accompanied by his fellow gods and the fallen warriors residing in his realm. Children would place their boots, filled with carrots, straw or sugar, near the chimney for Odin's flying horse, Sleipnir, to eat. Odin would then reward those children for their kindness by replacing Sleipnir's food with gifts or candy This practice survived in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands after the adoption of Christianity and became associated with Saint Nicholas. Children still place their straw filled shoes at the chimney every winter night, and Saint Nicholas (who, unlike Santa, is still riding a horse) rewards them with candy and gifts. Odin's appearance was often similar to that of Saint Nicholas, being depicted as an old, mysterious man with a beard. (Other features, like the absence of one eye, are not found in Saint Nicholas.) This practice in turn came to America via the Dutch colony of New Amsterdam prior to the British seizure in the 17th century, and evolved into the hanging of socks or stockings at the fireplace.

Saint Nicholas-Sint Niklaus in Dutch-àSanta Claus.


Interstingly, Sint Niklaus/Father Christmas, etc. actually rode a white horse, and sometimes a goat, and rarely a single reindeer-all on the ground. He didn’t actually fly in a sleigh drawn by eight reindeer until Clement Moore wrote
The Night before Christmas
, based on his own Germanic heritage, in 1823.


Getting back to Odin, and the Germanic people, it might be good to talk about Vikings, an excellent example of the syncretism I brought up earlier.
The Vikings came into contact with Christianity through their raids, and when they settled in lands with a Christian population, they adopted Christianity quite quickly. This was true in Normandy, Ireland, and throughout the British Isles. Although contemporary accounts say little about this, we can see it in the archaeological evidence. As pagans (for lack of a better word, for now) the Vikings had many gods to pick and choose from, and it was a simple matter for them to have Jesus alongside all their other gods.

We know almost nothing about pagan religious practices in the Viking Age. There is little contemporary evidence, and although there are occasional references to paganism in the Viking sagas - mostly composed in Iceland in the 13th century - we have to remember that these were written down 200 years after the conversion to Christianity. We know that chieftains also had some sort of role as priests, and that pagan worship involved the sacrifice of horses, but not much more Pagans buried their dead with grave goods, but Christians normally didn't, and this makes it relatively easy to spot the change in religion. Some graves even have-and this was a common Viking pagan-Christian motif-both Thor’s hammer and a cross


As well as conversion abroad, the Viking Age also saw a gradual conversion in Scandinavia itself, as Anglo-Saxon and German missionaries arrived to convert the pagans. By the mid-11th century, Christianity was well established in Denmark and most of Norway. Although there was a temporary conversion in Sweden in the early 11th century, it wasn't until the mid-12th century that Christianity became established there. As part of the process of conversion the Christians took over traditional pagan sites. A good example of this can be seen at Gamle Uppsala in Sweden, where the remains of an early church stand alongside a series of huge pagan burial mounds.


The raids on the Frankish kingdoms and the British Isles brought increased contact with Christianity. Although Vikings often seem to have maintained their beliefs throughout the periods of their raiding, there was considerable pressure to convert to Christianity if they wished to have more peaceful relations with the Christians. This could happen on a political level, as in the Treaty of Wedmore in 878. The treaty bound the Viking leader Guthrum to accept Christianity, with Alfred of Wessex as his godfather, and Alfred in turn recognised Guthrum as the ruler of East Anglia.

Another more or less formal convention applied to trade, since Christians were not really supposed to trade with pagans. Although a full conversion does not seem to have been demanded of all Scandinavian traders, the custom of 'primsigning' (first-signing) was introduced. This was a halfway step, falling short of baptism, but indicating some willingness to accept Christianity, and this was often deemed to be enough to allow trading.

Further pressure came as Viking raiders settled down alongside Christian neighbors. Although scholars disagree on exactly how extensive the Scandinavian settlement was in different parts of the British Isles, few people would now accept that the Vikings completely replaced the native population in any area. In particular, the settlers often took native wives (or at least partners), although some settlers apparently brought their families over from Scandinavia. The children of these mixed marriages would therefore grow up in partially Christian households, and might even be brought up as Christians. Further intermarriage, coupled with the influence of the Church, gradually brought about a complete conversion. Thus a family might be largely Christian, but put up a tree for the toothless old grandfather each winter, ultimately forgetting why as they became more and more Christianized. That the practice also worked the other way, with the Church absorbing pagan practices, also goes without saying. Considering the age, it was only natural: you’re a lone friar, or small group of clergy, and you’re charged with spreading the faith, and you’re very, very far from any authority-or your home. It’s only natural (and the technique is still utilized by missionaries) that you draw parallels to establish understanding with the populace, and gradually convert their native practices to Christian ones.

The peaceful co-existence of pagans and Christians is suggested by some of the coinage of Viking York. One coin type carries the name of St Peter, rather than the ruler. This seems very obviously Christian, but on many of the coins, the final 'I' of 'PETRI' takes the form of Thor's hammer, and some of these coins also have a hammer on the reverse. These coins seem to carry a deliberate message that both paganism and Christianity were acceptable.






More to follow, but here's the St. Peter coin with Thor's hammer:
 

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elder999

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Getting back to my pot analogy, if you think of CHristianity as the pot, and one of the jewels-once a rough stone, but whittled away at by that jeweler so that it was beautifully faceted-as Christmas, it might be a little more apt. And, getting back to the whole Siberian shaman/Santa Claus thing, some of that richness you spoke of in your last post, Scott, jsut might not be valid..though the parallels are thought provoking, it's the sort of thing we'll never really know-though we do know that there was a St. Nicholas.

Religions, once they leave their area of origin, are always colored by the culture they are in.

Religions always evolve-thus we have many, many forms of Buddhism, some a far cry from what we can surmise Buddha himself (if there was such a person) had in mind.

Missionaries always change things to suit the culture, thus we have things like
the Jesus Sutras-7th century Christian texts found in China, that were formulated by Persian missionaries to China to a form that suited the populace.

Syncretism is a two way street, especially in the history of Christianity. The Church did absorb native practices-pagan and otherwise-and the natives often disguised their practices as Christianity, perhaps most notably in the case of the Aztec godess Tonantzin becoming Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico-something the Bishop of Mexico city (name escapes me) at the time almost recognized, wrote troubled letters to Rome over, and could do nothing about-the natives (and Our Lady of Guadalupe was the result of a vision reported by an Indian, and was first worshipped by natives converted to Christianity) were, as far as Rome was concerned, praying to the Blessed Virgin, and that was okay.

Sometimes, like the real reasons punches are “chambered,” knife hands are brought to the hip , and arms are crossed, things get changed, and what comes afterward-no matter how another can perceive or interpret the facts of it-is the truth for another, and serves them well. The mechanics of how it came to be so (concealed by Okinawans from Japanese, taught by Japanese as gospel, or absorbed by the church, or layered onto the church by pagans) really doesn’t matter to the person’s belief system, it is only historical….we can’t all be scientists, and most people don’t really care to be-they need their truth to get through life, and the facts-while interesting to some-are completely irrelevant to their beliefs. There is no “Christmas” without “Christ.” That it was something else, that the entire Nativity story was grafted from Mithraism (there are other elements of Mithraism not present in Christianity, and crucifixion and resurrection are common motifs in religions going back to the Egyptians-you can’t just say “Mithras=Jesus”; it’s not that simple.) are immaterial-it’s become something else. It’s not Yule, or a solstice celebration, any more than it should be the crass, material circus that it’s become-and yet, like your pot-it is Just like your hyungs, the interpretation and validity depend upon the context. For the anthropologist or historian, Christmas is an interesting conglomeration, and that's with the exact mechanics notwithstanding, Scott;you keep trying to fix blame on "the church" for stealing Christmas like some sort of Grinch, when it really did work both ways over the years. For the Christian, though, especially in this modern age of electric light, where we pay little attention to shortening and lenghtening of the day, apart from how it inconveniences us as individuals, for the most part, for the Christian, Christmas is the birthday fo the little baby Jesus.

What it is for you, is entirely up to you-that would be your truth, and perhaps, for you, it will exactly match the facts as we know them. Truth, though, as I posted earlier, is relative-open to interpretation if you wish, but truth nonetheless.
 
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Makalakumu

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Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts. I think I see the point you are trying to make.

However, here is something that sprung to my regarding syncreticism. What if there was not equal parity between the parties involved? What if the power difference on one side was so great that it force the issue?

I can definitely see an interflow of cultural memes, but I also sense that there was also a frantic effort to cover up what was being done by a people who were being persecuted for what they believed.

Perhaps this is another reason behind the thinly-veiled paganism that became Christmas.
 

elder999

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.

However, here is something that sprung to my regarding syncreticism. What if there was not equal parity between the parties involved? What if the power difference on one side was so great that it force the issue?

I can definitely see an interflow of cultural memes, but I also sense that there was also a frantic effort to cover up what was being done by a people who were being persecuted for what they believed.

Perhaps this is another reason behind the thinly-veiled paganism that became Christmas.

Well, it certainly could/i] be, though I've always liked to play the little thought game: what if that speculative blending, Chritianity and Paganism side by side, had become the prominent form of Christianity-or, at least, Protestanism? Would we now see Jerry Falwell rockin' to Ozzy? Pat Robertson's Halloween Special? What sort of world might that be?

Of course, it's not that way-and we're not going to change any of those people with facts, because they'll cling to their truth-like the excrable King James translation of the Bible being the unerring word of God-something I laugh at almost every day.

The fact is you're probably right-though it probably started out as benignly as I said.It probably worked both ways-at least that's what I think. Of course, I don't have some chip (however small-certainly not a Sequoia) in my shoulder for Christianity. It's easy to "fix blame" when you've already convicted-no matter how rightly-the party you're blaming.

So, getting back to the whole syncretism thing- fact is, all religions show elements of syncreticism, whether they’ve adapted -for whatever reason, elements of other religions or cultural elements. Islam-which Mohammad either made by conflating the existing faiths of the time with some distinctly Arabic cultural beliefs, or received as a direct revelation from the Archangel Gabriel-is a good example, and somewhat less mysterious than others, where it's pretty hard, especially after hundreds or even thousands of year, to say "ths is how it happened." Forms of Buddhism in Korea show distinct elements of Buddhism, as well as Korea’s native bon shamanism. Christianity, it has been argued, shows distinct elements of the Mystery schools-and it’s true; numerous papers have been written on the subject, including one famous (and remarkably plagiarized) one by Dr. Martin Luther King in college. The gospels, especially those of Paul, show elements of Greek Mystery Schools, Gnosticism, and Judaism. Speaking of Judaism, some have argued that Christianity is just a form of Judaism, or that Jesus intended to bring his message to the Jews, and it was chiefly about being good Jews -and, indeed, the Gospels show evidence of contemporaneous arguments to this effect. And, speaking of Judaism, it too has been influenced over the years by numerous external elements, not the least of which was cultural: the Jews of Jesus’s time were Hellenized themselves, and their Judaism had also been indelibly influenced by their exile to and subsequent release from Persia. The Temple position of High Priest was imposed upon the Hebrews (since they weren’t really "Jews" until after the fall of Jerusalem and the advent of rabbinical Judaism) by their former Persian oppressors.

Of course, Jews don’t have a High Priest or sacrifice animals any more, or have groves of sacred trees, and neither do most Christians (though there is a retention of some of these practices within the Coptic church) and couldn’t even tell you when they stopped doing them, or why they were done in the first place. Religions, whatever the reasons, evolve. Some just die out, some died with their people, some become something else, or part of something else.
 
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Makalakumu

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As long as that worship is free of "Christian Veneer" you mean.

Oh? Not once have I said that you couldn't believe in Christ or Christianity or whatever you want.

Of course your beliefs may not be supported by fact, but that should have little bearing on what you consider to be truth...which is kinda what Elder999 is saying.

If it harm none, do what thou wilt.
 
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Makalakumu

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One of the interesting things about syncreticism is that I can totally see the connection to our biology. This interflow of cultural memes is just like any other trait with a range of biologic variability. The things that we share are the things that reflect upon the majority of homo sapians. While the things that are different represent the evolution of these memes in different environments.

The big religions, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, in order to assimilate all of the different peoples also had to accomodate.
 

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Cryozombie said:
But thank you, finally for the admission that this is a Christian holiday...

Is it, now?? Really??

When I mentally recall all the images we associate with "Christmas" in the United States --- the multitude of songs, movies like The Christmas Story, the familiar literature featuring the Grinch and Mr. Scrooge --- I see very little in the way of Jesus Christ or Christianity. In fact, I was raised in a conservative Christian household and we only gave passing reference to Jesus on Christmas day.

I honestly think upnorthkyosa's concerns are interesting but not really bothersome. Christianity may have been a Christian holiday once upon a time, just as Western society as a whole had more or less theocratic rule, once upon a time. But today, Mr. Scrooge and the Grinch and Santa's elves and some glasses-wearing kid pining for a toy rifle have more relevance to Christmas for most people than Jesus.

I'm no Christian. Christmas, to me, has always been about friends and family. That's good enough.

Laterz.
 

Tez3

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Well! How unfair is it to have a title "Christmas = Sex Magic" and to click on and find you all discussing religion... again!! I thought I was going to get something a little saucier!! > goes away disappointed and untittilated<
 

Cryozombie

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But today, Mr. Scrooge and the Grinch and Santa's elves and some glasses-wearing kid pining for a toy rifle have more relevance to Christmas for most people than Jesus.

Yes, its amazing what marketing can do to a society. Theres a big difference between "Truth" and "Marketing Truth", I think you are smart enough to realize that.
 

Cirdan

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Well! How unfair is it to have a title "Christmas = Sex Magic" and to click on and find you all discussing religion... again!! I thought I was going to get something a little saucier!! > goes away disappointed and untittilated<

Allright here is something a little saucy for you. :kiss:

*image removed (oversized) to comply with size restrictions - see Rules*
(relax it is not what it might seem)
 

heretic888

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Yes, its amazing what marketing can do to a society. Theres a big difference between "Truth" and "Marketing Truth", I think you are smart enough to realize that.

I'm not so sure that Charles Dickens and Dr. Seuss are the best examples of mass marketers (unless you mean posthumously), but the point remains that Christmas has been moving away from an overt Christian association for the past two hundred years or so.

This isn't necessarily a product of "marketing". Rather, I think it is a commentary on the sociopolitical evolution that has occured in the West since the Age of Reason. The "secularization" of Christmas mirrors the parallel "secularization" and "democratization" of society as a whole.

It ain't the Dark Ages anymore, folks.
 

Tez3

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Cirdan..erm...thank you.... I think!

Most northern hemisphere countries have always a midwinter festival. Where it's dark and cold (where I live the days are very short, it's freezing and very, very miserable) there's nearly always a 'festival of light' of some sort. It was also a time to kill some of the livestock and use the fruit etc that wouldn't last much longer. Life was very harsh in most countries so a knees up in the middle of winter was probably a sanity saver if not life saver. What people make of the midwinter festival is up to them. Though lying on a beach in the southern hemisphere sounds very attractive at the moment.
 
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Makalakumu

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And then there is the fact that any excuse to "shack up" with your significant other is usually a good one...
 

Cryozombie

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I'm not so sure that Charles Dickens and Dr. Seuss are the best examples of mass marketers (unless you mean posthumously),

I hardly think things like the Cocacola santa image, doorbuster gift sales, candy canes, and the like are the results of Dickens Chirstmas story or The Grinch. Those are two books, popular yes, but not the whole of the christmas image.

When I talk about marketing, Im talking Santa, Elves, Reindeer, Jinglebell Rock, Santa baby, Ticke me Elmo, 2000.00 PS3 Ebay ripoffs and Wal Mart killings over CD players etc... not two Christmas stories by a couple of writers.
 

Tez3

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And then there is the fact that any excuse to "shack up" with your significant other is usually a good one...

Absolutely! I think that's part of the problem, humans being always manage to feel guilty (or have some one making them feel guilty) about enjoyment and fun so turning the fun into a religious 'duty' makes it seem 'proper'! It gives people something to look forward to and to work for. If your lifes pretty well bollocks a celebration/festival is a small bright part of the year!
 

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