Cerio Pinions/Pinans

[Gene Williams]

I think the heart of any of the traditional ryu is in the kata. Many of the new styles that have sprung up in America have not had the traditional kata as their focus, or even their concern. That is fine, but I think many have later decided that they would like to be able to claim traditional roots and so have begun to try to "traditionalize" their bastard arts. They are making my point for me. I see that you claim black belts in 17 martial arts. I don't suppose you understand how laughable that sounds. Tell me about your 8th dan in kobujustu. What type of kobujutsu? From your website, one would think that your rank claims are based upon the number of "pop" karate stars with whom you have had your picture taken.

 

[DavidCC]

There was a member here Professor Joe Shuras who had a first-hand knowledge of much of this. You may be able to find some old posts of his on this subject. Or I am sure you can contact him through the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu organization.

-D

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Just for your information.

Trias, if this is Robert Trias? He started way before that. He was in WWll and knew Mitose. He was in Arizona teaching Shuri, way before most of the others were thinking about it. Like the 50's.

Maybe we should get this straight. So the water is not so muddied.

Harley

that was said tongue in cheek

 

[kenmpoka]

Another wasted example of the title "Shihan"......Sigh.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Hi Folks!
Dear Williams Sensei,
Who's website did you see the WHOFSC mention at? I won't go into my opinions regarding that particular group. As far as Bob Bowles,Dirk Mosig and others of Robert Trias' USKA lineage, He also "changed" and made up kata as well in his Goju-Shorei Ryu/Shuri Ryu style. He orginally was a "hsing I" Kung Fu practitioner, not a karateka. As far as the "bs" you refer to, be specific.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

hi joe!

mr williams was referring to the site that i have a link for in my sig line. it is for the martial arts collective society that is headed by bruce juchnik hanshi. it was just another opportunity to for him to bash something else when a question was pointed in his direction.
i have the site link there for anyone that wants to learn more about kosho-ryu, and the other arts that are apart of it.
the MACS group is about unity in martial arts and the preservation of ALL teachings of the great masters of the martial arts.
it appears that mr williams has decided to distance himself from the great teachers with his excellent comments, desire to help, and his personal humbleness.

 

[Gene Williams]

Another wasted example of the title "Shihan"......Sigh.

Well, then, back to the "studio" with you.

 

[KENPOJOE]

I think the heart of any of the traditional ryu is in the kata. Many of the new styles that have sprung up in America have not had the traditional kata as their focus, or even their concern. That is fine, but I think many have later decided that they would like to be able to claim traditional roots and so have begun to try to "traditionalize" their bastard arts. They are making my point for me. I see that you claim black belts in 17 martial arts. I don't suppose you understand how laughable that sounds. Tell me about your 8th dan in kobujustu. What type of kobujutsu? From your website, one would think that your rank claims are based upon the number of "pop" karate stars with whom you have had your picture taken.

Dear Gene, [i'll dispense with sensei title as i've written several posts to you]
I do agree with you [to an extent] that the heart of the traditional {okinawan/Japanese} Ryu is indeed the kata! And chuan fa/Kenpo/Kempo is and has always been primarily a technique art, like jujutsu and it's original context was not focused on forms/kata/hyung/poomse. Kenpo has always been considered a "bastard child" by both Traditional chinese and japanese styles due to it's very nature. Also, like chin na, there are traditionally no forms, but a syllabus of techniques that concentrate on "self defense" [goshin jutsu (Jap.)] that will take from any given source that proves to be effective.
As far as my ranks are concerned, I don't claim to do all those arts at this time nor do I state that "all arts are equal" under the sun and your soke also list multiple BBs in different styles as well. Also, as a iaido practitioner, different ryu have very few waza/kata in their curriculum and promote through time in grade and continuous practice of those given kata. There are also styles that I no longer concentrate on but did indeed train/study/work at to acheive said rank in those given arts. As Prof. Cerio and others like him [including your soke] I trained in other arts ,sometimes training in several different arts at the same time, because I wanted to diversify my training in various martial arts. My list of ranks and lineage are easy enough to look up and research. Most of the people in my gallery have been at one or another my instructors in the various martial arts that i've done throuout my 36 [37 next month] year career in the martial arts.I've had traditional martial artists like yourself come to my dojo and ask me about the arts i do or have done and I've always been glad to compare notes,demonstrate and prove that I "walk the walk as well as talk the talk" in the study of the arts.
Simply stated,Gene, i'm familiar with you through bodoseek and E-Budo and I think you're just here to be a "troll" to this board and create a "flame war" and I'm fairly certain that if you continue this behavior you'll find your account suspended from here as well as it was on Budoseek.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[tshadowchaser]

mod warning
2nd warning
keep the discussion polite and respectful
use the ignor button if you don't like what someone is saying

Sheldon Bedell
mt mod

 

[Gene Williams]

No one has ever called me a troll, and I don't think it applies. I just have a pet peeve about the non-traditional arts trying to re-invent themselves as traditional. Plus, I have spent a lot of years training in, teaching, and studying the traditional kata, so I think I am qualified to talk about them.
You do have a point about the non-kata based arts. In some ways, we are talking about apples and oranges. I really don't think there is much in common between the two approaches.
I have met a number of EPAK people, and have had a number of them come and train in my dojo. I am sorry to say I have never been impressed, either by their made up Parker kata or by their technique. They have great marketing technique, and they take pretty pictures. Hollywood has been good to them. I realize that this forum is a whole nest of them, so it is probably not the best place for me to discuss traditional karate. But, I've just never seen anything about Parker or American kempo that compares favorably with any well taught traditional karate ryu. Sorry. be good.

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Williams Sensei,

Would you be willing to video tape yourself performing one of your katas and posting it here (or on the internet somewhere) for all of us to view? Or perhaps a demonstration of your karate style self-defense?

Thank you,

John Evans

 

[shesulsa]

It's good you have much experience at a traditional art and that you have a strong opinion regarding that. However, your opinion is no excuse to be rude to others, regardless of efficacy or lack thereof. What are you saying for your art and your rank when you spout thusly?

No one has ever called me a troll, and I don't think it applies. I just have a pet peeve about the non-traditional arts trying to re-invent themselves as traditional. Plus, I have spent a lot of years training in, teaching, and studying the traditional kata, so I think I am qualified to talk about them.
You do have a point about the non-kata based arts. In some ways, we are talking about apples and oranges. I really don't think there is much in common between the two approaches.
I have met a number of EPAK people, and have had a number of them come and train in my dojo. I am sorry to say I have never been impressed, either by their made up Parker kata or by their technique. They have great marketing technique, and they take pretty pictures. Hollywood has been good to them. I realize that this forum is a whole nest of them, so it is probably not the best place for me to discuss traditional karate. But, I've just never seen anything about Parker or American kempo that compares favorably with any well taught traditional karate ryu. Sorry. be good.

 

[KENPOJOE]

mod warning
2nd warning
keep the discussion polite and respectful
use the ignor button if you don't like what someone is saying

Sheldon Bedell
mt mod

Dear Sheldon,
I will comply.
BTW & OFF TOPIC: Does your lineage of sikiran come from George Chatier? [sp]
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[Ray]

But, I've just never seen anything about Parker or American kempo that compares favorably with any well taught traditional karate ryu.

"If the only tool you have is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail."

 

[marlon]

You did not read my previous post. I am very aware of the history of Okinawan karate, and what you and Cerio and other kempo types are doing isn't even close.

Could you kindly tell us what you see the difference as being?

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[John Bishop]

Many of the new styles that have sprung up in America have not had the traditional kata as their focus, or even their concern. That is fine, but I think many have later decided that they would like to be able to claim traditional roots and so have begun to try to "traditionalize" their bastard arts. They are making my point for me.

The "traditional" argument comes up all the time when people are trying to dis American martial arts.

Here are the founding dates of some popular martial arts:

Japan
Shotokan 1921
Shito Ryu 1930
Wado Ryu 1939
Aikido 1942
Shorinji Kempo 1946
Shukokai 1950
Kyokushinkai 1951
Koei-kan 1952
Renbukai 1964

OKINAWA
Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu 1947
Isshin Ryu 1954

Korea
Chung do kwon 1945
Tang Soo Do 1945
Chang moo kwon 1946
Tae Kwon Do 1955
Hapkido 1950's-60's
Hwarang do 1960
Kuk Sul Won 1966

America (and it's territories)
Danzan Ryu 1930's
Kara-ho Kempo 1940's
Kajukenbo 1947
American Kenpo 1950-60's
Karazenpo Go Shin jitsu 1958
Lima Lama 1968
Shaolin Kempo 1971

Martial arts have always evolved. And more systems are being developed in these countries all the time.
So the big question is; how old does a system have to be? And where does it have to come from before it's considered "traditional"?

 

[Gene Williams]

Could you kindly tell us what you see the difference as being?

respectfully,
Marlon

No relationship to traditional kata and applications, no interest in maintaining lineage with traditional ryu, focus primarily on technique, lots of individual innovation, no traditional dojo atmosphere, lack of traditional training methods, lack of traditional spirit...etc.

 

[Gene Williams]

The "traditional" argument comes up all the time when people are trying to dis American martial arts.

Here are the founding dates of some popular martial arts:

Japan
Shotokan 1921
Shito Ryu 1930
Wado Ryu 1939
Aikido 1942
Shorinji Kempo 1946
Shukokai 1950
Kyokushinkai 1951
Koei-kan 1952
Renbukai 1964

OKINAWA
Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu 1947
Isshin Ryu 1954

Korea
Chung do kwon 1945
Tang Soo Do 1945
Chang moo kwon 1946
Tae Kwon Do 1955
Hapkido 1950's-60's
Hwarang do 1960
Kuk Sul Won 1966

America (and it's territories)
Danzan Ryu 1930's
Kara-ho Kempo 1940's
Kajukenbo 1947
American Kenpo 1950-60's
Karazenpo Go Shin jitsu 1958
Lima Lama 1968
Shaolin Kempo 1971

Martial arts have always evolved. And more systems are being developed in these countries all the time.
So the big question is; how old does a system have to be? And where does it have to come from before it's considered "traditional"?

It has to do with lineage and the concept of the ryu, much of which is transmitted through kata. It doesn't have primarily to do with when a ryu was founded. BTW, Shito ryu is Okinawan karate. It kind of exploded in Japan around Osaka in 1927 when Mabuni moved there and became one of the big 4 in Japan, But, it is Okinawan karate.

 

[John Bishop]

BTW, Shito ryu is Okinawan karate. It kind of exploded in Japan around Osaka in 1927 when Mabuni moved there and became one of the big 4 in Japan, But, it is Okinawan karate.

Well then you can probably call Shotokan "Okinawan" karate because Funakoshi moved to Japan from Okinawa.
And of course Wado came from Funakoshi's student, so that is Okinawan.
And Yamaguichi's Goju Kai in Japan came from Miyagi's Goju Ryu, so that's Okinawan.
And I'm sure many of the Chinese martial scholars will call Okinawan karate "Chinese", since much of the knowledge came from China.
And of course no one has ever changed any of these traditions to meet the needs of their own times.
The truth of the matter is "karate", "kung fu", and "kempo/kenpo" are all generic terms that are used to describe thousands of individual styles of self defense.
It would be hard to defend people like Ed Parker, Adriano Emperado, Nick Cerio, etc, if they had ever said that their systems were traditional Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, etc systems.
They have not. They created American systems based on techniques, philosophies, and traditions of various Asian and western self defense systems. Just like the Japanese borrowed from the Okinawans. Just like the Okinawans borrowed from the Chinese. Just like the Koreans borrowed from the Japanese and Chinese. Just like the Chinese borrowed from the Indian's.

 

[Gene Williams]

You are correct, the guys you named never claimed that they were teaching traditional ryu, and that is fine. What I was being critical of was people in modern arts who try to re-invent themselves as "traditional" or who mess with traditional kata to try and create something "better" even though they have no ties with traditional ryu.
No, there is a big difference between what Shotokan and Kyok do and the Okinawan ryu. Most traditionalists understand the differences and can spot them immediately. Yamaguchi's Goju is not Okinawan Goju, as Okinawan Goju students will quickly tell you. You have a fairly shallow understanding of the Okinawan ryu, but I'm sure that is by choice.
You and many others on this forum come from newer styles that have a vested interest in playing up the, "oh, its all the same" philosphy and the,"all arts are eclectic" mentality because that allows you to experiment and play and be "creative." That is all well and good, but those who have spent a lot of years in the traditional ryu and studied them realize that they are not all the same and they are not all eclectic in the manner that you intend.
All that being said, when it comes to training to fight and for self-defense, I believe it is the person not the art. I'm sure that Ed Parker Kempo, with a good instructor, can teach someone to fight just as well as Shito ryu or Goju ryu karate. If there was a really good EPAK instructor or Kajukenbo instructor right next door to a half-assed Shito ryu or Goju dojo, I'd tell anyone to go tothe the Kajukenbo or Kempo school. But, that really isn't the issue here. I would want to argue that the traditional ryu have more depth and more to offer in terms of hard traditional training, but not everyone wants that. So, we are at an impasse.

 

[kenmpoka]

Well then you can probably call Shotokan "Okinawan" karate because Funakoshi moved to Japan from Okinawa.
And of course Wado came from Funakoshi's student, so that is Okinawan.
And Yamaguichi's Goju Kai in Japan came from Miyagi's Goju Ryu, so that's Okinawan.
And I'm sure many of the Chinese martial scholars will call Okinawan karate "Chinese", since much of the knowledge came from China.
And of course no one has ever changed any of these traditions to meet the needs of their own times.
The truth of the matter is "karate", "kung fu", and "kempo/kenpo" are all generic terms that are used to describe thousands of individual styles of self defense.
It would be hard to defend people like Ed Parker, Adriano Emperado, Nick Cerio, etc, if they had ever said that their systems were traditional Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, etc systems.
They have not. They created American systems based on techniques, philosophies, and traditions of various Asian and western self defense systems. Just like the Japanese borrowed from the Okinawans. Just like the Okinawans borrowed from the Chinese. Just like the Koreans borrowed from the Japanese and Chinese. Just like the Chinese borrowed from the Indian's.

Great post Mr. Bishop. There are lots of morons teaching any or all the aformentioned arts. Instructors need to be judged on their own merits. Mr. Williams, yes, there are arrogant and ignorrant practitioners in all camps including the so called traditional Dojo(s). Just because one follows his/her instructor like a sheep, does not make them any better......