Cerio Pinions/Pinans

[BlackCatBonz]

so let me get this straight......its ok for an okinawan to learn karate from a couple of different guys, put his own spin on it, call it something different......and then someone else decides, "hey lets pretend to honour motobu while were at it"......because it all happened 75 years ago.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I'm not the one claiming greatness for myself or anyone else, though I have trained under some greats and with some greats and know some others I would call great. I went to your site and was disappointed to see that you reference the good ole World Head of Family Sokeship Council, a standing joke among most traditional martial artists. I grew up in karate with some of the folks in the pictures like Dirk Mosig, Bob Bowles and a bunch of Trias' boys. They were the group that started karate 4 or 5 years before I did. Trias' group was a real mixed bag, some good and some just ego freaks. Anyway, I know great when I see it and I know BS when I hear it.

so you've been in karate for 35 years......that would make it 1970.
trias and the boys started karate 5 years before you in 65...i never knew it was such a recent development.

 

[Gene Williams]

My introduction to karate was in 1967, but I have only been training continuously since '70. I think Trias started training long before that, but many of his people I knew back then began in the '60's. There was a lot of martial arts in Hawaii even earlier (Okizaki, Wally Jay, etc.). Then, there was the usual crowd of Camp Hanson one year wonders who came home as "masters."

 

[Ray]

It would be better if non-traditional martial artists [...]who want to start their own style would just keep it to making up their own kata.

If something is "traditional" it has been "passed down." At some point in time, someone started the tradition and others learned (or emulated) it. Someone "made up" the "traditional kata" too.

Since they pretty much reject tradition in favor of ego, they should just leave traditional kata alone.

Were the original creators of kata only working to satisfy their egos too? If your art is Japanese or Okinowan, then didn't the arts originate from China -- especially in the form of C'huan Fa (or Kempo in Japanese)?

So, guys, stay in the garage and have fun...and don't trip over the lawn mower while doing Dragon Form 1.

I may be mis-interpreting this comment, but are you saying quality instruction/practice/learning comes only from being in a commerical dojo?

 

[Harley Quinn]

so you've been in karate for 35 years......that would make it 1970.
trias and the boys started karate 5 years before you in 65...i never knew it was such a recent development.

Just for your information.

Trias, if this is Robert Trias? He started way before that. He was in WWll and knew Mitose. He was in Arizona teaching Shuri, way before most of the others were thinking about it. Like the 50's.

Maybe we should get this straight. So the water is not so muddied.

Harley

 

[KENPOJOE]

Hi Folks!
I was reading this thread and I wanted to clarify a few points...
Pinan [or as many in the new england kenpo circles still incorrectly called it "pinian"] was used by the Prof. Cerio to describe thew non kenpo/kajukenbo/karazenpo goshinjutsu forms that he [cerio] had incorporated into his art [Nick Cerio's Kenpo (NCK)]. The first 2 pinans are indeed the "taikyoku" basic "H" or "I" pattern kata associated many okinawan/japanese/korean styles in regards to footwork. However, many of the hand movements were changed due to Prof. Cerio working with Prof. William Chow of Hawaii in the late 1960's. If your lineage does "back two knuckles" and "front two knukles into "rolling cross hammerfists" to the groin and"lead upward block,rear upward block,lead spearhand to groin,rear spear hand to throat" as well as "corkscrew punches" in 2 pinan, those were basics taught by Prof. Chow to Nick Cerio. Kenpo elements from the hawaii kenpo were also incorporated into the next 3 pinans.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

The origin of Professor Cerio's katas are explained here:
http://www.studiosunis.com/en/sec_art/art_ori.asp

Hi Folks!
Thanks for the link,Lance, But I wouldn't quote it as gospel. They have "lin wan kune"[southern shaolin(Sil Lum) for "continuous returning fist"] listed as a shotokan form! I think that is more of a web placement error because of the mention of Sifu Fong chin, who went over the form with prof cerio after he had learned the basic format from Leo Fong's text "Sil lum kung fu". But, as I mentioned before, the format's information is not accurate.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

Thanks for the link. I think it is great.

Heian/Pinan 4 & 5 are the only Heian/Pinan Shown in the Mas Oyama book however. Throughout this website it is stated that 3 - 4 & 5 were learned from Mas Oyamas book and brought into the Karazenpo System by Nick Cerio as Pinion 3 - 4 & 5.

I just want to understand how he came up with Pinion 3 from the book by Mas Oyama when it isnt even in the book.

Taikyoku One - Pinion One in the original Nick Cerio System and Later SKK.

Taikyoku #2 & #3 are combined along with Kung Line drills Nick Cerio learned in Hawaii from Prof. Chow. to make Pinion Two

Pinion Three is supposed to have been learned from Mas Oyamas book as Heian 3/ Pinan 3. The books I have seen and the two I have do not have hein 3 in them at all.

That is my question. Is the claim of learning Pinan 3 - 4 & 5 from Mas Oyamas book true or false since I can not find pinan/heina 3 in any of them various prints). Only heian 4 & 5 which became Pinion 4 - 5.

I understand where he went with renaming and revising the kata he learned as well as creating his own.

I just want to dig a little deeper is all. I have been researching the SKK / Cerio / Karazenpo line from Kajukenbo for nearly a year now. I found a glitch and just want to clarify it.

Thankyou.

Hi Folks!
I think we shoulds clarify that Prof. Cerio did not simply learn from books. Rather, he trained with numerous instructors in different arts to obtain his knowledge, George Pesare,Tadashi Yamashita,Fumio Demura,William Chun Sr.,Prof William Chow,Ted Olsen, James Benko,Ed Parker,Gin Fong Chin,are among some of the men who prof. cerio worked with over the several decades of his career, so to solely list these texts as the only source of the creation and addition of the katas would be erroneous. I have first editions of all on mas oyama's texts and will look to see and confirm the text's content.
Also, your statent about prof. Cerio bringing the pinans to the karazenpo goshinjutsu system are also incorrect, at that time,Prof. Cerio had already broken away from George Pesare and added those versions of the pinan kata to his [cerio's] system.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[dsp921]

Hi Folks!
Thanks for the link,Lance, But I wouldn't quote it as gospel.

I just did a search on "Cerio" and "Pinan" and came up with that link. I was just trying to help, I cannot speak for the accuracy of the link.
As usual, you have some good information in your replies, thank you.
Who's Lance?

 

[KENPOJOE]

So, another wannabee "professor" soke, whatever, messing with the Pinan and putting in his own stuff. Ho-hum. I guess they'll never go away...

Hi Folks,
Williams Sensei, didn't Kosei Kokuba,founer of Motobu ha Shito ryu,Train with Mabuni as well as motobu,not to mention other kobudo experts of the day.Also,His son, Shogo Kuniba, his son, who i'm presuming you trained with directly, also trained with many different sensei as well as his father. Both men created their own kata as well. Your statements sound like "the pot calling the kettle black"
It never ceases to amaze me when "traditionalists" fault occidentalds for doing exactly what their oriental instructors did!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

I have not read anything here that indicates "greatness." Sounds like you are having a lot of fun in your garage.

Hi folks!
Williams Sensei,
It's no one's "job" to prove "greatness" to you, or anyone else for that matter. Again, many of the masters your lineage came from taught in homes,in living and dining rooms,gardens and patios, out in the feilds and if they had a horse/mule and cart, they sometimes taught in barns, the forerunner to garages! Please, go back and research your history and look at it from a more "humanistic" view and you will find your sensei did the same as modern martial artists today.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

I just did a search on "Cerio" and "Pinan" and came up with that link. I was just trying to help, I cannot speak for the accuracy of the link.
As usual, you have some good information in your replies, thank you.
Who's Lance?

Hi Folks!
Sorry,David! Another mass. based Kenpoist who is on here has a similar sn and I got the two confused.
I will be contacting Clarmont Poulin and mention about the errors on the website.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

I'm not the one claiming greatness for myself or anyone else, though I have trained under some greats and with some greats and know some others I would call great. I went to your site and was disappointed to see that you reference the good ole World Head of Family Sokeship Council, a standing joke among most traditional martial artists. I grew up in karate with some of the folks in the pictures like Dirk Mosig, Bob Bowles and a bunch of Trias' boys. They were the group that started karate 4 or 5 years before I did. Trias' group was a real mixed bag, some good and some just ego freaks. Anyway, I know great when I see it and I know BS when I hear it.

Hi Folks!
Dear Williams Sensei,
Who's website did you see the WHOFSC mention at? I won't go into my opinions regarding that particular group. As far as Bob Bowles,Dirk Mosig and others of Robert Trias' USKA lineage, He also "changed" and made up kata as well in his Goju-Shorei Ryu/Shuri Ryu style. He orginally was a "hsing I" Kung Fu practitioner, not a karateka. As far as the "bs" you refer to, be specific.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

It would be better if non-traditional martial artists, like Cerio, et al, who want to start their own style would just keep it to making up their own kata. Since they pretty much reject tradition in favor of ego, they should just leave traditional kata alone. They will never be taken seriously by traditionalists, so it is pretty stupid to try to claim some tie with tradition by screwing with traditional kata. So, guys, stay in the garage and have fun...and don't trip over the lawn mower while doing Dragon Form 1.

Hi Folks!
Dear Williams Sensei,
I realise that you never knew Nick Cerio and have little to no idea of the legacy associated with the man and his art. But, when your own tradition did the exact same things as you are mentioning in this post, I really have to wonder if you're really thinking through what you're saying here on this post. I've personally seen kuniba's son compete in tournaments and change or create new kata as well as change traditional kata, as his father did before him. Prof. cerio had a long history of training with traditionalist sensei and as I always say "Nick Cerio's Kenpo got more Japanese every day." because of his incorporation of traditional japanese karate and kubudo kata that were implimented in the last decade and a half of his life. to respond to your comment about what you think is "stupid"...it's sad when you don't know where you come from in your own system and the history of that system/style, You do an art where your pants are designed so that when you squat in the rice patties to harvest,you don't get your pants wet, you train with devices that are agricultural tools in places due to your occupations. so, take off your geta/zori because they are dirty from the roads,oil your kama from cutting stalks near water, put your tonfa in the rice grinder to make millet for dinner and don't trip over said kama when you practice YOUR kata!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

They will never be taken seriously by traditionalists, so it is pretty stupid to try to claim some tie with tradition by screwing with traditional kata.

Hi Folks!
BTW,Both Fumio Demura & Tadashi Yamashita were sensei of Nick Cerio and have the utmost respect for him and his art. Ask them yourself and see what their answers are to your queries.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[Gene Williams]

Hi Folks!
Dear Williams Sensei,
I realise that you never knew Nick Cerio and have little to no idea of the legacy associated with the man and his art. But, when your own tradition did the exact same things as you are mentioning in this post, I really have to wonder if you're really thinking through what you're saying here on this post. I've personally seen kuniba's son compete in tournaments and change or create new kata as well as change traditional kata, as his father did before him. Prof. cerio had a long history of training with traditionalist sensei and as I always say "Nick Cerio's Kenpo got more Japanese every day." because of his incorporation of traditional japanese karate and kubudo kata that were implimented in the last decade and a half of his life. to respond to your comment about what you think is "stupid"...it's sad when you don't know where you come from in your own system and the history of that system/style, You do an art where your pants are designed so that when you squat in the rice patties to harvest,you don't get your pants wet, you train with devices that are agricultural tools in places due to your occupations. so, take off your geta/zori because they are dirty from the roads,oil your kama from cutting stalks near water, put your tonfa in the rice grinder to make millet for dinner and don't trip over said kama when you practice YOUR kata!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

You did not read my previous post. I am very aware of the history of Okinawan karate, and what you and Cerio and other kempo types are doing isn't even close.

 

[KENPOJOE]

I was not talking about variations in traditional kata from ryu to ryu. All the various traditional versions are recognizably the same kata and developed through an internal logic based upon the lineage of the ryu and the kata. All traditional ryu recognize the different versions, and they are remarkably consistent from ryu to ryu. Variations in bunkai, while less consistent, are still recognizably based upon the internal logic of the kata and, in many instances, standard bunkai exist across ryu. Now, that is really different from some self-styled "master" playing with the traditional kata. Whatever Mr. Cerio is doing, it isn't traditional martial arts. But, just as long as you are having fun...watch out for the weed-eater, too, and don't step on the cat.

Hi Folks,
Williams Sensei,who are you to dictate what constitutes "traditional"? How long does something have to be before it ecomes traditional? 100 years? then your own art doesn't qualify.Number of generations of black belts? Perpectuation of the art on a national/international level, personal recognition on those levels? Watch out for that kamayari or kuwa. BTW, did kuniba sensei or his famaily own a cat? I'm fairly certain that they did! Ask his son if ever got in his way when he worked out at home!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
PS: It must hard seeing the forest with all those TREES in the way!LOL

 

[Gene Williams]

Hi Folks!
BTW,Both Fumio Demura & Tadashi Yamashita were sensei of Nick Cerio and have the utmost respect for him and his art. Ask them yourself and see what their answers are to your queries.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

Demura is extremely polite and courteous. Yamashita is Hollywood all the way, but a fine martial artist.

 

[KENPOJOE]

Demura is extremely polite and courteous. Yamashita is Hollywood all the way, but a fine martial artist.

Having interviewed both men for my TV show in the past as well as training with Yamashita sensei several times over the past 2 decades, I'm sure they'll honestly answer your questions about Prof. Cerio.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

 

[KENPOJOE]

You did not read my previous post. I am very aware of the history of Okinawan karate, and what you and Cerio and other kempo types are doing isn't even close.

Hi Folks!
Dear Williams Sensei,
I DID read your posts and I don't think you look at the alleged "traditions" from a humanistic view. You see them as "sacrosanct" and heaven forbid any "roundeye" should tamper with them, when people from your own lineage did and do the exact same thing! I've had the honor,pleasure and privilage of training with some of the highest ranked/titled okinawan masters in the martial arts and have always asked them about the aspects of their arts and lives. It amazes me how we westerners many times will seek to "traditionalize" the arts even more than those masters themselves! Nick Cerio became facinated with the more traditonal kata and wanted to "traditionalize" his art and add his personal preference for the japanese arts as he grew older.
This reminds me of the old joke I say to some people...
"Here's a Quarter, go buy a clue. Here's a dime, call someone who cares, Oops! Sorry, phone calls cost 50 cents now, you can't afford a clue!"
and in regards to your earlier post using the word "stupid",I'm reminded of the phrase Ed Parker said to me...
"Ignorance is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity."
It's your perogative to feel as you do,and state your opinion as you do, but IMHO, you're simply ignorant to the background of the man and his art.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE