Capoeira works

[Flying Crane]

You probably are, and good for you. This may make you a little blinkered. I have a very good friend who is well versed in Aikido. He has a black belt in Kenpo and training in kickboxing, but now, and for the past 8 years, his primary art has been Aikido. He swears blind it is the ultimate art and has taken on faith all the mythical stories perpetuated by Aikidoka about Ueshiba and Takeda Sokaku. I've sparred with him, and asked him while we are sparring to try to you a control on me while we are sparring, so far he hasn't been able to. I've also asked him to try to lock me u or throw me, even by suprise when we hang out. So far, over the last 2 years, he hasn't been able to. I've even asked that his instructor try, but the guy knows better. When he tries and fails, he tells me that he hasn't reached the level of Ueshiba yet, but if Ueshiba was alive, he would be able to throw me with little contact. I don't buy it! I can't for the life of me understand why he hasn't yet tried Iriminage, I can see that working in a sparring scenario, but he hasn't so, I wait, and wait, and wait.
I've told him that Aikido's usefulness goes well beyond streetfighting. That it's a beautiful art and that it serves a greater purpose. It even introduced him to his very smoking hot wife, but he keeps insisting that Aikido is the perfect art for self preservation, when confronted by a thug. Why? Because he is blinded by his love for his art and his teacher. He's a good guy, noble, but in this case, misguided.

Now, show me an instructional video of Capoeira, where the teacher teaches a combat method of Capoeira without doing acrobatics and I mean a respected Master of the art and I'll say Capoeira is effective for self preservation. However, no matter what, noone is going to convince me that the technique Atackx pulled is viable for a violent encounter. It is impressive, it shows conditioning, it shows athleticism, but if you think it's effective , you don't understand the mechanics of a truly violent encounter.

Let the official record show that Yorkshirelad has made his choice, and he chooses: IGNORANCE.

 

[Twin Fist]

no, he doesnt, he is correct

we have begged for evidence of a combat system of this crap, and no one can produce any.
instead, people have tried to convince us that acrobatics and flippy gymnastics are combat effective (which is horse ****) while claiming but not showng that there is more to it

put up or....well, you know the rest

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

alright, I understand that tho I've not reviewed any of the videos linked other than the original one. I find most of the videos posted on youtube do not do the system (or any system for that matter) much justice.

I highly doubt also that there are any videos out there of a capoeirista trouncing the bad guys for real. Video proof does not exist for everything. Some things are gonna have to be taken on faith when we are having a long-distance discussion.

Absolutely, which is what I had said earlier.

are their training videos for a more self-defense/combative oriented version of capoeira? Not to my knowledge.

That is unfortunate.

I can find legit training vids, good ones, both on youtube and for purchase, on aikido, hapkido, kendo, haidong geomdo, shotokan, taekwondo, etc.

While video is not the end all/be all of proving one's point, it does make a powerful statement. A good video that says, 'this is how we train and drill for an actual fight' would be a great way to respond to people who keep asking to 'see real capoeira.'

I suspect that the reason that the acrobatic stuff is on Youtube is because it is visually impressive and not to present 'true capoeira' to the world. In other words, someone did something cool and wanted to show it off.

Daniel

 

[ATACX GYM]

Brian Ebersole...

This is one of the videos that I linked a few pages back in the barrage of videos that I used as proof that a technique that's been disparaged is actually well known for its efficacy.

Like I previously said,the next 2 weeks I will put up a plethora of capoeira techs and movements that both do and don't have acrobatics in them.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is one of the videos that I linked a few pages back in the barrage of videos that I used as proof that a technique that's been disparaged is actually well known for its efficacy.

Definite fluke. I wouldn't have fallen for that one, but kudos to the guy that pulled it off.

Again, as I have repeatedly said, it is not impossible to pull off but nor is it advisable in a self defense situation.

Daniel

 

[ATACX GYM]

Ring examples of individual techniques as "proof" of effectiveness is a non-starter. Ring examples are of the "1000 monkeys at typewriters" variety. Given enough examples you will see many things. Even this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9WHr0e8dV4&feature=related

Yes. parkour is an effective self-defense style IF YOU TRAIN IT RIGHT. LOL!!!

That's simply not true and that kick ISN'T parkour.Both of your assertions are demonstrably short on logic.You usually have sharp posts,Archangel M. Not this time. The "ring examples" are dependent on what level of combatant is in the ring and how permissive the rules are. But truth is? A high end point fighting guy like Mike Pombeiro or Raymond Daniels will ALSO defeat you in h2h self defense because these guys have honed skill,an arsenal and ability clearly beyond the norm.Any kickboxing world title holder or contender will crush you in h2h combat (the unarmed variety) without question. Tell the kali tudo guys about how ineffective they are,then pull a knife or stick on them.Just be sure that your Last Will and Testament is completed beforehand. Hop skip and jump your way on over there to Floyd Mayweather,laugh at his inadequate ring examples of defensive skill,try to kick or punch him...and be thoroughly destroyed by Floyd's "in ring" examples of punches. Swagger your way on down to the USA Olympics Team,and have at the nearest wrestlers judoka boxers and tkd folks,fresh from the mat (that's their ring,except boxers are in the squared circle).See what joy you receive. Ease on down to the Kudo or Kyokushin tourneys and laugh it up at the karateka there before you try to get your whale on with your vaunted self-defense techs.Observe the massive lack of success you achieve. Break out your kali espada and guffaw derisively like plundering pirates har har har before slashing lustily at...the Olympic saber fencing champs. Explain to Lyoto Machida why you're not sweatin his elusiveness or karate because he scraps in a cage and a ring...while the rest of us watch and just do the "smh" as he Crane kicks you into oblivion like he did the one and only legendary Randy Couture.

Your logic is flawed.Your conclusion is flawed.

What sports is very good at is performing very well under a set of rules.Self-defense has a much broader set of circumstances,but in general the people performing are significantly less skilled,conditioned and athletic than sports combatants are.All sports combatants need to do is train under broader conditions which include self-defense circumstances and they'll outshine these average shmoe types too in S-D...and innovate extensively in the process. Remember how for the longest time old skool CQB guys felt you had very limited shooting options and mobility while grounded? We're talking guys from WW2 to Vietnam and even quite a few (not as many but still way too many) thereafter?

And then Russian Spetsnaz and other forces began rethinking things.And stuff like THIS happened:

Remember how--even now--most martial arts instructors focused on dealing with weapons including guns BEFORE they were drawn because the general feeling was it's "game over" when a weapon is drawn? And then THIS happened:

And along comes a Twin Fist,a Yorkshirelad,and an Archangel M who swear that head kicks don't work.And THIS happens:

They swear that twirly kicks don't work,and THIS happens:

But WAIT. Navy SEALS and Taiwanese SWAT and Soth Korean ROC teams do head kicks and...GASP...stuff that works in the ring just modified it for their environment (which is what I've been asserting from day one...cuz yes,Archangel M...IT WORKS IF YOU TRAIN IT RIGHT). Say it ain't so,TwinYorkAngel! But waitiaminnit it IS SO!!

So what a surprise (not); all your claims that "ring sports" are inapplicable to self-defense is also inaccurate.Proveably so. Proof in the pudding.It's all over done and it's a wrap.

Now you can say that these head kicks,spin kicks,etc. aren't frequently used. Agreed.You could say that--in comparison to the opportunities to shoot stab punch knee elbow low kick etc. safely--the opportunity to execute say a cartwheel kick safely is significantly more rare.I agree there too. You can then forcefully conclude that it's your opinion that it's better to omit these techs altogether.Cool I can see and respect your reasoning there.

What you CAN'T say FACTUALLY is that these techniques are without self-defense merit and that units who are a thousand times better than you will eeever be in S-D don't use these techs.These best of the best fight more like me than they fight like you.Now THAT'S a FACT. Just so happens that my opinion more accurately reflects these facts than yours do...because it IS true that the facility of a technique is based directly upon its quality functional training. In other words,like my sig says...

"IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN."

 

[ATACX GYM]

Definite fluke. I wouldn't have fallen for that one, but kudos to the guy that pulled it off.

Again, as I have repeatedly said, it is not impossible to pull off but nor is it advisable in a self defense situation.

Daniel

To which I would reply

I'd modify that statement to: "Are they impossible to use in self defense? Not saying that. Are they effective in self defense? YES. Are they frequently applied techniques in self defense? NO. Are they advisable to use in self-defense? Depends on the situation."

 

[Twin Fist]

I didnt think it had to be said, but clearly some people dont realize:
MMA IS NOT REAL LIFE


only a moron thinks head kicks are EVER a good idea IN SELF DEFENSE. isit possible? maybe so, but hey, i CAN drive a car with my FEET< doesntmake it a good idea

if the bad guy isnt bent over? keep your feet on the ground. It will keep you alive longer

anyone that thinks they can use head kicks reliably IN SELF DEFENSE has either never been in a street fight OR they are on drugs, either way they are dreaming

flukes happen

accidents happen

dont bet your LIFE on being able to do it at will.

you aint anderson silva, you cant do what he does, and you never will be able to. Hell, Anderson Silva prob couldnt do what he does on the street in street cloths with 2-4 bad guys around him.

DUH

 

[Twin Fist]

*chuckle*

yeah, cuz you say so.....lol

some people make me laugh

So what a surprise (not); all your claims that "ring sports" are inapplicable to self-defense is also inaccurate.Proveably so. Proof in the pudding.It's all over done and it's a wrap.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'd modify that statement to: "Are they impossible to use in self defense? Not saying that. Are they effective in self defense? YES. Are they frequently applied techniques in self defense? NO. Are they advisable to use in self-defense? Depends on the situation."

That is what not advisable means. They are generally not advisable. There are exceptions to every rule, but those are exceptions.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I maintain the position that done correctly, in practical application, most styles will bear more similarities than differences. There are certain prinicples to successul self defense and successful fighting in a tournament setting that are common to all styles.

So while you may see some stylisitc differences in execution (one guy rotates his fist, another guy hits with a vertical fist, etc.), you will see more substantive similarities.

Daniel

 

[MJS]

Folks,

There've already been a few nudges and reported posts from this thead. Let this serve as the last nudge. Lets keep things civil please.

 

[ATACX GYM]

I didnt think it had to be said, but clearly some people dont realize:
MMA IS NOT REAL LIFE


only a moron thinks head kicks are EVER a good idea IN SELF DEFENSE. isit possible? maybe so, but hey, i CAN drive a car with my FEET< doesntmake it a good idea

if the bad guy isnt bent over? keep your feet on the ground. It will keep you alive longer

anyone that thinks they can use head kicks reliably IN SELF DEFENSE has either never been in a street fight OR they are on drugs, either way they are dreaming

flukes happen

accidents happen

dont bet your LIFE on being able to do it at will.

you aint anderson silva, you cant do what he does, and you never will be able to. Hell, Anderson Silva prob couldnt do what he does on the street in street cloths with 2-4 bad guys around him.

DUH

Of course MMA isn't street fighting. The MMA guys are better h2h and street scraps involve circumstances that can (although relatively rarely) involve weapons and several assailants at once.All that means is: train your techs for those confrontations too.There ya go.


All this means is that your experiences and/or opinion have lead you to this conclusion.That's cool.However,I've used head kicks plenty of times growing up on the mean streets of southeast san diego,north,east,and downtown Long Beach CA,on the streets of Compton (in the parking lot of the supermarket next to the Compton Blue Line station) and seeeveerraaal times in Los Angeles at the clubs and southcentral L.A. Yes there were times when there was more than one guy I was fighting and had no impact on the head kick's effectiveness. I have also executed the jump lowkick to the knee any number of times. Aaaand I've landed the spinning backfist (usually following a feint body shot or over your dropped lead hand) numerous times too. I even have pulled off the old skool Benny "the Jet" Urquidez double spinning backfist a few times over the years. My facility with the technique amplified both my willingness to execute the tech and the numerous times it landed.I only missed it twice out of the 2-3 dozen times that I've launched it in fights and maaany times while sparring; thousands of times over the years (and when I missed it just means that I always land the body blow I throw right behind it).

Head kicks are reliable.Very reliable. You may be thinking "head kicks aren't as frequently available as various hand blows knees,tackles and low line kicks" or something.Okay agree with that. But it doesn't mean that the kicks aren't reliable or advisable; head kicks end fights much more reliably than a punch does,and it's advisableto end fights as fast as you can.Imo it's advisable to have your weapons well trained for and honed to take advantage of what the other guy thinks. People who follow the perspective that Twin Fist espouses won't really be expecting head kicks in fights and they won't be using them either.Me? Ghetto child. Security professional. I've executed head kicks successfully IN STAIRWELLS. Once in an elevator (don't ask,lol). Even pulled off a playful head kick inside of a SUV recently as last week. Head kicks work,they're reliable,and if you train them functionally,the opportunities for their use are muuuch more frequent than those who espouse the TwinYorkAngel perspective might have you believe.

Aaaaand I provided links of special forces units training the head kick.They're in the hairiest of SD scenarios aaaand warfare.That would/should end any reasonable contention about this specific tech's viability in SD to reasonable minds. Disagree? Okay,but our disagreement boils down to training philosophy,not the efficacy of a kick.Nobody who disses the head kick would volunteer to be head kicked,so we KNOW it works and it hurts if you land it.Training philosophy is where we differ and that's cool.No problem.

Still gonna video those other capoeira techs over the next 2 weeks. So yeah let's get back to the main idea.Capoeira techs.We differ on head kicks? Coool.Howbouthem non-head kick capoeira moves though?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Okay,but our disagreement boils down to training philosophy,not the efficacy of a kick.Nobody who disses the head kick would volunteer to be head kicked,so we KNOW it works and it hurts if you land it.Training philosophy is where we differ and that's cool.No problem.

Nobody, absolutely nobody, is arguing that kicking someone in the head is an ineffective way to injure them.

And the issue is not head kicks specifically, but any kick above waist level. The issue with any kick at or above waist level in self defense is that it really is not all that hard to catch the kicker's kicking leg, and doing so requires virtually no training at all.

Seen it in real life, seen it in the dojang with low belt TKD students when they first begin sparring. It is a reflex that must be trained out of the student in order for them to spar in tournament without receiving a warning.

In fact, it is reflexive for most people mainly because it is such a no brainer: dude kicking is on one leg. I catch leg in air. Now dude who tried to kick me is in a compromised position.

That goes for experienced kickers as well as inexperienced kickers. And that is the reason that such techniques are, as a general rule, not advisable in a self defense situation.

Once the kicking leg is caught, the easiest thing for the opponent to do is to simply lift sharply and push forward. And if you're lucky, that's exactly what he'll do. Alternatives are elbow strikes to the knee, kicking you in the now wide open groin, or any number of jujutsu style takedowns that involve you ending up face down with your opponent bending your leg in ways God never intended it to bend. Then there's the possibility of him/her/it knifing you in the now open inner thigh area.

Regarding military training in MA, hand to hand combat is very low on the priorty list for the military. Kind of like sword work in aikido; if you take aikido, you'll eventually get some sword training (aiki-ken), but nobody practices aikido because they want to learn swordwork. Likewise, if you join the military, you'll get some unarmed combat training. But nobody joins the military to learn how to fight without weapons. It's kind of a byproduct. You will receive much more comprehensive unarmed combat training if you train in a place that is dedicated to unarmed combat training.

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

I suspect that the reason that the acrobatic stuff is on Youtube is because it is visually impressive and not to present 'true capoeira' to the world. In other words, someone did something cool and wanted to show it off.

Daniel

bingo, dead-on. This is, I believe, absolutely true. It's visually impressive and has that "wow" factor that people love. That's what is commonly seen, and so people think that's all that capoeira is.

 

[Twin Fist]

I can say i can pull it off a Triple Lindy, i can say i fly to the moon under my own power. Doesnt make it true. And most of the time, no one will believe me. Rightly so.Generally speaking, the taller the tale, the more likely it is to be BS....your mileage may vary

Superheroes are rare, someone claims to be one? they most likely are not. Look for a cape. No cape? well then...........


I will wait to see some of the "real" stuff. From an actually skilled practitioner.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Superheroes are rare, someone claims to be one? they most likely are not. Look for a cape. No cape? well then...........

Didn't you even see the Incredibles??? Capes are out of fashion now. Except for Supes, Thor and Bats who are throwbacks, nobody does capes anymore.

Daniel

 

[ATACX GYM]

Nobody, absolutely nobody, is arguing that kicking someone in the head is an ineffective way to injure them.

And the issue is not head kicks specifically, but any kick above waist level. The issue with any kick at or above waist level in self defense is that it really is not all that hard to catch the kicker's kicking leg, and doing so requires virtually no training at all.
Daniel

I have not seen anyone mention specifically kicks above the waist until now. Maybe I missed that post. I even more energetically disagree with that contention than I do about head kicks.Catching the leg of someone who kicks well is NOT easy AT. ALL. It may be a natural reaction for many people after a partial kick has landed to hunch over from the kick and grab at the leg,but what that means is that the kicker lacks "retraction speed". It's like the kicker threw their kick and LEFT IT OUT THERE. Furthermore,I have never in my life seen anyone be "trained out" of catching a kick.In all my life,we've trained THE OPPOSITE.But I have noted over the last 3 decades how few people we spar are able to catch a kick and counter at the same time,so I suppose that many other schools may indeed teach others to NOT catch the kicks.My Kenpo, TKD and Hapkido GMs taught me THE EXACT OPPOSITE.Like my MT coach,we religiously practice slipping,evading,blocking,catching and countering kicks with kicks blows sweeps throws etc. I have numerous drills for this of my own.I might video them and put them up on my page.Frankly,I never gave a instant's thought to someone being "trained out" of catching kicks.To me,such a practice is...counterproductive,to state it kindly.

I too have seen many a person have their kick caught after they've thrown the kick.That person didn't train their kick correctly,or mistimed the kick.It's ALWAYS one of the two and far too often BOTH.Like somebody catching a hook or power cross or knee...if your blow is caught? You didn't throw it right or retract it with sufficient speed.You also weren't throwing COMBINATIONS as a person catching your leg IN THE MIDST OF A COMBO is simply opening themselves up for the following finishing blow. I've thrown MANY a abdomen,waist,hip,rib etc. kick and RARELY have I been caught (and NEVER after I got The Thousands for it as a Yellow Belt; that's 30 years ago now) in my whole life. If I land that kick (or any kicker who's trained their kicks functionally and explosively) I feel very confident that very few people will catch my kick...unless it's their face or whatever target I want to hit that is doing the "catching" of my kick.

Secondly,dealing with a caught kick is no big deal. I work those drills all the time.If somebody's caught your leg,first you've usually hurt them to some extent because you've at least partially landed your kick.Secondly,both their arms are engaged in holding your leg.Thirdly,you get to give them hell and mayhem because they're holding your leg and not especially adept at defending themselves from that position because they don't put in lotsa quality reps there.Practice against the tackle,sweep,punch,and weapon deployment from this position (as I do) and you're all good.Plus you'll have lotsa options that the other guys HAS NO IDEA IS COMING because HE DOESN'T train against the possibility that somebody whose leg he's caught is perfectly comfy skilled and fully able to wreak havoc from that position.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Once the kicking leg is caught, the easiest thing for the opponent to do is to simply lift sharply and push forward. And if you're lucky, that's exactly what he'll do. Alternatives are elbow strikes to the knee, kicking you in the now wide open groin, or any number of jujutsu style takedowns that involve you ending up face down with your opponent bending your leg in ways God never intended it to bend. Then there's the possibility of him/her/it knifing you in the now open inner thigh area.

Regarding military training in MA, hand to hand combat is very low on the priorty list for the military. Kind of like sword work in aikido; if you take aikido, you'll eventually get some sword training (aiki-ken), but nobody practices aikido because they want to learn swordwork. Likewise, if you join the military, you'll get some unarmed combat training. But nobody joins the military to learn how to fight without weapons. It's kind of a byproduct. You will receive much more comprehensive unarmed combat training if you train in a place that is dedicated to unarmed combat training.

Daniel

Like I said in the intro to my KENPO UPGRADED video series about a year ago,we take these "leg-catching" scenarios as part of our BASIC training.Because we have lotsa experience in these scenarios,we have also developed quite a few very effective methods of preventing it from happening and dealing with it very effectively when it does happens.Knives,multifights with your leg caught (worst case scenario),catch as catch can and jits leg manipulations,throws heaves you name it.That stuff is BASIC.Orange belt material TOPS. I teach disengagement from the catch WITH EACH KICK I TEACH.It's ESSENTIAL imho and dramatically amplifies the confidence that the student has in the deployment of his/her kick.I see that there's more need for drills that I considered to be a no-brainer and that EVERYONE did than I thought...because apparently MOST people may NOT be doing this.

Visavis military and the MA? I think that you're correct in that the military of course spends a great deal more effort in training their warriors in the use of weapons over hand to hand,but I also think that the emphasis changes from culture to culture.In the USA maybe most elite soldiers train weapons to hand to hand in a proportion of say 90/10. In places like Japan,Korea,China,etc. the proportion would very likely differ.Like 80/20. For instance,the person who can front kick your head off is probably going to be better at kicking down doors than your average military specops guy and the guy who can do both is more valuable to his unit. Again...difference in training philosophy.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I'm going to say it again.....right, here goes! Is evryone listening. Hand stand kicks are in no way, shape or form reliable tactics for slf preservation. Capoeira may be an excellent combat system, but from the gymnastis stuff I've seen, it's yet to be proved to me.Atackx showed many videos containing SF personell. I didn't see a handstand kick in any of them, and the flashy stuff was used as part of a demonstration, by a demo team. It has to look flashy to impress.Again, hand stand kicks are not advisable for self preservation unless you are a character in a Jean Claude Van Damme movie!