Capoeira works

[Daniel Sullivan]

I remember this from the other thread. I would say that Capoeira would be civilian combat derived from older Tribal warfare and combat methods. It is different from what most people are familiar with in that it retains aspects of the various African cultures that were blended to become what it is today. It is not strictly a physical method. The music and rythmic aspects are reflections of the African cultures, and these points are common within all aspects of those cultures. I.e., the Africans would sing and use music as a way of making a day of hard work in the fields go easier. This kind of thing is prevalent in everything, and not slotted to a separate "music time". So it makes sense that music and rythm would be found in the practice of their fighting arts as well. Understanding this about African cultures is important in understanding where this fits within capoeira. Nobody set out to create a fighting dance. It is a fighting method, and cultural music is blended as an integral part of the method.

I had the same dillema with taekwondo. It was derived from older fighting systems and was practiced in the military.

But the vast majority of schools teach it as a sport and as a lifestyle/fitness art aimed primarily at kids and teens.

Haidong gumdo ended up as strictly a lifestyle/fitness art. It was made up in the eighties and is based on Shimgumdo which was made up in the late sixties. Neither have any prewar roots and both have a goodly amount of 'history' that only exists within their own organizations.

Capoeira appears to be a lot of things wrapped up in one. In that sense, it is very much in line with Japanese gendai budo. Capoeira has a folk game aspect (music/dance and cultural roots), a competitive aspect (at least by the way I read this thread), and a self improvement aspect.

The reason that I don't include TKD in civilian combat is because, outside of a handful of schools, nobody is teaching it that way. Virtually every TKD school that I have visited in different parts of the country that claim to be SD oriented are simply grafting on hapkido techniques and maybe some moves culled from BJJ and MT and look more like they're trying to adapt TKD to MMA rather than to practical SD use.

I am open to the idea that capoeira qualifies as civilian combat (meaning outside of a sporting context), but I have to ask you; is actually taught that way outside of maybe a handful of schools?

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

I had the same dillema with taekwondo. It was derived from older fighting systems and was practiced in the military.

But the vast majority of schools teach it as a sport and as a lifestyle/fitness art aimed primarily at kids and teens.

Haidong gumdo ended up as strictly a lifestyle/fitness art. It was made up in the eighties and is based on Shimgumdo which was made up in the late sixties. Neither have any prewar roots and both have a goodly amount of 'history' that only exists within their own organizations.

Capoeira appears to be a lot of things wrapped up in one. In that sense, it is very much in line with Japanese gendai budo. Capoeira has a folk game aspect (music/dance and cultural roots), a competitive aspect (at least by the way I read this thread), and a self improvement aspect.

The reason that I don't include TKD in civilian combat is because, outside of a handful of schools, nobody is teaching it that way. Virtually every TKD school that I have visited in different parts of the country that claim to be SD oriented are simply grafting on hapkido techniques and maybe some moves culled from BJJ and MT and look more like they're trying to adapt TKD to MMA rather than to practical SD use.

I am open to the idea that capoeira qualifies as civilian combat (meaning outside of a sporting context), but I have to ask you; is actually taught that way outside of maybe a handful of schools?

Daniel

I think these are reasonable observations.

I've had some similar thoughts at times about it as well. I don't have the definitive answer to your final question, I can only speak to the experience that I've had with it. From what I've experienced, capoeira in the US is taught mostly for the game nowadays, tho in the context of the game it can approach fighting. I have not observed any schools teaching specifically for fighting, but I've got to qualify that statement a bit. First, I've seen some schools attempt to include some aspect of "fighting" or "self defense" within their training, even if they primarily train for the game. However, I think in most cases they missed the point and assumed that to fight, you just do what you would in the game but more aggressively. I don't believe that is the proper way to approach training to fight. I believe that training to fight needs to be approached in some fundamentally different ways, and that means identifying what techniques and methods within the system actually make sense in a fight, and then training them to be decisive. Secondly, I've not gone to Brazil and have not experienced capoeira outside the United States, and I've certainly not witnessed every school within the United States either. So it is entirely possible that there are some schools that are effectively and properly training to fight, but I cannot confirm that.

I will also say that I've met and trained with visiting instructors from the larger organization that my teacher belongs to. Some of those folks are downright scary, and I would not want to tangle with them. Does that mean they are trained "fighters", or just very strong and aggressive "players"? I don't know. I only know that I wouldn't want to face off against them if we were playing for keeps.

The way I see it is, what was the original intention of the method? It was a fighting method. I recognize that today it is much different from what it was in past generations, and the focus of training has changed. But I can see that the original fighting potential still exists within it, and that is why I would be reluctant to categorize it as something other than a martial art. It is a martial art that has different aspects, one of which is more playful and is the predominant focus for most.

I can see how you view some parallels with TKD and such. Sorry I can't give you an absolute definition, and maybe that's the nature of capoeira. It's always been elusive and tricky.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I believe you, but you're missing the point of my post.

Yes, you can teach me to do a cartwheel. Or anyone else for that matter. It still doesn't make cartwheel kicks or other techniques that depend heavily upon athleticism advisable for self defense, particularly for the average person or for those well past their prime.

Are they impossible to use in self defense? Not saying that. Are they advisable to use in self defense? No.

Daniel

I teach a claas ever once in a while in Camp Pendleton for a "Combat Camera" unit. If I was to get them to try and perform a kick from a cartwheel and portray it as a practical combatives tactic, I would be fired on the spot.

 

[Flying Crane]

I teach a claas ever once in a while in Camp Pendleton for a "Combat Camera" unit. If I was to get them to try and perform a kick from a cartwheel and portray it as a practical combatives tactic, I would be fired on the spot.

yes, but that's not really what capoeira is all about.

go back and read the several posts I've made lately...

 

[yorkshirelad]

yes, but that's not really what capoeira is all about.

go back and read the several posts I've made lately...

Believe me, I've read them. This whole thread began when Atackx showed a video of himself doing a kick from a cartwheel and touting it as a viable method of self protection. Now, my experience of Capoeira is more of a dance. If Atackx had shown a video of himself headbutting his partner and told me that he learned that from Capoeira, I would've said "Nice, that's a viable method of self protection! Good job mate!". He didn't do that, he showed us a kick that would probably not work in a combat situation.

 

[Flying Crane]

Believe me, I've read them. This whole thread began when Atackx showed a video of himself doing a kick from a cartwheel and touting it as a viable method of self protection. Now, my experience of Capoeira is more of a dance. If Atackx had shown a video of himself headbutting his partner and told me that he learned that from Capoeira, I would've said "Nice, that's a viable method of self protection! Good job mate!". He didn't do that, he showed us a kick that would probably not work in a combat situation.

I've not commented directly about the video in the opening post. I'd say the posts i've made in this thread have made my own feelings clear on the matter.

In the meantime I've been trying to educate the readership here on what capoeira really is. I've been trying to give a realistic description of what goes on and what it has to offer, and what it means as a viable fighting method.

You say that in your experience, capoeira is more of a dance. This tells me that your experience has been minimal, which I believe you even stated earlier. That you think capoeira is more of a dance tells me that you do not understand it, even a little bit.

as someone who is reasonably experienced in capoeira, I'm telling you: it's not a dance. If you wish to continue believing that it is a dance, now that I've told you directly that it is not, then you are choosing ignorance over education.

I'm trying to guide you and anyone else who cares to read and consider and ponder a little bit, away from ignorance.

 

[Twin Fist]

and, after 17 pages, no one can produce any "real" capoeira that doesnt bear a strong resemblence to the lambada

 

[yorkshirelad]

I've not commented directly about the video in the opening post. I'd say the posts i've made in this thread have made my own feelings clear on the matter.

In the meantime I've been trying to educate the readership here on what capoeira really is. I've been trying to give a realistic description of what goes on and what it has to offer, and what it means as a viable fighting method.

You say that in your experience, capoeira is more of a dance. This tells me that your experience has been minimal, which I believe you even stated earlier. That you think capoeira is more of a dance tells me that you do not understand it, even a little bit.

as someone who is reasonably experienced in capoeira, I'm telling you: it's not a dance. If you wish to continue believing that it is a dance, now that I've told you directly that it is not, then you are choosing ignorance over education.

I'm trying to guide you and anyone else who cares to read and consider and ponder a little bit, away from ignorance.

Show me some "combat" Capoeira that doesn't include jumping, spinning kicks.
Like I said to you before, I understand Aikido. I understand it from a combat POV and an historical POV. I understand that it's true usefullness is in the perfection of the character and the philosophy it brings to the table. I can truly say that my life has been truly enriched by being an Aikidoka. I also understand that Nikajo-osae chudan tsuki does not work in a practical self protection sense. It works in the dojo because the uke is being cooperative. I can take facets of Aiki however and make it work in context. I can use all controls from Ikajo through gokajo effectively against grab attacks after softening the opponent up with atemi-waza.

Now, this all being said, there may be facets of Capoeira that can be used in combat effectively without putting yourself in undue danger like, knee, elbows, eye gouges and headbutts, but up till this time no one has showed me anything of the sort. Instead I'm shown handstand kicks and told that they work. Well as a martial artist, doorman, combatives instructor, Infantryman and a man who has been involved in not just a couple of EP details, I'm telling you this, teaching a handstand kick as a practical method of self protection is idiotic and presents more of a danger to the person trying to pull it off than the person it's trying to disable.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Show me some "combat" Capoeira that doesn't include jumping, spinning kicks.

GM Pelligrini, I choose YOU!

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm telling you this, teaching a handstand kick as a practical method of self protection is idiotic and presents more of a danger to the person trying to pull it off than the person it's trying to disable.

point out to me where I've advocated "teaching a handstand kick as a practical method of self protection". I've not.

I'm trying to give a greater education about what capoeira really is.

are you choosing ignorance?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Methinks that he is refering to the succession of videos, all of which have been focused on acrobatic kicking.

You have told us, and I take you at your word, about functional capoeira, but thus far, nobody has posted any videos of functional capoeira.

I understand that it would be nigh impossible to catch a specifically Capoeira used against a violent attack video But are there any vids of the sort of training exercises used to train the functional material?

Daniel

 

[yorkshirelad]

methinks that he is refering to the succession of videos, all of which have been focused on acrobatic kicking.

You have told us, and i take you at your word, about functional capoeira, but thus far, nobody has posted any videos of functional capoeira.

I understand that it would be nigh impossible to catch a specifically capoeira used against a violent attack video but are there any vids of the sort of training exercises used to train the functional material?

Daniel

qtf!!

 

[Flying Crane]

Methinks that he is refering to the succession of videos, all of which have been focused on acrobatic kicking.

You have told us, and I take you at your word, about functional capoeira, but thus far, nobody has posted any videos of functional capoeira.

I understand that it would be nigh impossible to catch a specifically Capoeira used against a violent attack video But are there any vids of the sort of training exercises used to train the functional material?

Daniel

alright, I understand that tho I've not reviewed any of the videos linked other than the original one. I find most of the videos posted on youtube do not do the system (or any system for that matter) much justice.

I highly doubt also that there are any videos out there of a capoeirista trouncing the bad guys for real. Video proof does not exist for everything. Some things are gonna have to be taken on faith when we are having a long-distance discussion.

are their training videos for a more self-defense/combative oriented version of capoeira? Not to my knowledge.

here's the thing. Capoeira has a whole lot of techniques that are familiar and common to other arts. They've got front heel kicks and front snap kicks, roundhouse kicks, side kicks, crescent kicks, hook kicks, and some that are unique to capoeira like the meia lua de compasso (take your head right off your shoulders, that one will). They've got hand strikes, elbow strikes, head butts, trips, sweeps and takedowns. They've got a huge movement and footwork language, as well as unique ways to position and move and re-position, and none of this is acrobatics or "dance". It's not difficult to look at that list and realize that all it takes is a recognition that you drive in and hit someone with that stuff and you are doing what any karateka/muay thai/kenpo/whatever guy is doing. They all teach the same skills. Capoeira uses a different platform and methodology, and has some unique techniques, but in a real fight it's gonna look very much the same. The roda, the game of capoeira, creates a different mindset and that needs to be understood as something separate from real fighting. That's important. But capoeira teaches all the tools that are commonly found in many systems for fighting.

I'm the only person here who has actually listed my capoeira background. I know a few other people have some significant experience as well but none of them have bothered to list in detail. I suspect I may be the most experienced capoeirista on this forum. I don't know that for sure, but I believe it's possible. I'm trying to give a realistic description of what capoeira really is, but people want to keep arguing over a handstand or a cartwheel. I understand that is what opened the thread, but I'll say here, as (possibly) the senior ranking capoeirista on this forum, that that is not a realistic strategy for fighting, tho as I mentioned earlier I believe there CAN be some LIMITED use for such techniques, under certain circumstances.

If people wanna keep arguing over a cartwheel, well go ahead. The really silly thing about this is, I don't even train capoeira anymore and haven't done so in a number of years. I also decided, "not the right match for me", and I believe there are often some questionable and even hazardous training practices that are done in many schools, things that have a high possibility of leading to injury. But I know that underneath it all capoeira has all the potential of any system for fighting, if it is properly trained and realized. But I don't even do it anymore and the silly thing is that I'm here beating my head against a wall trying to educate people who have no experience nor understanding of capoeira, and seem hell-bent on not being educated. I don't know why I'm bothering with it because in truth I don't care what people think of it. Let 'em think it's stupid. Underestimating one's opponent is a great way to get your *** handed to you someday.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I'm the only person here who has actually listed my capoeira background. I know a few other people have some significant experience as well but none of them have bothered to list in detail. I suspect I may be the most experienced capoeirista on this forum. .

You probably are, and good for you. This may make you a little blinkered. I have a very good friend who is well versed in Aikido. He has a black belt in Kenpo and training in kickboxing, but now, and for the past 8 years, his primary art has been Aikido. He swears blind it is the ultimate art and has taken on faith all the mythical stories perpetuated by Aikidoka about Ueshiba and Takeda Sokaku. I've sparred with him, and asked him while we are sparring to try to you a control on me while we are sparring, so far he hasn't been able to. I've also asked him to try to lock me u or throw me, even by suprise when we hang out. So far, over the last 2 years, he hasn't been able to. I've even asked that his instructor try, but the guy knows better. When he tries and fails, he tells me that he hasn't reached the level of Ueshiba yet, but if Ueshiba was alive, he would be able to throw me with little contact. I don't buy it! I can't for the life of me understand why he hasn't yet tried Iriminage, I can see that working in a sparring scenario, but he hasn't so, I wait, and wait, and wait.
I've told him that Aikido's usefulness goes well beyond streetfighting. That it's a beautiful art and that it serves a greater purpose. It even introduced him to his very smoking hot wife, but he keeps insisting that Aikido is the perfect art for self preservation, when confronted by a thug. Why? Because he is blinded by his love for his art and his teacher. He's a good guy, noble, but in this case, misguided.

Now, show me an instructional video of Capoeira, where the teacher teaches a combat method of Capoeira without doing acrobatics and I mean a respected Master of the art and I'll say Capoeira is effective for self preservation. However, no matter what, noone is going to convince me that the technique Atackx pulled is viable for a violent encounter. It is impressive, it shows conditioning, it shows athleticism, but if you think it's effective , you don't understand the mechanics of a truly violent encounter.

 

[searcher]

you throw that, you better HOPE it knocks them out, cuz if it doesnt? you gonna die

I agree. I am willing to use it in knockdown, but a person would have to be completely mental to attempt it on the street.

 

[ATACX GYM]

You probably are, and good for you. This may make you a little blinkered. I have a very good friend who is well versed in Aikido. He has a black belt in Kenpo and training in kickboxing, but now, and for the past 8 years, his primary art has been Aikido. He swears blind it is the ultimate art and has taken on faith all the mythical stories perpetuated by Aikidoka about Ueshiba and Takeda Sokaku. I've sparred with him, and asked him while we are sparring to try to you a control on me while we are sparring, so far he hasn't been able to. I've also asked him to try to lock me u or throw me, even by suprise when we hang out. So far, over the last 2 years, he hasn't been able to. I've even asked that his instructor try, but the guy knows better. When he tries and fails, he tells me that he hasn't reached the level of Ueshiba yet, but if Ueshiba was alive, he would be able to throw me with little contact. I don't buy it! I can't for the life of me understand why he hasn't yet tried Iriminage, I can see that working in a sparring scenario, but he hasn't so, I wait, and wait, and wait.
I've told him that Aikido's usefulness goes well beyond streetfighting. That it's a beautiful art and that it serves a greater purpose. It even introduced him to his very smoking hot wife, but he keeps insisting that Aikido is the perfect art for self preservation, when confronted by a thug. Why? Because he is blinded by his love for his art and his teacher. He's a good guy, noble, but in this case, misguided.

Now, show me an instructional video of Capoeira, where the teacher teaches a combat method of Capoeira without doing acrobatics and I mean a respected Master of the art and I'll say Capoeira is effective for self preservation. However, no matter what, noone is going to convince me that the technique Atackx pulled is viable for a violent encounter. It is impressive, it shows conditioning, it shows athleticism, but if you think it's effective , you don't understand the mechanics of a truly violent encounter.

Flying Crane HAS attempted to educate on this thread.So have I. Flying Crane has more seniority in capoeira than do I...he's reached instructor level.Maybe even contramestre.I'm still a colored belt. But I can show you functional capoeira and HAVE shown you some already.Now,you're of the mindset that abjures combative acrobatics,and that's fine.It's funny,however,that you mentioned the "head butt" because that tech--called cabeca in capoeira--is something that we're legendary for. Flying Crane is correct in that combat functional capoeira looks very much like what a bareknuckle kickboxer,kenpo guy,gungfu man,G-R and judo man,savate guy,etc. would do because all of those techs are also a (heavily featured) part of capoeira.

I can and will show you in subsequent videos capoeira training methodology.You will see that even arts like bjj have borrowed liberally from capoeira,going from the original stilted,stiff movements of bjj to the fluid,rolling,carthwheeling,graceful,transitioning,nonstop movements and even animal movement training methods--all hallmarks of capoeira--so prevalent today. What tickles me from you guys is that you can disparage a technique like the cartwheel without having any real idea as to what the purpose application and training is behind it.I'm almost 100% certain that I can hit you guys with a cartwheel kick because of your ignorace of it. Put another way? A prime Sakuraba and others who aren't superhuman nailed cartwheel passes of the guard.The cartwheel pass became common place once its surprise factor and genuine effectiveness became known. The cartwheel has been used FOR DECADES in OLYMPIC JUDO in order to escape numerous Judo throws and turn the tables on the attacker. None of the detractors of the cartwheel can beat Sakuraba or any Olympic Judoka in a straight scrap using Judo rules or on the street h2h in self defense.They and others who aren't superhumans can cartwheel on you like the Chinese Gymnastic team and you'd be helpless. Yet you disparage it.

On top of that? Capoeira isn't limited to its acrobatics and gymnastics.As Flying Crane has said over and over and over and over again. If you want to see how we train the nonacrobatic stuff functionally? I can easily do that for you.No problem. I'm actually glad to read that request.Give me 2 weeks and I'll have about at least a dozen videos up for you. Easy money. But lots of you may claim that it's something other than capoeira,because it looks (to you) like something else.It's capoeira though; there's just likely to be some similarity to combat striking and grappling arts because the function of a thing has an impact on its form and vice versa.

 

[OzPaul]

Brian Ebersole...

 

[Archangel M]

Ring examples of individual techniques as "proof" of effectiveness is a non-starter. Ring examples are of the "1000 monkeys at typewriters" variety. Given enough examples you will see many things. Even this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9WHr0e8dV4&feature=related

Yes. parkour is an effective self-defense style IF YOU TRAIN IT RIGHT. LOL!!!

 

[OzPaul]

I was waiting for a video of the "showtime" kick. Parkour could be good if your a criminal...

 

[yorkshirelad]

Yet you disparage it...

I've disparaged the example of Capoeira that you used as a combative art. When it comes to athleticism, health, fun, even ring craft it's great! Even in ring craft only a few, exceptional people can pull it off with absollute efficiency.

[/quote]On top of that? Capoeira isn't limited to its acrobatics and gymnastics..[/quote]

Then show me Combat Capoeira being practised by a respected master. I want to see it. All you've shown so far is gymnastics. I also understand that there maybe footage of Capoeira practitioners involved in streetfights out there, but you can bet your bollocks to a barn dance, they won't be doing cartwheels and handstands when fighting thugs.

Tell me, why don't they teach handstands and cartwheels in military combatives courses? Show me footage of Fairbain and Applegate going handstands. Show me footage of Imi Lichenfeld doing them.

Your techniques is aboout as effective in combat as this: