Capoeira Curiosities

[Bigodinho]

If anyone has ever had an interest in capoeira, has ever had curiosities on its development or history, or you just want to ask question and know more about the art, this is the place to ask. I will try to answer all your question to the best of my knowledge and present capoeira in the best way possible. If you'd like a head start, check out our website at www.capoeiratexas.com.

 

[Enson]

saw your videos. they are great! where in fresno do they have a school? i live in the mountains above fresno and i would like to go and sit in on a class. is that allowed. i know in some dojos they frown on it. i have been to some kenpo dojos and others where you walk in they stop class to ask why you are there. then you tell them that you just want to observe they look at you the rest of the time during their class.

i also have a question for you. how effective in real combat is capoeira? it is very awesome to watch but i never see them actually training for combat or for self defense. it looks like they are dancing. don't get me wrong i would love to be able to do it but doesn't seem effective to me. is there anywhere i could see a video where they are using it to defend themselves? also is there any punching? looks like all kicks.
peace*note* this is posted on the other thread but i guess i would be more useful here.

 

[Bigodinho]

I'm not sure of the acutal location in Fresno, but the website is www.capoeirafresno.com. There is one major rule in capoeira, "The more the merrier." Capoeira is a social art, it's very difficult to train on your own. So we welcome all who want to come and visit, even if you just want to observe.

One thing I hope to pass on is the terminology we use in capoeira that may be very different than most people are used to. First of all 100% of the terminology is in Portuguese, which I will translate for everyone as I go along. For example, we train in Academias (Academies) as opposed to dojos. We play capoeira, as opposed to fighting or sparring. Although capoeira is first and foremost a martial art, it is considered in Brazil as the second most popular sport next to soccer. Which is why it is largely considered a Jogo (zsho-goo - Game).

As far as I know, there are no capoeira tournaments in the U.S. and most Martial Art points tournaments won't allow capoeira because of speed and power of the mosly circular kicks, and the low ground movements. However, it has been used some mixed martial art competitions, suck has UFC, Vale Tudo, and Pride Fighting Championships. I personally know and individual who is a Contra-Mestre in capoeira (A master in training, one step below a master) who fights in Vale Tudo (a mixed martial arts competition in which "anything goes" as the name suggests) and has never lost in U.S. competition. His primary art is capoeira, however he has trained Brazilian Ju-Jitsu in the past.
There is punching, but very little. More open hand slaps. These are primarily used as a last resort, because the nature of capoeira is very deceptive and sneaky, direct attacks are not used very often. Capoeira is unique in that it comes from all angles. It's makes more sense to continually move around your opponent, then to stand directly in front of them and take a kick.

 

[Bigodinho]

Just a side note on the effectiveness of capoeira. African slaves in Brazil were not allowed weapons, for obvious reasons. The only weapons they had were their hands and feet. They used capoeira as a primary resourse to fight back against their opressors, and gain their independence. For this reason, capoeira was outlawed, and to practice capoeira was a crime punishable by death. So capoeira practitioners disguised the art within a dance and used music to set the rhythm. Today, capoeira is practiced all over the world and is celebrated as a major part of the Brazilian culture.

 

[phlaw]

I don't suppose you know of anyone with Capoeira training near fargo, ND.

I have been interested in the art ever since I saw the movie "Rooftops" as a kid, and of course I am a huge fan of "Only the Strong".


Thanks

 

[Bigodinho]

The closest class I see is in South Dakota unfortunately. If you ever want to know of a class near you, go to www.capoeirista.com and click on their schools listing.

Personally I've never seen rooftops, but the capoeira scenes in that movie were choreographed by my Master, Mestre Jelon Vieira. He also choreographed capoeira scenes for the movie Brenda Starr with Brooke Shields a very long time ago... never seen that one either. And, believe it or not, there was supposed to be a capoeira scene in Boomerang with Eddie Murphy, but it was cut in final editting.

I have my issues with "Only the Strong". One good thing the movie did was bring capoeira into the forefront. It put it on the silver screen and made people aware it existed. However, the capoeira in this movie is not very good. Many people believe that Mark DeCascos only trained capoeira for the movie. This is not true. He actually took classes with Mestre Bira Almeida, also known as Mestre Acordeon, in San Francisco way before the movie. He then began his training with Mestre Amen, and while he was training the role came up and he felt it was almost fate. If you've trained capoeira for any length of time where you've come across outstanding capoeiristas, then you take a look at the movie one more time, it then becomes a good source of comedy. Eventually there will be a movie made about capoeira that shows its true nature and its origins. You'll see.

 

[Enson]

you know unfortunately this is the same with all ma movies. they have their hollywood spin on it to get viewers but they sacrifice the style they represent.

"best of the best"... tkd
"only the strong"... capoeira
all ninja films... ninjutsu
"karate kid"... karate
so on and so forth...

 

[Bigodinho]

You mean the Karate Kid wasn't real? Man, that's a dissappointment.

I read in another forum someone talking about the movie "The Quest" with Jean Claude. There's a capoeirista in the film. Black guy with long curly hair. This movie is supposedly set around the 20's. The guy is called out into the ring, where the capoeira music starts and he immediately starts his ginga (the basic capoeira "stance") and kicks, flips, the whole works. The funny thing is, the style of capoeira this guy displays wasn't invented until the mid 1930's. And even then, the style this guy displays, is a contemporary form of the style created in the 1930's. The traditional style of this capoeira was not very flashy, it was more upright with fast kicks, not very many flips. Very basic. It focused more on the martial aspect of the art. In fact, in order to move up in rank in those days, you had to show the master how you could fight off 2 or more capoeiristas at a time. It was a pretty rough way of showing off what you've learned, but that period in Brazil was a tough time in their history... especially if you were a black capoeirista. Of course, as all things do, capoeira evolved in the last 60 to 70 years to what it looks like today, fast kicks blended with acrobatics and low ground movements.

 

[DeLamar.J]

I'm not sure of the acutal location in Fresno, but the website is www.capoeirafresno.com. There is one major rule in capoeira, "The more the merrier." Capoeira is a social art, it's very difficult to train on your own. So we welcome all who want to come and visit, even if you just want to observe.

One thing I hope to pass on is the terminology we use in capoeira that may be very different than most people are used to. First of all 100% of the terminology is in Portuguese, which I will translate for everyone as I go along. For example, we train in Academias (Academies) as opposed to dojos. We play capoeira, as opposed to fighting or sparring. Although capoeira is first and foremost a martial art, it is considered in Brazil as the second most popular sport next to soccer. Which is why it is largely considered a Jogo (zsho-goo - Game).

As far as I know, there are no capoeira tournaments in the U.S. and most Martial Art points tournaments won't allow capoeira because of speed and power of the mosly circular kicks, and the low ground movements. However, it has been used some mixed martial art competitions, suck has UFC, Vale Tudo, and Pride Fighting Championships. I personally know and individual who is a Contra-Mestre in capoeira (A master in training, one step below a master) who fights in Vale Tudo (a mixed martial arts competition in which "anything goes" as the name suggests) and has never lost in U.S. competition. His primary art is capoeira, however he has trained Brazilian Ju-Jitsu in the past.
There is punching, but very little. More open hand slaps. These are primarily used as a last resort, because the nature of capoeira is very deceptive and sneaky, direct attacks are not used very often. Capoeira is unique in that it comes from all angles. It's makes more sense to continually move around your opponent, then to stand directly in front of them and take a kick.

I bet he didnt use capoeira techniques to win the fight either, I have a feeling he used BJJ techniques. Because in all my years of training in the MA, I have NEVER seen a capoeira fighter use there techniques effectively against a good opponent, however , I have seen it used effectively against very poor compitition. I respect your art, but please dont try to pass it off as an effective means of self defence because it is not. I dont want people joining it thinking there learning self defence, if they join they have a right to know what capoeira is really all about.

 

[Bigodinho]

Actually, James, he did primarily use capoeira. He is a personal friend of mine and I've actually seen him compete. And I'm sure he would beg to differ on your opinion. I respect your opinion, but I can see it comes from inexperience and ignorance of the art itself. The art was created as a means for liberation, a way for slaves to fight back. In the early 1930's, much like in the U.S., blacks were not considered equals and were very oppressed by law enforcement and military. Master Bimba created a style of capoeira called Luta Regional Bahiana (Regional Fight of Bahia), or Capoeira Regional for short, by combining the traditional form created by slaves, with Batuque, another Afro-Brazilian martial art in which he was also a master. His belief was this new style, which focused more on the martial aspect of the art, was better suited to defend themselves from their oppressors. He was correct. After many years, capoeira became legal and police and military actually began training capoeira as part of their training. Today, as many arts tend to do, Capoeira has evolved into what you see today... a fast paced game laced with fast circular kicks, straight kicks, acrobatics and low ground movements. The dance aspect was added in the mid 1800's in order to hide its deadly nature. So if you look at capoeira and see a dance, its has done its job to fool the common viewer... like yourself, James. My Master, Jelon Vieira competed in Mixed Martial Arts tournaments in the early eighties, but was often disqualified due to his low ground movements and the speed and power of his kicks. He would often knock his opponents unconcious, even with protective gear. He also trained U.S. Special Forces troops, Navy Seals and Green Berets, in Capoeira. He has been called upon by many other Martial Art Academies to teach Capoeira Workshops all around the world. I can't see why he would have accomplished so much with a Martial Art that is not a good form of self defense. So you see, capoeira is very effective ... and if anyone has any doubts, I would challenge you to try for yourself. I guarantee you will have a lot of fun learning who to defend your self.
Oh, and by the way... we always tell our students what capoeira is really about. It's about self determination, self empowerment, community, family, culture, self expression, peace, rhythm, soul, creativity... and we can't forget about self defense.

 

[Phoenix44]

I played a few months, but then I lost my job and couldn't afford the capoeira classes in addition to my karate classes anymore. It was a lot of fun, I met cool people, and worked muscles I didn't even know I had.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Seems like everyone either is a green beret, or has trained them these days.
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quote
It's about self determination, self empowerment, community, family, culture, self expression, peace, rhythm, soul, creativity... and we can't forget about self defense.
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I would agree its about all those things above, but the self defence part.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Seems like everyone either is a green beret, or has trained them these days.
------------------------------------------------------
quote
It's about self determination, self empowerment, community, family, culture, self expression, peace, rhythm, soul, creativity... and we can't forget about self defense.
-------------------------------------------------------
I would agree its about all those things above, but the self defence part.

I have a hat, and I train it regularly lol.

 

[Bigodinho]

Seems like everyone either is a green beret, or has trained them these days.
------------------------------------------------------
quote
It's about self determination, self empowerment, community, family, culture, self expression, peace, rhythm, soul, creativity... and we can't forget about self defense.
-------------------------------------------------------
I would agree its about all those things above, but the self defence part.

If you want to downplay the accomplishments of another person by saying, "Seems like everyone either is a green beret, or has trained them.." that's your perogative, but you do not know anything about my Mestre (Master in Portuguese), so please don't comment on things you know nothing about, that includes capoeira. My Mestre, by the way, is the only Capoeira Master currently in the Martial Arts Hall of Fame. He is also in the New York Hall of Fame and is a world reknowned Choreographer through his work with his Afro-Brazilian dance company, DanceBrazil. They have traveled the world showcasing capoeira and Afro-Brazilian Dance, and have even played for the President of the United States. Mestre Jelon is well known not only in the world of capoeira, but in the MA world also. Usually I try and educate individuals with an ignorant mindset towards capoeira, such as yourself, but don't downplay my Mestre's accomplishments. Believe what you will about capoeira, but my Mestre is like a father to me and I take that personally. Please, if you don't have anything constructive to say, or any opinions that have validity, stay off this thread.

 

[Bigodinho]

I played a few months, but then I lost my job and couldn't afford the capoeira classes in addition to my karate classes anymore. It was a lot of fun, I met cool people, and worked muscles I didn't even know I had.

I'm glad you enjoyed. I hope that one day you can find your way back to capoeira. Let me ask you a question. Did you feel that with what you were learning, although you were only there for a few months, if applied correctly, could you defend yourself if you had to? Also, what group did you train with and who was your instructor?

 

[DeLamar.J]

If you want to downplay the accomplishments of another person by saying, "Seems like everyone either is a green beret, or has trained them.." that's your perogative, but you do not know anything about my Mestre (Master in Portuguese), so please don't comment on things you know nothing about, that includes capoeira. My Mestre, by the way, is the only Capoeira Master currently in the Martial Arts Hall of Fame. He is also in the New York Hall of Fame and is a world reknowned Choreographer through his work with his Afro-Brazilian dance company, DanceBrazil. They have traveled the world showcasing capoeira and Afro-Brazilian Dance, and have even played for the President of the United States. Mestre Jelon is well known not only in the world of capoeira, but in the MA world also. Usually I try and educate individuals with an ignorant mindset towards capoeira, such as yourself, but don't downplay my Mestre's accomplishments. Believe what you will about capoeira, but my Mestre is like a father to me and I take that personally. Please, if you don't have anything constructive to say, or any opinions that have validity, stay off this thread.

My Mestre, my mestre, my mestre. Im sure the masters of capoeira are very skilled, and could most likely use parts of the art for self defence. But they are very uncommon people. Mayby only a few of the people in world could even use capoeira effectively in a real fight. Im not taking anythig away from any master. But they are unique in there ways. Most people who practice capoeira however Im sure cannot use it in self defence, and I would also bet that even your master knows that no one is going to stand there and let you flip around and kick them.
You are fooling yourself. You need to accept this is not a self defence art. And anyone who could use it as one, is most likely a master, and would realize how unpracticle it is, and modify the techniques for a more practical approach. I have never seen anyone in capoeira in MMA and I never will. If so they will be humilliated when they try those flashy techniques. Im sure most capoeira fighters know this and thats why they will avoid it so as not to embarass the art. Im not going to let you fool some of the more uneducated martial artists on this forum into thinking they can learn self defence by taking capoeira.
You constantly spout off your masters name when he is most likely one of few people in the world who practice this art that could even come close to applying it in a real situation agaist a good fighter. I get the feeling you either watch to many movies, banna naaa naa waaayyy. Or have not been in many real fights.

 

[Bigodinho]

Most people who practice capoeira however Im sure cannot use it in self defence, and I would also bet that even your master knows that no one is going to stand there and let you flip around and kick them.
You are fooling yourself. You need to accept this is not a self defence art. And anyone who could use it as one, is most likely a master, and would realize how unpracticle it is, and modify the techniques for a more practical approach.

I'd like to hear you tell this to my master, and the other masters of this martial art and get their opinion.

I have never seen anyone in capoeira in MMA and I never will. If so they will be humilliated when they try those flashy techniques. Im sure most capoeira fighters know this and thats why they will avoid it so as not to embarass the art.

You obviously chose to ignore the story of my friend, WHO HAS NEVER LOST IN U.S. COMPETITION using capoeira in MMA tournaments. Or my master, who was often disqualified for KNOCKING OTHER MARTIAL ARTITST UNCONCIOUS.

Im not going to let you fool some of the more uneducated martial artists on this forum into thinking they can learn self defence by taking capoeira... I get the feeling you either watch to many movies, banna naaa naa waaayyy. Or have not been in many real fights.

You have proven my point. You're ignorant. Your talking out of your a** because you know nothing about capoeira. Your embarrasing yourself trying to tell me that capoeira has no practical application, when you've never trained the art yourself. This coming from a person who can't even spell self defense correctly.

If there's anyone reading this thread, please... please don't pay attention to this person who obviously knows nothing about this very beautiful yet deadly art form, except from what HE'S seen in movies... and it's Parana Ei, not Bana na.. whatever the heck you said.

One thing we learn in our class is that if you ever need to use this martial art, obviously we would not flip, or do cartwheels or handstands, unless there was a practical reason for doing that movement. As an escape, for example. But capoeira is way more than just flash, as many people often think it is. Capoeira is trickery and deception. It's making your opponent believe you're going to do one thing and coming back with another. Some very talented capoeiristas use flips to confuse their opponent. I personally wouldn't suggest trying that, but it has been done before. But this is what makes capoeira effective. It's unpredictable nature. The flips, the acrobatics... that is for show. In class, we are not taught flips. If you want to learn flips either you have to learn on your own or go to a gymnastics class. One thing that is great about capoeira is that it comes at you from all angles. I am currently training with an instructor who moves faster than most human being should move. His kicks are unbelievably fast and powerful, yet he has incredible control. He, as well as every capoeira instructor I know, could easily defend themselves in any situation. Capoeira is an all encompassing art form. It's martial arts, it's beauty, it's grace, it's power and strength, it's music and song, it's culture and art, and most importantly, it IS self defense.

Please pay no attention to anyone who tells you, "This is not good..." if they know nothing about what their talking about. If you were an alkoholic, would you take advice on how to quit from someone who's never taken a sip? Would you take advice on how to quit smoking from someone who's never smoked. Would you take MA arts lessons from someone who's never practiced? Don't listen to what this person says. I've studied this MA for the last fives years, 4 to 5 days a week, two hours a class. I know my MA, and trust me, if you apply the fundamentals correctly, it is an excellent form of self defense.

 

[Enson]

My Mestre, my mestre, my mestre. Im sure the masters of capoeira are very skilled, and could most likely use parts of the art for self defence. But they are very uncommon people. Mayby only a few of the people in world could even use capoeira effectively in a real fight. Im not taking anythig away from any master. But they are unique in there ways. Most people who practice capoeira however Im sure cannot use it in self defence, and I would also bet that even your master knows that no one is going to stand there and let you flip around and kick them.
You are fooling yourself. You need to accept this is not a self defence art. And anyone who could use it as one, is most likely a master, and would realize how unpracticle it is, and modify the techniques for a more practical approach. I have never seen anyone in capoeira in MMA and I never will. If so they will be humilliated when they try those flashy techniques. Im sure most capoeira fighters know this and thats why they will avoid it so as not to embarass the art. Im not going to let you fool some of the more uneducated martial artists on this forum into thinking they can learn self defence by taking capoeira.
You constantly spout off your masters name when he is most likely one of few people in the world who practice this art that could even come close to applying it in a real situation agaist a good fighter. I get the feeling you either watch to many movies, banna naaa naa waaayyy. Or have not been in many real fights.

man calm down! don't be so confrontational. let the guy express his feelings. no one bashes you for doing the "crane" technique or walking around with a drum in your hands. or even posing as jean CON van damme. now its apparent i don't know much about karate so i shouldn't speak much about the art. if the guy is proud of his "mestre" maybe you should try to duplicate that and be proud of your instructor. and if you were no one would bash you for it. relax you'll feel better if you do. i'm not trying to start anything with you. in fact i have always been impressed by your post. it was quite shocking to see you fly off the handle like that. i think you should apologize. show what ma has taught you. those are just my thoughts.
peace

 

[Bigodinho]

man calm down! don't be so confrontational. let the guy express his feelings. no one bashes you for doing the "crane" technique or walking around with a drum in your hands. or even posing as jean CON van damme. now its apparent i don't know much about karate so i shouldn't speak much about the art. if the guy is proud of his "mestre" maybe you should try to duplicate that and be proud of your instructor. and if you were no one would bash you for it. relax you'll feel better if you do. i'm not trying to start anything with you. in fact i have always been impressed by your post. it was quite shocking to see you fly off the handle like that. i think you should apologize. show what ma has taught you. those are just my thoughts.
peace

There's no need for him to apologize, he's entitled to his opinion, although it is clearly not based on fact.

Although I have only trained capoeira, I have always expressed an interest in all MA. I would never say a MA is an ineffective form of self defense, especially if I have no experience with that MA whatsoever.

I started this thread so that people who may not understand the philosophies behind capoeira, or how it exactly works could ask questions or give their opinions. He gave his, however fictional it may be, now it's time to move on. I appreciate what you said Enson. Thanks.

 

[WLMantisKid]

I dont think anyone has the right to say an art is not effective in self-defense unless that person has trained under every instructor that art has to offer. Otherwise it's just plain ignorance. DeLamar has a cocky attitude and thinks he knows everything about every art. He'd likely tell me that Praying Mantis Kung Fu is not a self defense art, yet he's probably never fought anyone who took it.

Aside from that, Capoiera has always interested me. Especially back in my days of playing Eddie Gordo on Tekken 3. It's a beautiful martial art that looks like it requires a load of flexibility and body strength that I am a long way from as of yet (im still working on it ). I have no doubt that I would not want to get into a fight with an experienced capoiera player, as one good shot from their legs would likely end the fight for me.

but a question for your Bigodinho - Im planning on taking a trip down to Texas probably in the spring to see my girlfriend among other things - would it be possible for me to stop in and maybe just take a free class or watch one? It'd definitely be one more check for things I want to do in life.