Doing a search for something recently, I tripped over a post by Ben Cole that addressed the importance of a living, breathing instructor. To paraphrase it, he described how one of his instructors corrected him as he worked a particular move, telling Ben to put his foot HERE, not THERE. The correction was repeated, and somewhere along the way, Ben asked "why?" The instructor told him, essentially, "because that's where your foot has to be to do this." In time, Ben came to realize the why -- which amounted to because that's the right place for the foot. That's not a correction you're going to get from a video tape. And it's not a lesson you'll learn without the teacher being there to notice and correct it. (Whether the student will listen or the teacher will bother is a different discussion.)
Can one learn from instructional videos?
- Thread starter chenlihong
- Start date
OP
chenlihong
White Belt
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2010
- Messages
- 4
- Reaction score
- 0
- Thread Starter
- #63
Dear members,
Thank you all for responding. There were several insightful replies and I'm sure many others will be benefited.
I was hell bent on learning 'anyhow' and some of the member's comments here did not discourage me enough. So i bought several videos of taiji and xingyiquan. Some of them were very informative, others average.
After a few weeks of follwing instructions from videos, I began to understand it was going nowhere, and it would never go anywhere. I was giving it 3-4 hours a day. I improved my balance. My legs certainly became a LOT stronger and my stances firm. But after that,it was depressing. Taiji wasn't any different from an elegant dance, and xingyi beng quan had no more power than my usual punches. There is noone to 'correct' my posture. I didn't expect to achieve anything in 3 months. But there was a feeling that its all hopeless. No matter how hard I trained, I would not go beyond a certain limit, and the limit in question doesn't even cover basics.I can now stand in san ti shi for 20 minutes each side, knowing that in most likelihood I am doing it wrong.
Nonetheless, there was a lot of valuable information in videos of yang zheng duo and Di Guoyong. It can help you, but it can't teach. Not to beginners atleast.
I've finally decided to move to Mumbai to learn from a sifu who had taught me before for a few months. He teaches Daoqiquan (Li family system). A rare artist, teaches a very few (selected) people, and doesn't charge a penny.
Thank you all again for comments. Good luck with training
Deepak
Thank you all for responding. There were several insightful replies and I'm sure many others will be benefited.
I was hell bent on learning 'anyhow' and some of the member's comments here did not discourage me enough. So i bought several videos of taiji and xingyiquan. Some of them were very informative, others average.
After a few weeks of follwing instructions from videos, I began to understand it was going nowhere, and it would never go anywhere. I was giving it 3-4 hours a day. I improved my balance. My legs certainly became a LOT stronger and my stances firm. But after that,it was depressing. Taiji wasn't any different from an elegant dance, and xingyi beng quan had no more power than my usual punches. There is noone to 'correct' my posture. I didn't expect to achieve anything in 3 months. But there was a feeling that its all hopeless. No matter how hard I trained, I would not go beyond a certain limit, and the limit in question doesn't even cover basics.I can now stand in san ti shi for 20 minutes each side, knowing that in most likelihood I am doing it wrong.
Nonetheless, there was a lot of valuable information in videos of yang zheng duo and Di Guoyong. It can help you, but it can't teach. Not to beginners atleast.
I've finally decided to move to Mumbai to learn from a sifu who had taught me before for a few months. He teaches Daoqiquan (Li family system). A rare artist, teaches a very few (selected) people, and doesn't charge a penny.
Thank you all again for comments. Good luck with training
Deepak
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Thank you for coming back and giving us this update. I have a tremendous amount of respect for your honesty. Best of luck to you.
coffeerox
Green Belt
Do It Yourself (anything) is very difficult. Anywhere you go to ask how to do something yourself, you will be met with people who will tell you no, every time, any place.
It's not impossible. I started my Wing Chun journey about a year, to a year and a half ago. Form-wise, it's taken me that long to learn how the form should be practiced and why. (btw, my progress is Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu) The "why" is easy. A good quality instructor that understands how to teach on video will show you why, and go through common mistakes, etc.
The "how" is difficult. It takes a lot of research and input from various sources. There are subtleties within the form that may be transmitted on video but difficult to grasp even if it's explained. Practicing it is also difficult if you do not have all the information. This is where the difference between quality and poor instruction comes into play. A good quality video instructor needs to be very in-depth and easily understood.
To do anything yourself, you need to learn how to learn. You gotta be able to pick up on stuff and be able to absorb and put this knowledge into practice. How else do you learn something? You need a clear lesson plan. Lesson plans will have to be custom built. You need to research to find out where to start, the contents of what is being taught and then buying the materials (DVD in this case)
Like I said, not impossible. Bruce Lee did it through manuals if you want to compare non-personal instruction sources. Let me explain to you why it worked for Bruce. Bruce not only learned from manuals and videos, but he took this knowledge and put it into practice. He stress tested what worked/didn't and what fit into his style. I would say that it's a necessity to have training partners so that you are applying what has been taught to you in the videos. Your partner has to try and resist so that you know if your technique is failing or succeeding.
If you do not have a training partner, things will look pretty grim. I've personally been through this. You HAVE to have a training partner. You COULD develop an offense based on your styles attacks by yourself, but if you do not have the first blow or the advantage, then your defense will fail, your offense will fail. You can try to apply the concepts but you will learn the hard way.
Anyways I've been rambling on for too long. Personally, having been on this journey, I don't think I can recommend doing it yourself. Having done it myself, I'm at a point where I can and know how to do it but I can't teach anybody this process. It's your own self-journey.
It's not impossible. I started my Wing Chun journey about a year, to a year and a half ago. Form-wise, it's taken me that long to learn how the form should be practiced and why. (btw, my progress is Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu) The "why" is easy. A good quality instructor that understands how to teach on video will show you why, and go through common mistakes, etc.
The "how" is difficult. It takes a lot of research and input from various sources. There are subtleties within the form that may be transmitted on video but difficult to grasp even if it's explained. Practicing it is also difficult if you do not have all the information. This is where the difference between quality and poor instruction comes into play. A good quality video instructor needs to be very in-depth and easily understood.
To do anything yourself, you need to learn how to learn. You gotta be able to pick up on stuff and be able to absorb and put this knowledge into practice. How else do you learn something? You need a clear lesson plan. Lesson plans will have to be custom built. You need to research to find out where to start, the contents of what is being taught and then buying the materials (DVD in this case)
Like I said, not impossible. Bruce Lee did it through manuals if you want to compare non-personal instruction sources. Let me explain to you why it worked for Bruce. Bruce not only learned from manuals and videos, but he took this knowledge and put it into practice. He stress tested what worked/didn't and what fit into his style. I would say that it's a necessity to have training partners so that you are applying what has been taught to you in the videos. Your partner has to try and resist so that you know if your technique is failing or succeeding.
If you do not have a training partner, things will look pretty grim. I've personally been through this. You HAVE to have a training partner. You COULD develop an offense based on your styles attacks by yourself, but if you do not have the first blow or the advantage, then your defense will fail, your offense will fail. You can try to apply the concepts but you will learn the hard way.
Anyways I've been rambling on for too long. Personally, having been on this journey, I don't think I can recommend doing it yourself. Having done it myself, I'm at a point where I can and know how to do it but I can't teach anybody this process. It's your own self-journey.
I know that nothing has been posted in this thread for a while, but I was surprised to see that no one brought up Yang Lunchan. According to Yang style tradition, Yang first started learning Tai Chi by spying on sessions through a hole in the wall and mimicking what he saw. I don't know about Chen style, but it would be a little hypocritical for a Yang style practitioner to tell you that you can't learn Tai Chi through video.
I don't know much about Qigong. I used to do breathing exercises and I "invented" one of my own that I practiced for about half an hour a day. When I went to a Qigong teacher in my area, he asked what exercises I was already doing, and I explained the breathing exercise that I had come up with. He gave me a worried look, told me what I was doing was embryonic breathing, and that if I continued the chi would cause my blood pressure would shoot through the roof. I have a blood pressure cuff and had been monitoring it ever since I started and had noticed a dramatic drop in my blood pressure since I had started embryonic breathing. I told him I intended to continue unless I saw signs of health trouble. He told me that my blood pressure monitor must be off and that, if I planned to continue, I was no longer welcome as his student. My physician confirmed I was right about my blood pressure, and I stopped seeing the teacher.
An in-person teacher is preferable to videos, but when there is no teacher available (or at least no qualified teacher), a video from a good teacher could be beneficial. Don't go around calling yourself a master just because you've finished a video series, but don't buy it when people tell you that your hours of practice are all for nothing.
I don't know much about Qigong. I used to do breathing exercises and I "invented" one of my own that I practiced for about half an hour a day. When I went to a Qigong teacher in my area, he asked what exercises I was already doing, and I explained the breathing exercise that I had come up with. He gave me a worried look, told me what I was doing was embryonic breathing, and that if I continued the chi would cause my blood pressure would shoot through the roof. I have a blood pressure cuff and had been monitoring it ever since I started and had noticed a dramatic drop in my blood pressure since I had started embryonic breathing. I told him I intended to continue unless I saw signs of health trouble. He told me that my blood pressure monitor must be off and that, if I planned to continue, I was no longer welcome as his student. My physician confirmed I was right about my blood pressure, and I stopped seeing the teacher.
An in-person teacher is preferable to videos, but when there is no teacher available (or at least no qualified teacher), a video from a good teacher could be beneficial. Don't go around calling yourself a master just because you've finished a video series, but don't buy it when people tell you that your hours of practice are all for nothing.
oaktree
Master of Arts
Ah! But did Yang Lu chan learn from watching videos?
I do wonder how true this story is. I also wonder how long he was watching
them I would think if he correcting the other students forms as some accounts say then either:
1.Yang Lu Chan is a genius gifted martial art prodigy
2. He watched for many many years and was able to correct people just starting out like beginners (maybe he corrected them to a degree but still not 100% accurate.
Might have been if he knew some of the form and he was trying to correct beginners maybe Chen Chang Xiang then decided to accept him.
3. He was actually training with someone in Chen village either Chen Chang Xiang or another Chen villager and we don't know. Alot of it is speculation on my part perhaps someone with a better understanding of history can shed some light.
Entirely from a video? well...most martial artist in multiple styles agree
teaching yourself thru videos without a teacher to guide you doesn't seem to work very well. I can go thru reasons why but I think the last couple of pages have said more than enough about it.
I don't know much about Qigong either.
You invented a Qigong form? That's great!!!
Heh, who needs a Qigong teacher when you can make your own up. Embryonic breathing?! My goodness!! I am working on translating a Taoist work on that subject or was it a different subject.....
Was it really Embryonic breathing because that would involve you knowing some Qigong seeing as its um...Pretty high level Qigong too.....
He meant(or should have meant) your Shen would shoot thru the roof.
According to the writings the Shen becomes Ling Shen 灵神 when doing embryotic breathing correctly and if you are not refining Jing into Qi and Qi into Shen and so on and so on,
then no you are not doing embyro breathing if you are not following the correct theory of it. It is nearly impossible to grasp with out a teacher and further more, even with a teacher it is said something like 1 out of a 1,000 gets it.
I have not heard of anyone who does embryonic breathing correctly have high blood pressure from it.
sDrop in blood pressure is normal considering that the breathing done is very slow, deep and relaxed. So I am not surprised.
Ya its kinda of disrespectful to tell your teacher "hey I know more than you do with the Qigong I created, and despite how ever many years you have and such I am going to ignore you" I personally would tell you there is the door too.
I want to train in a certain style its not here in Sesame street so I could learn from videos and deluded myself into thinking I know it or wait work hard and go to the source and learn it correctly.
I learned that there is an easy way to do things and the right way to do things which way you choose speaks volumes about who you are.
There's a difference between watching an ongoing class and watching a video. If you watch an ongoing class, you'll see the same lessons presented different ways to different people. The teacher will recognize mistakes, and correct them, and you may find them in your own training. The class is not static. A video is. Once recorded, that's how it is. There's no adjustment or chance to see someone corrected and recognize your own errors.
At least the approaches where you're regularly communicating with a teacher, and swapping videos have a chance to have your errors caught and corrected. I'm not saying merely sending a testing video, I'm talking actual regular trading or at least sending of videos... You're still going to be behind the curve because you'll still stand a good chance of embedding poor techniques and errors in your training...
if you are training CMA, especially learning from a chinese teacher's video, i can certainly tell you that you will learn nothing.it's a waste of time.
because i know most of them will never tell you the key parts of the style.
because i know most of them will never tell you the key parts of the style.
do you know later yang became the disciple of CHEN?
No, and as others have pointed out, watching a class is more beneficial than watching a video. I'll admit that freely. And let me reiterate that a teacher is preferable to a video. If there is a teacher in your area, I beg you, go to the teacher. A week with a teacher is probably better than a year of videos. But if there are no teachers in your area, I fully believe you can learn the basics from videos. Will you master the long form? No, of course not. Can you get pretty good at parting the horse's mane? You betcha.
No question about that.
According to the story--and, by all means, take it with a grain of salt, I always encourage skepticism--he became better than any student in the class just by watching and mimicking. I'm not suggesting you can do the same by watching videos, but I think it is way out of bounds to claim, as others seem to be claiming, that you can't learn anything about CMA of value from videos.
I'm fine with speculation about this. Thanks for the food for thought.
I understand the arguments. And let me repeat: I don't think you are going to become a martial arts master from watching videos. Anyone who has been in a class, even one, has a leg up on you. But I just don't buy that you can't learn anything of value from these videos. I have some western boxing videos. Did I become an awesome boxer by watching them? No, but I learned some moves I didn't know before and, though practice, was better off than I was before I watched the videos. I realize CMA are more involved, but I'm certain you can at least learn a few stances and some moves. Again, having a teacher is better, but if a teacher isn't an option, by all means, watch some videos.
Oh nononononono, all I'm claiming to have invented is a breathing exercise, that's it. A purely physical exercise I use to relax. And I put invented in quotes deliberately. I'm sure thousands of other people have stumbled upon the exercise and I'm sure thousands of other people have perfected it more than I have. I was doing abdominal breathing when I realized that I really like the pause between breaths, when you get this kind of fuzzy feeling and your breath almost seems to be caught in your nose. Inhalation and exhalation kind of become one. There is some movement there, but not enough to even move a feather. I'm still breathing, but it becomes entirely effortless and still, almost like I'm breathing through my skin. I am inhaling and I am exhaling, but it happens over the course of several minutes. I love it.
Again, let me repeat: I know nothing about Qigong. This story wasn't meant to illustrate that you don't need a teacher, it was meant to illustrate that some teachers aren't that great. In this case, my teacher warned me that my exercise was dangerous and, when faced with empirical evidence that he was wrong, chose to believe that he knew more about my blood pressure than my physician or an actual monitor.
The breathing exercise I do isn't Qigong. This teacher called it embryonic breathing, but all I'm calling it is a breathing exercise. There is no philosophy behind it except that it is good for my meditation. I no longer believe in Qi or Shen or Jing in any literal sense and I don't do anything to intentionally cultivate them.
Then I'm not doing embryonic breathing. The only theory behind what I do is that it is a physical exercise that helps me relax. Again, the teacher was the one who called in embryonic breathing and told me it was dangerous.
Maybe so. Like I said, I know nothing about Qigong.
Neither have I
Bingo.
That isn't actually what happened. What happened was he told me that my exercise had a very specific dangerous side effect and I already had empirical evidence that he was wrong. I never claimed to know more about Qigong than he does, but my doctor and my blood pressure cuff know more about my blood pressure than he does. And you have pointed out errors in what he said above, so obviously we are in agreement that this guy was just dead wrong.
Getting advice from a video and working hard are not mutually exclusive. That said, I admire your discipline and I wish you the best of luck.
I agree, but I think we can also agree that trying to learn from a video isn't easy at all. The easy way and the right way are about your effort, not your teaching medium.
Yep, but before Chen allowed him to be a disciple (according to tradition), he learned by watching and mimicking.
The short answer is - no.
You can get good insights into a style, or use videos to revise what you have already learnt, but you cannot learn. No more than you can learn effectively from a book. Much of martial arts, especially internal martial arts, is about feeling and reacting. A DVD does not provide that.
You can get good insights into a style, or use videos to revise what you have already learnt, but you cannot learn. No more than you can learn effectively from a book. Much of martial arts, especially internal martial arts, is about feeling and reacting. A DVD does not provide that.
Let me say that you can learn something from books, articles, and videos. But what you learn should be used as a supplement to what you learn from a teacher. Like what the others have said, you miss out on the principles and mechanics of the art when you try to learn on your own. I learned this from experience when a group of us used a video (and some books) to learn the Ch'eng Man-Ching 37 Postures form. In 6 months we learned a "form", but we were merely moving around waving our arms in the air. When the group started learning from a teacher, we started over from the beginning.
And as important as it is to learn from a teacher, you need to learn from a good teacher. A bad teacher, or merely one lacking in knowledge and skill, can lead you nowhere fast.
Fyn
And as important as it is to learn from a teacher, you need to learn from a good teacher. A bad teacher, or merely one lacking in knowledge and skill, can lead you nowhere fast.
Fyn
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I'm always amazed when people want to keep coming back to this and continue to argue the merits and possibilities of video instruction.
If Yardmeat wants to continue the fantasy, it's no sweat off my back.
Chenlihong, the one who started this thread, has already come back and shared his experience with his attempts at video instruction: dead end. I'm happy that he learned something from the experiment and that he came back here to share it with the rest of us. It bears out what most of us have been saying for a long time.
For those others who want to keep pretending, well go ahead. It does add to the comic relief around here.
If Yardmeat wants to continue the fantasy, it's no sweat off my back.
Chenlihong, the one who started this thread, has already come back and shared his experience with his attempts at video instruction: dead end. I'm happy that he learned something from the experiment and that he came back here to share it with the rest of us. It bears out what most of us have been saying for a long time.
For those others who want to keep pretending, well go ahead. It does add to the comic relief around here.
oaktree
Master of Arts
Yardmeat,
Rather then give lengthy answers back to you it is my opinion nothing fruitful with come about trying to explain things to you.
Good luck with your training.
Rather then give lengthy answers back to you it is my opinion nothing fruitful with come about trying to explain things to you.
Good luck with your training.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
He could go back and read thru the thread. I think everything that needs to be said already has been said.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Yardmeat
For crying out loud if you are going to use Yang Luchan to justify idiocy and take a poke at yang style at least use the story right.
1) Yang Luchan Trained Changquan (long Fist) before ever going to train with Chen Changxing. And Yang Luchan was allegedly not to bad a Changquan and he had trained with a real live sifu. And as much as many Taiji people hate to admit it Taiji is pretty much a changquan but different.
2) He went to train with Chen Changxing however there is one heck of a lot of controversy as to what Yang Luchan was actually taught and how he was taught.
Yang Luchan is listed as a student of Chen Changxing but the Chen family so that means he was thought of as a student by Chen Changxing.
Did he learn by looking through the fence, possibly but that is figuratively speaking not literally. He was possibly being taught by Chen bit nothing of depth. HE allegedly found where Chen taught the other members of his family and watched the class. HE used this to build upon what he had already been taught by Chen or he used this to build on his Changquan.
The alleged fight that he allegedly had that got him to be accepted as a student of Chen Changxing may or may not have happened and it is not known, if the fight occurred, is he won by using Chen family Taijiquan (by the way it was not called taijiquan then, more likely Chen Paoqui) or if he won using the long fist he knew with Chen bits thrown in. Either way it allegedly impressed Chen Changxing enough to take him as a student… this is of course if it ever happened at all.
Can you learn form a video? Yes if you are INCREDIBLY talented and I have only meant 2 in 30 years of MA that were talented enough and they both had backgrounds in MA. The average person, myself included, could at best get something that looked similar but had no power and was missing one heck of a lot of the REALLY important hard to see small stuff.
You got very good and rather correct answers, you may have not liked them but the fact is they are right and your not.
If you want to learn form a video go right ahead, frankly I don’t care. Now quit trying to convince people that know better and go watch taiji TV.
For crying out loud if you are going to use Yang Luchan to justify idiocy and take a poke at yang style at least use the story right.
1) Yang Luchan Trained Changquan (long Fist) before ever going to train with Chen Changxing. And Yang Luchan was allegedly not to bad a Changquan and he had trained with a real live sifu. And as much as many Taiji people hate to admit it Taiji is pretty much a changquan but different.
2) He went to train with Chen Changxing however there is one heck of a lot of controversy as to what Yang Luchan was actually taught and how he was taught.
Yang Luchan is listed as a student of Chen Changxing but the Chen family so that means he was thought of as a student by Chen Changxing.
Did he learn by looking through the fence, possibly but that is figuratively speaking not literally. He was possibly being taught by Chen bit nothing of depth. HE allegedly found where Chen taught the other members of his family and watched the class. HE used this to build upon what he had already been taught by Chen or he used this to build on his Changquan.
The alleged fight that he allegedly had that got him to be accepted as a student of Chen Changxing may or may not have happened and it is not known, if the fight occurred, is he won by using Chen family Taijiquan (by the way it was not called taijiquan then, more likely Chen Paoqui) or if he won using the long fist he knew with Chen bits thrown in. Either way it allegedly impressed Chen Changxing enough to take him as a student… this is of course if it ever happened at all.
Can you learn form a video? Yes if you are INCREDIBLY talented and I have only meant 2 in 30 years of MA that were talented enough and they both had backgrounds in MA. The average person, myself included, could at best get something that looked similar but had no power and was missing one heck of a lot of the REALLY important hard to see small stuff.
You got very good and rather correct answers, you may have not liked them but the fact is they are right and your not.
If you want to learn form a video go right ahead, frankly I don’t care. Now quit trying to convince people that know better and go watch taiji TV.
Honestly, I'm in two minds about the ability to learn from video/online.
Up until about a week or two ago I would quite have happily said it was impossible to do anything beyond a mimicry of the style. Then I found a website with an ENORMOUS amount of instructional videos. Short 5 minute clips on individual things. I personally am only using it as a reference point for some things I am learning from my Sifu in person.
However, I could easily see someone learning from these. Because differently to most videos, the instructor constantly advises to have a partner to test things on (like a friend in a class learning together) and you can film yourself doing the practice, with a partner again so he can see how you react to another person and preferably from multiple angles. Then he films an individual response showing you where you're going wrong and how to correct it.
I've also known a person to learn Michuan via distance, a similar method for a while, then arranging to pay for their instructor to fly out and give seminars. She's worked very very hard and is making progress. Of course the seminars have helped.
I will agree, there is NO way you will learn martial arts from scratch without some form of professional feedback. Unless you're a freak, or you've had prior instruction and are learning a related system. Can I see someone who has mastered Chen style learning Yang by video? Yes I can. And if they were taught properly originally, they'll probably do it better than most of the Yang guys out there. (Since the average is so low, not dissing those people who really have mastered it, but Yang is normally the 'Health Tai Chi')
But for the general Average Joe with no experience learning from a video? Get somebody to teach you, even by distance and pay to go to seminars every so often.
Up until about a week or two ago I would quite have happily said it was impossible to do anything beyond a mimicry of the style. Then I found a website with an ENORMOUS amount of instructional videos. Short 5 minute clips on individual things. I personally am only using it as a reference point for some things I am learning from my Sifu in person.
However, I could easily see someone learning from these. Because differently to most videos, the instructor constantly advises to have a partner to test things on (like a friend in a class learning together) and you can film yourself doing the practice, with a partner again so he can see how you react to another person and preferably from multiple angles. Then he films an individual response showing you where you're going wrong and how to correct it.
I've also known a person to learn Michuan via distance, a similar method for a while, then arranging to pay for their instructor to fly out and give seminars. She's worked very very hard and is making progress. Of course the seminars have helped.
I will agree, there is NO way you will learn martial arts from scratch without some form of professional feedback. Unless you're a freak, or you've had prior instruction and are learning a related system. Can I see someone who has mastered Chen style learning Yang by video? Yes I can. And if they were taught properly originally, they'll probably do it better than most of the Yang guys out there. (Since the average is so low, not dissing those people who really have mastered it, but Yang is normally the 'Health Tai Chi')
But for the general Average Joe with no experience learning from a video? Get somebody to teach you, even by distance and pay to go to seminars every so often.
Do they have that channel in NYC? I'm always up for good entertainment
But I think everyone will agree that they gain more from a live concert than a recorded session.... Real people is for living in the now. TV is for living a dream.
