Can i do multiple martial arts at the same time???? Please help

Flying Crane

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I would not have though any system revolved around one single option although fundamentals are the key. But in gradings I examine we do look for that one technique that can be performed successfully for Shodan. Nidan asks for more, Sandan require some class and actual techniques. It's up to the instructor to pile on different attacks that we have to deal with in daily practice. With that, hard work and practice should make a grading like walk in the park.
Fair enough, and what I was really trying to do was point out the implications of your earlier statements, if followed to their conclusion. Perhaps that wasnt what you meant, but what you said leads to that conclusion.
One of the things that actually put me off graded arts was the constant question, "What grade are you taking next". It was expected of you to grade. Then again the president of an association did ask me why I did not grade anymore. He said, "Maybe you don't want to but your students will be pleased and proud if you grade up"
Again fair enough but in my example, my conclusion came down to: I dont want to learn this new material, it does not help my growth and in fact will likely hinder it, and I cannot justify that. Needless to say, I no longer practice that method.

this was simply my experience in one particular art and I dont claim that it is consistent with what others experience, particularly in other systems. But it is one example that undermines the notion that some kind of higher instruction is given at higher Dan ranks. Perhaps in some cases, but most definitely not all.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Isn't that cause and effect? That is right sometimes? Through dumb luck? What did I miss? (genuine question, because I read what you say above, and it's just saying the same thing differently.)
I think its about observable cause (searing, relaxed muscles) and HOW it creates the effect (tastiness, power). The explanation for how x begets y is what is often off in folk wisdom, even when its based on good observational evidence.
 

Steve

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I think its about observable cause (searing, relaxed muscles) and HOW it creates the effect (tastiness, power). The explanation for how x begets y is what is often off in folk wisdom, even when its based on good observational evidence.
Ugh. Okay. I never thought I'd get tired of talking about food. But here's the thing, Gerry., searing meat before cooking it isn't always better. Sometimes, it's not as good. And if you don't challenge folk wisdom, you would never know it. Like @lklawson isn't curious about whether he could cook his steak better. He was, I would guess, shown how to cook a steak at some point, and has done it that way for 20 years. He was told one way was better, and he experienced some success, and so good enough for him. And in this thread, he ignorantly asserted that this is "THE BEST" (his all caps, not mine) way to do it. And yet... it isn't.

Now, take all of that, including @lklawson's stubborn adherence to the folk wisdom he has adopted, and apply that to martial arts. Then take all of that and apply it to presumptions folks have about whether people can learn two things at the same time. There is the point.
 

isshinryuronin

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undermines the notion that some kind of higher instruction is given at higher Dan ranks. Perhaps in some cases, but most definitely not all.
Naturally this depends on the system and school. As has been said, most all of a style's techniques are likely learned by shodan. But by no means does this imply there is no more to learn. Several considerations regarding "higher" instruction:

Curriculum - In my style's curriculum, weapon skills are generally required for 2nd, 3rd/4th degree. (bo, sai, tonfa). Other schools may have nunchaku, knife or sticks to teach, or defense against weapons. Perhaps multi-attacker defense. Also, advanced bunkai for kata may be part of post-shodan instruction and extend into the middle Dan ranks. What about basic medical training to address common injuries one may suffer from training or combat? Such knowledge was certainly a part of advanced kung fu and karate training in the past but is very rare nowadays.


Proficiency - While most all techniques have been learned to a competent degree (hopefully) by 1st degree, there is still a lot of room for improvement, especially in executing techniques more fluidly, naturally, and more effortlessly. These qualities take more time to develop than just gross mechanical skills and so are things that can be considered for post-shodan ranks.

Self-study - Commitment and dedication should be exhibited by those continuing thru the dan ranks, and this can be exhibited by personal investigations into MA history, bunkai and philosophy so as to get a deeper understanding of their art. Some of the attributes mentioned in "Proficiency" most likely can be achieved only with one's personal exploration of the techniques, and their own body. After a certain level we can be our own teachers.

By the above examples, one can see there is plenty of material for a shodan to look forward to and work on for decades after getting a black belt. And, providing one has diligently worked all this time, once one gets to 7th, 8th or 9th degrees in their later years, perhaps a more abstract and personal transformation is realized.
 

lklawson

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Maybe that's some kind of consensus bandied about in the West and has got a bit twisted For sure when you get Shodan you realize you only have one foot on the ladder. A black belt or "shodan" is a qualified beginner is what all Japanese would say. Be it Budo, shodo, shogi, go etc. After practice from elementary school to junior high on an almost daily basis they aspire to Shodan maybe Nidan entering high school and then get sandan. They will graduate uni with Yondan which is enough to get a job pertaining to their skills. The biggest drop out rate is Rokudan. "You still have lot to learn" is always what Japanese tell themselves and others. They even write it on Menkyo Kaiden (full license certification) So the system has been changed and bastardized. It might be worth while taking note of the fact that some Japanese Budo associations have removed 9th and 10dan. After all who grades these people to this rank anyway? The ninth graded the tenth! So regardless of all these ranks we practice and practice some more until what we do comes as an automatic response to a given situation. Having to think what you are doing hinders the process. If you learn something new and have not got the hang of it? The automated reaction is to do what you already know imprinted in brain and body. Herein lies the problem of doing two arts.
The older I get, the more systems I see, sample, and train, the more I come to realize that "fighting is fighting." While every system seems to have its own unique flavor, when you drill down to the base there are certain universal truths which function. There are certain fundamentals common to boxing, karate, fencing, silat, krabi krabong, destreza, bagua, etc. Timing, footwork, distance, etc., all start to look similar when you know what to look for. There are only so many methods of power generation. There are only so many tactics and strategies for individual fighting. You know that old saw that ends with '...a punch is just a punch'? ...yeah, that.

You just have to find the subtleties.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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lklawson

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Ugh. Okay. I never thought I'd get tired of talking about food. But here's the thing, Gerry., searing meat before cooking it isn't always better. Sometimes, it's not as good. And if you don't challenge folk wisdom, you would never know it. Like @lklawson isn't curious about whether he could cook his steak better. He was, I would guess, shown how to cook a steak at some point, and has done it that way for 20 years. He was told one way was better, and he experienced some success, and so good enough for him. And in this thread, he ignorantly asserted that this is "THE BEST" (his all caps, not mine) way to do it. And yet... it isn't.
Nope. I actually read a bunch and experimented with several different methods until I found what I liked. And what I like best is a marinade and then, as I already told you, just chuck it on the grill. I like adding wet hardwood chips to smoke it a bit too.

I'm not too bothered about how you prefer to cook your steaks. If you like it, then you like it.


Now, take all of that, including @lklawson's stubborn adherence to the folk wisdom he has adopted, and apply that to martial arts. Then take all of that and apply it to presumptions folks have about whether people can learn two things at the same time. There is the point.
Do you ever get tired of just assuming stuff? Is it a stubborn insistence that you believe you know what I think even after I've already wrote something in direct contradiction? Or maybe you just weren't paying attention?

Even beyond the "cook a steak" thing, I've told you multiple (1) times (2) now (3), that a lot of things folks believed was the reason why things worked actually weren't, but the important part at the end of they day is the result. So when you say silly things like "stubborn adherence to the folk wisdom he has adopted" it tells everyone that either you weren't paying attention or you have an ax to grind.

So, no, "chi" doesn't toughen your hands, little demons don't make popcorn, and searing doesn't seal in juices. But you still get toughened hands, fluffy popcorn, and tasty steaks if you do these things. The "old timers" just made their best guess about why something worked and were often wrong. But it still worked.

Am I going to have to tell you the same thing yet again?
 
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Hyoho

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The older I get, the more systems I see, sample, and train, the more I come to realize that "fighting is fighting." While every system seems to have its own unique flavor, when you drill down to the base there are certain universal truths which function. There are certain fundamentals common to boxing, karate, fencing, silat, krabi krabong, destreza, bagua, etc. Timing, footwork, distance, etc., all start to look similar when you know what to look for. There are only so many methods of power generation. There are only so many tactics and strategies for individual fighting. You know that old saw that ends with '...a punch is just a punch'? ...yeah, that.

You just have to find the subtleties.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I guess the main thing that has allowed me to do more than one to a high degree is the fighting spirit common to all. And the all out effort I know that I will have to muster up to separate what I am going rather than mix it. My Sensei/Soke have always been very intolerant. They show you something and you have but a couple of attempts to get it right. One Soke did ask me once about why I always managed to get things right. I told him, 'Because I go home every day and work on it some more".
 

Gerry Seymour

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Ugh. Okay. I never thought I'd get tired of talking about food. But here's the thing, Gerry., searing meat before cooking it isn't always better. Sometimes, it's not as good. And if you don't challenge folk wisdom, you would never know it. Like @lklawson isn't curious about whether he could cook his steak better. He was, I would guess, shown how to cook a steak at some point, and has done it that way for 20 years. He was told one way was better, and he experienced some success, and so good enough for him. And in this thread, he ignorantly asserted that this is "THE BEST" (his all caps, not mine) way to do it. And yet... it isn't.

Now, take all of that, including @lklawson's stubborn adherence to the folk wisdom he has adopted, and apply that to martial arts. Then take all of that and apply it to presumptions folks have about whether people can learn two things at the same time. There is the point.
Sometimes, for what we want from a situation, works is good enough for our needs/wants. There are things I can (and know how to) do better when cooking, but dont find the extra effort worth the result.

I dont think the discussion around folk wisdom has been at all about the original topic of the thread, but more about the process that can produce incorrect understanding but correct outcomes. Of course, that doesnt begin to describe all of folk wisdom - plenty of it is, as you suggested, misattributed causality.
 

Steve

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Nope. I actually read a bunch and experimented with several different methods until I found what I liked. And what I like best is a marinade and then, as I already told you, just chuck it on the grill. I like adding wet hardwood chips to smoke it a bit too.
All of this is fine. As I have said before, youve said a lot of things. For example, you said this:
20 years ago I was just chucking my steaks on a grill, same as now, and I never gave a **** how you or anyone else cooked yours as long as you were happy with the results. Same as now.
This doesnt even imply curiosity. Those read as contradictory to me.
Exactly the opposite. People would see a result, then they'd try to figure out why that result was achieved by the process they used. Sometimes they'd be wrong about the why. But the result was still the same.
And sometimes as with the analogy I used about searing steaks, they were wrong and that led a lot of people to not even consider other, better ways to do things for 150 years.

Had you not said, earlier in the thread, that searing steak is the best way to do it, everything else youve said would make more sense. But
Sometimes, for what we want from a situation, works is good enough for our needs/wants. There are things I can (and know how to) do better when cooking, but dont find the extra effort worth the result.

I dont think the discussion around folk wisdom has been at all about the original topic of the thread, but more about the process that can produce incorrect understanding but correct outcomes. Of course, that doesnt begin to describe all of folk wisdom - plenty of it is, as you suggested, misattributed causality.
it all started because conventional wisdom says its harder to learn two things at once than one at a time. Which, like dealing in juices etc and blah blah.
 

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