Can i do multiple martial arts at the same time???? Please help

[Gyakuto]

Do you really think so? A black belt is a qualified beginner. I was 6th Dan Kendo, 5th Dan Iaido before I moved on to more Kenjutsu. The kendo bled into it. Battojutsu was never a problem with similar fundamentals.

Yes I’m with you Hyoho, ‘black belt’ is a pretty low grade if the suggestion is that it constitutes ‘proficiency’. After all, it’s about, what, 4-6 years of practise. Would you be proficient on piano or guitar in 4-6 years?

 

[Steve]

Yes I’m with you Hyoho, ‘black belt’ is a pretty low grade if the suggestion is that it constitutes ‘proficiency’. After all, it’s about, what, 4-6 years of practise. Would you be proficient on piano or guitar in 4-6 years?

Heck yeah. Presuming you are consistently playing over 4 to 6 years, you would be pretty darned good. Certainly competent.

 

[Gyakuto]

Heck yeah. Presuming you are consistently playing over 4 to 6 years, you would be pretty darned good. Certainly competent.

Hmmm….maybe. So black belt is a good degree of proficiency?

 

[Gyakuto]

My other dojo….

 

[Tony Dismukes]

After all, it’s about, what, 4-6 years of practise. Would you be proficient on piano or guitar in 4-6 years?

Well, I wasn't particularly proficient at guitar after 4-6 years of practice. Then again, I wasn't putting in that much daily practice, the practice I did put in wasn't focused or organized or high-quality, I didn't have consistent good instruction, and I was starting out in the bottom 5% of the population for natural talent.

Then again, I've seen other people who were solid professional players after 6 years of practice. Most of them probably started out with more natural talent, but the end result probably had more to do with the quantity and quality of their practice. The oft-quoted 10,000 hours road to mastery is a flawed overgeneralization (with many of the caveats from the original research typically omitted), but there's an element of truth to it. Someone who practices 5 hours per day consistently will reach that benchmark in 6 years. (And of course "proficiency" is a much lower bar than "world-class mastery.")

Taking it back to whatever a "black belt" might mean, it took me 15 years to earn my black belt in BJJ. That probably involved about 5000 hours of training time on the mats. I've known friends who earned their BJJ black belt in a much shorter time but who deserved the rank at least as much as I did. There was usually an element of talent involved, but I attribute it mostly to them training more consistently each week and at a higher intensity.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Do you really think so? A black belt is a qualified beginner. I was 6th Dan Kendo, 5th Dan Iaido before I moved on to more Kenjutsu. The kendo bled into it. Battojutsu was never a problem with similar fundamentals.

The whole "black belt is really a beginner" thing is something black belts tell each other so that once they get one, they want to keep going. That's why it's so arbitrary (last I checked some arts have 15-20 Dan levels, well suited for those with no other hobbies).

In reality, everyone is always learning new things about themselves and others, and nobody in their right mind should dismiss a black belt as only marginally proficient. BJJ black belts are considered high level grapplers and I know a couple who would laugh if told they've only "mastered the basics". Sure, if basic meant lethal grappling skills.

 

[lklawson]

Well, I wasn't particularly proficient at guitar after 4-6 years of practice. Then again, I wasn't putting in that much daily practice, the practice I did put in wasn't focused or organized or high-quality, I didn't have consistent good instruction, and I was starting out in the bottom 5% of the population for natural talent.

Then again, I've seen other people who were solid professional players after 6 years of practice. Most of them probably started out with more natural talent, but the end result probably had more to do with the quantity and quality of their practice. The oft-quoted 10,000 hours road to mastery is a flawed overgeneralization (with many of the caveats from the original research typically omitted), but there's an element of truth to it. Someone who practices 5 hours per day consistently will reach that benchmark in 6 years. (And of course "proficiency" is a much lower bar than "world-class mastery.")

Taking it back to whatever a "black belt" might mean, it took me 15 years to earn my black belt in BJJ. That probably involved about 5000 hours of training time on the mats. I've known friends who earned their BJJ black belt in a much shorter time but who deserved the rank at least as much as I did. There was usually an element of talent involved, but I attribute it mostly to them training more consistently each week and at a higher intensity.

Not too long ago, I listened to an interview with a gent who wanted to be a pro guitar player. He practiced at least 8 hours a day, every day. He ended up with a long term, persistent, injury to his tendons and destroyed any chance at a career. Now he makes Vaults and safes for the firearms industry and leaves his guitar as a periodic hobby.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

View attachment 28293
My other dojo….

Very impressive. Someone with your obvious interest, I bet after 4 or 6 years, you were really good.

 

[Oily Dragon]

View attachment 28292
Hmmm….maybe. So black belt is a good degree of proficiency?

Horrifying.

Seriously though, black belts don't really measure anything other than a teacher figured you'd earned it.

There's no way to measure or mark the nuances involved. Some black belts are probably overall great at their art, others are probably specialists who did just enough to pass on their weaker skills.

Then you've got the myriad of arts that slice up black belt more or less to make a profit.

And then you've got the "honorary" black belts that were handed out freely (for association) purposes), sure enough those are often added to the pile to build rep (any person with more than a handful of black belts probably qualifies).

Down here at the bottom you have the arts that don't even use belts, and keep it really simple (student, disciple, assistance instructor, etc). In those places you could spend a decade in any of those roles, have no belt to show for it, but still be a very competent and competitive fighter.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Seattle. Closest brush with fame (well, almost fame) I had was I was a dishwasher in a cafe with a guy named Chad Channing, who was the drummer at the time for Nirvana. Being in that area during the 80s was outstanding for local music.

Mudhoney!

 

[Steve]

Mudhoney!

Green River, when I was listening to them. A lot happened after I joined the military. I left when Nirvana was just about to release their first single (missed Bleach entirely). Pearl Jam didn't exist yet (that I knew of) and Soundgarden hadn't made it big yet. I was in Saudi Arabia when they all just took off.

Other local bands I remember are the Fastbacks, Green Pajamas, Young Fresh Fellows... there was an AM station (1590 KJET) that sponsored free concerts at the Mural Amphitheater in the Seattle Center each week during the summers. They were great. Free, local music. Been a long time, but if I remember right, they would have two bands each week, who would play 1 hour sets.

Speaking of Reggae, there was a Portland band called the Crazy 8s that is the first Ska band I can remember ever hearing. Good stuff. Haven't thought about these guys in years:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Not too long ago, I listened to an interview with a gent who wanted to be a pro guitar player. He practiced at least 8 hours a day, every day. He ended up with a long term, persistent, injury to his tendons and destroyed any chance at a career. Now he makes Vaults and safes for the firearms industry and leaves his guitar as a periodic hobby.

This is part of why quality of practice is as important as quantity.

On the one hand you have people like me when I started learning guitar - messing around with no clear focus or plan or progression, getting minimal benefit from practice time.

On the other end of the spectrum you have people who push their physical limits without regard for the consequences. Being the kind of musician who practices 6 - 8 hours per day is like being a professional athlete who primarily uses the smallest, most delicate muscles and tendons. If you don't structure your workout intelligently, you'll end up with overuse injuries like the gentleman you interviewed. If he had more awareness of what could happen, there are a lot of things he could have done differently.

• Warming up thoroughly before practice
• Proper cooldowns, pre-hab exercises, massages, proper nutrition, etc
• Focusing on proper ergonomic technique
• Being aware of the early signs of overuse injuries so as to back off on intensity and/or quantity of physical practice
• Devoting practice time as needed to non-physical aspects of practice (ear training, music theory, reading music, transcribing, recording techniques, etc). This could be especially useful during periods when the body needs more recovery time.
• Seeking specialist medical advice and intervention before he reached the point of permanent injury

Then again, even if he did some of those things he still might have had problems. As I mentioned above, professional musicians at that level are essentially professional athletes of the small muscles. Professional athletes push themselves to their physical limits and sometimes have career ending injuries.

 

[Steve]

Every year, gobs of kids in the 6th grade pick up an instrument for the first time in their lives. And boy, let me tell you from personal experience... they suck. After a year, you can tell who practiced 30 minutes a day and who didn't. After 2 years, they are sounding pretty good as a group, and individually, it's remarkable how much progress they've made. At three years, they're starting in high school, in the orchestra or marching band, or if they're lucky, at a school with a solid jazz program, and by the end of that year, they are darned good.

My alma mater, Garfield HS, has a badass jazz program. They were amazing when I was there in the 80s, and are still amazing. Very few of those kids over the decades have more than 6 years of experience, and I'd wager most have less than 4. To be sure, they had Clarence Acox, who is like the Rickson Gracie of high school jazz instruction. Mr. Acox retired recently, and was an institution in Seattle Jazz for over 40 years.

But even mediocre high school bands sound pretty dang good, and you know most of them have 4 to 6 years of practice.

Wow... blast from the past. These guys were in my class. Same program as above, but 40 years earlier. I know most of them by name:

 

[lklawson]

This is part of why quality of practice is as important as quantity.

On the one hand you have people like me when I started learning guitar - messing around with no clear focus or plan or progression, getting minimal benefit from practice time.

On the other end of the spectrum you have people who push their physical limits without regard for the consequences. Being the kind of musician who practices 6 - 8 hours per day is like being a professional athlete who primarily uses the smallest, most delicate muscles and tendons. If you don't structure your workout intelligently, you'll end up with overuse injuries like the gentleman you interviewed. If he had more awareness of what could happen, there are a lot of things he could have done differently.

• Warming up thoroughly before practice
• Proper cooldowns, pre-hab exercises, massages, proper nutrition, etc
• Focusing on proper ergonomic technique
• Being aware of the early signs of overuse injuries so as to back off on intensity and/or quantity of physical practice
• Devoting practice time as needed to non-physical aspects of practice (ear training, music theory, reading music, transcribing, recording techniques, etc). This could be especially useful during periods when the body needs more recovery time.
• Seeking specialist medical advice and intervention before he reached the point of permanent injury

Then again, even if he did some of those things he still might have had problems. As I mentioned above, professional musicians at that level are essentially professional athletes of the small muscles. Professional athletes push themselves to their physical limits and sometimes have career ending injuries.

All of this makes perfect sense.

I assume that an interested party could find some sort of "Trainer" which would be more than just a music shop teacher. But such a specialized "Coach" would probably be hard to find and I guess probably only in certain geographic locations. Where-ever the professional music hotbeds are, I guess.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gyakuto]

Very impressive. Someone with your obvious interest, I bet after 4 or 6 years, you were really good.

If only Steve. When I played, my neighbours used to smash my windows. I convinced myself it was to hear me a little better!

 

[Hyoho]

The whole "black belt is really a beginner" thing is something black belts tell each other so that once they get one, they want to keep going. That's why it's so arbitrary (last I checked some arts have 15-20 Dan levels, well suited for those with no other hobbies).

In reality, everyone is always learning new things about themselves and others, and nobody in their right mind should dismiss a black belt as only marginally proficient. BJJ black belts are considered high level grapplers and I know a couple who would laugh if told they've only "mastered the basics". Sure, if basic meant lethal grappling skills.

Maybe that's some kind of consensus bandied about in the West and has got a bit twisted For sure when you get Shodan you realize you only have one foot on the ladder. A black belt or "shodan" is a qualified beginner is what all Japanese would say. Be it Budo, shodo, shogi, go etc. After practice from elementary school to junior high on an almost daily basis they aspire to Shodan maybe Nidan entering high school and then get sandan. They will graduate uni with Yondan which is enough to get a job pertaining to their skills. The biggest drop out rate is Rokudan. "You still have lot to learn" is always what Japanese tell themselves and others. They even write it on Menkyo Kaiden (full license certification) So the system has been changed and bastardized. It might be worth while taking note of the fact that some Japanese Budo associations have removed 9th and 10dan. After all who grades these people to this rank anyway? The ninth graded the tenth! So regardless of all these ranks we practice and practice some more until what we do comes as an automatic response to a given situation. Having to think what you are doing hinders the process. If you learn something new and have not got the hang of it? The automated reaction is to do what you already know imprinted in brain and body. Herein lies the problem of doing two arts.

 

[Flying Crane]

Maybe that's some kind of consensus bandied about in the West and has got a bit twisted For sure when you get Shodan you realize you only have one foot on the ladder. A black belt or "shodan" is a qualified beginner is what all Japanese would say. Be it Budo, shodo, shogi, go etc. After practice from elementary school to junior high on an almost daily basis they aspire to Shodan maybe Nidan entering high school and then get sandan. They will graduate uni with Yondan which is enough to get a job pertaining to their skills. The biggest drop out rate is Rokudan. "You still have lot to learn" is always what Japanese tell themselves and others. They even write it on Menkyo Kaiden (full license certification) So the system has been changed and bastardized. It might be worth while taking note of the fact that some Japanese Budo associations have removed 9th and 10dan. After all who grades these people to this rank anyway? The ninth graded the tenth!

I think it depends. Perhaps within Japanese systems this holds true, or is a notion that is widely accepted. Outside of certain culturally-based norms, I do not believe this is automatically accepted. From my own personal perspective, I trained in a system (not Japanese or Okinawan, but with a claim on Japanese roots) in which I earned Shodan. As I continued to train toward Nidan, it became clear to me that the additional material was superfluous and actually a hinderance to developing higher skill. It was cumbersome and mostly spread your efforts too thin to give any of it adequate focus and attention. In that example, my opinion is that greater skill would have been possible by reducing the amount of material in the curriculum, giving less material greater attention, which could arguably reduce the number of rank levels that made sense to keep. In this case, if you reached Shodan, you had gained what skill and knowledge that the system had to offer. The rest of the curriculum was simply more, not representative of greater depth of knowledge or higher skill.

My caveat is simply that greater skill comes from additional practice, not from piling on more material. In my example, I concluded that rank beyond Shodan really was pointless.

I realize my example is just one and may not represent the reality found in other systems. One’s mileage may vary.

So regardless of all these ranks we practice and practice some more until what we do comes as an automatic response to a given situation. Having to think what you are doing hinders the process. If you learn something new and have not got the hang of it? The automated reaction is to do what you already know imprinted in brain and body. Herein lies the problem of doing two arts.

I am in agreement in that I believe for most people, trying to learn more than one system is probably problematic. But I don’t agree with your comments here. What this implies is that one can have only a single option for any given situation (for example, being attacked with a punch of a certain type and from a certain direction) that can become an automatic response, and having more than one option becomes overwhelming and impossible to function. I do not agree with that. Any single functional system ought to have multiple options for dealing with an attack. Multiple systems would likely result in more options, and eventually there may be too many with which to keep sharp. But having additional options from another system in and of itself isn’t a problem.

In my opinion, the problem lies in having a consistent methodology in things like power generation. When you try to keep separate methodologies from different systems for delivering the same technique, that is where they body gets confused. That is where trying to train multiple systems can be a problem.

 

[Hyoho]

My caveat is simply that greater skill comes from additional practice, not from piling on more material. In my example, I concluded that rank beyond Shodan really was pointless.

I realize my example is just one and may not represent the reality found in other systems. One’s mileage may vary.

I am in agreement in that I believe for most people, trying to learn more than one system is probably problematic. But I don’t agree with your comments here. What this implies is that one can have only a single option for any given situation (for example, being attacked with a punch of a certain type and from a certain direction) that can become an automatic response, and having more than one option becomes overwhelming and impossible to function. I do not agree with that. Any single functional system ought to have multiple options for dealing with an attack. Multiple systems would likely result in more options, and eventually there may be too many with which to keep sharp. But having additional options from another system in and of itself isn’t a problem.

In my opinion, the problem lies in having a consistent methodology in things like power generation. When you try to keep separate methodologies from different systems for delivering the same technique, that is where they body gets confused. That is where trying to train multiple systems can be a problem.

I would not have though any system revolved around one single option although fundamentals are the key. But in gradings I examine we do look for that one technique that can be performed successfully for Shodan. Nidan asks for more, Sandan require some class and actual techniques. It's up to the instructor to pile on different attacks that we have to deal with in daily practice. With that, hard work and practice should make a grading like walk in the park.

One of the things that actually put me off graded arts was the constant question, "What grade are you taking next". It was expected of you to grade. Then again the president of an association did ask me why I did not grade anymore. He said, "Maybe you don't want to but your students will be pleased and proud if you grade up"

 

[Flying Crane]

Sorry, were you commenting on what I said? Did your comments get deleted somehow?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Karate is any punching and kicking art. When I went through a martial art, I always finished it up to black belt and then I approached another art. You should devote your time and effort to your art untill you reach black belt, and after that, then see about taking another martial art. One should devote learning all they want to learn from one art before going to another.
I can only tell you what I did and it worked out fine. I wound up teaching Tracy Kenpo at their studio for a while before I broke away and began learning Ed Parker Kenpo. I preferred Ed Parker techniques. But you should make your own choice and if it doesn't work out, go back to where you were.
Hope this helped.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA

That’s too many shoulds for a subjective matter. There are a lot of things to consider, and some folks do quite well starting multiple arts at the same time.