Can hard work make up for lack of talent?

Tez3

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I think that a pretty fair comparison, I wont buy tuna because of the number of dolphins caught in the tuna nets, I wouldn't club seals and I wouldn't be even associated with an organisation set up with the only intention of killing people.

people of course buy into the lie it's about defending their country , but then dont seem to question why they are bouncing round a desert thousands of miles from home


Well, there's always line caught tuna. As usual you just say the first thing you can think of that you think will annoy people and try to justify it afterwards with ridiculous arguments. It's basic troll behaviour. Happens on everything thread you go on, it's why you are here.
 

DocWard

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what you want proof they have a selection tion process, to weed out people who arnt aggressive enough or that they fail people in training who dont display a disregard for human life. just say I'm sorry I'm not shooting this man shaped target asI have no intention of ever killing anybody and your out, or you get a job in the stores

I've decided not to wait for your response. I have things to do, and I don't want to leave this unsaid. Your comment about the military is ignorant and wholly offensive.

I served, all told, twenty three years in the military. The fast majority of that time was, as I have mentioned elsewhere, as a medic. On my last deployment, while my MOS, or my official job, was as a medic, I served as an assistant squad leader in an Area Reaction Force. I believe I mentioned that as well. I accepted the fact from day one that I might need to take human life, and that I was signing a blank check for my own. I also accepted the fact that the purpose of the military is the forceful projection of power via the ability to engage in combat operations when diplomacy fails. Whether defensively or offensively, the military fights and attempts to ruin the enemy's will to fight. Yes, that involves killing them. It does not mean wholesale slaughter and indiscriminate killing, though.

To this day I have friends that are closer to me than family by blood because of our shared experiences and our trust in one another. I have also lost friends in combat, whom I think of often with sadness. If we break down the definition of empathy to its most basic form, "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another," I don't believe it is possible to serve in the military without such ability. If one can't empathize with those one is serving with, one will not be able to trust, nor gain the trust of those most important to survival. This is also true of the populace the military deals with and often attempts to protect.

As an NCO, I will say It is certainly almost impossible to be a good leader without empathy. As a leader, if I had not been able to empathize, I couldn't have looked out for the best interest of those soldiers serving under me, and worked to keep them as safe as circumstances dictated, and fought for their interests when command became disinterested, among other things.

Since it is painfully, offensively obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about, allow me to elaborate. One of my friends who died in Afghanistan was an NCO in the military, yet an attorney in civilian life, as I am. He wasn't just any attorney, though. He served with the Public Defender's office, providing services to the indigent, when he had the ability to earn far more money, far more easily elsewhere. Many of my friends from the military are now in the medical field, paramedics, nurses and physician's assistants, trying to make the lives of others better, and indeed, keep them alive. They deal with the PTSD and other issues that people who are highly empathetic deal with.

As for myself, I served for over a decade at our prosecutor's office seeking to protect abused and neglected children. Dealing with sleepless nights before trials, my worry that I might miss something and lose, and a child be put into danger because of it keeping me awake. I have had tears in my eyes as I have asked a judge to issue a Do Not Rescucitate Order for a child who had been so violently shaken by a family member that his brain was swelling and his brain stem was being forced down into his spinal column, and the medical personnel all believed it was the right thing to do. HOW DARE YOU suggest I, or any one of the countless soldiers I have been proud to serve with and call brothers and sisters are not caring, empathetic individuals. To do so shows your ignorance, and so much more.

Of course, I can't help but think of the fact that you are one of the more glibly violence advocates on this forum. I could only shake my head in disbelief when I read your comment that "[and] if you made a kid of mine stand with their nose against the wall, I'd punch your lights out' on another thread.

If this causes this thread to be locked, my apologies to the original posters and all those who were benefitting from it, as well as moderators and admins. I believe this needed to be said. This person is simply loathsome.
 

DocWard

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when I was a lad, there was a bit of high unemployment, and the army used it as an opportunity to exploit poor iut of work lads, by advertising, join the army learn a trade, see the world etc with out mentioning killing or getting killed, to be fair there was t much going on in terms of war, I of course had a trade, so no reason to inconvenience myself just to escape poverty.

Of course. I am not impressed.
 

jobo

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Your grasp of history is as good as your spelling I see.
its simplistic, but a pretty fair summary, they were racing the Russians to Berlin, and in their haist gave away many thousands of lives , that could easily have been preserved
 

jobo

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I've decided not to wait for your response. I have things to do, and I don't want to leave this unsaid. Your comment about the military is ignorant and wholly offensive.

I served, all told, twenty three years in the military. The fast majority of that time was, as I have mentioned elsewhere, as a medic. On my last deployment, while my MOS, or my official job, was as a medic, I served as an assistant squad leader in an Area Reaction Force. I believe I mentioned that as well. I accepted the fact from day one that I might need to take human life, and that I was signing a blank check for my own. I also accepted the fact that the purpose of the military is the forceful projection of power via the ability to engage in combat operations when diplomacy fails. Whether defensively or offensively, the military fights and attempts to ruin the enemy's will to fight. Yes, that involves killing them. It does not mean wholesale slaughter and indiscriminate killing, though.

To this day I have friends that are closer to me than family by blood because of our shared experiences and our trust in one another. I have also lost friends in combat, whom I think of often with sadness. If we break down the definition of empathy to its most basic form, "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another," I don't believe it is possible to serve in the military without such ability. If one can't empathize with those one is serving with, one will not be able to trust, nor gain the trust of those most important to survival. This is also true of the populace the military deals with and often attempts to protect.

As an NCO, I will say It is certainly almost impossible to be a good leader without empathy. As a leader, if I had not been able to empathize, I couldn't have looked out for the best interest of those soldiers serving under me, and worked to keep them as safe as circumstances dictated, and fought for their interests when command became disinterested, among other things.

Since it is painfully, offensively obvious that you have no clue what you are talking about, allow me to elaborate. One of my friends who died in Afghanistan was an NCO in the military, yet an attorney in civilian life, as I am. He wasn't just any attorney, though. He served with the Public Defender's office, providing services to the indigent, when he had the ability to earn far more money, far more easily elsewhere. Many of my friends from the military are now in the medical field, paramedics, nurses and physician's assistants, trying to make the lives of others better, and indeed, keep them alive. They deal with the PTSD and other issues that people who are highly empathetic deal with.

As for myself, I served for over a decade at our prosecutor's office seeking to protect abused and neglected children. Dealing with sleepless nights before trials, my worry that I might miss something and lose, and a child be put into danger because of it keeping me awake. I have had tears in my eyes as I have asked a judge to issue a Do Not Rescucitate Order for a child who had been so violently shaken by a family member that his brain was swelling and his brain stem was being forced down into his spinal column, and the medical personnel all believed it was the right thing to do. HOW DARE YOU suggest I, or any one of the countless soldiers I have been proud to serve with and call brothers and sisters are not caring, empathetic individuals. To do so shows your ignorance, and so much more.

Of course, I can't help but think of the fact that you are one of the more glibly violence advocates on this forum. I could only shake my head in disbelief when I read your comment that "[and] if you made a kid of mine stand with their nose against the wall, I'd punch your lights out' on another thread.

If this causes this thread to be locked, my apologies to the original posters and all those who were benefitting from it, as well as moderators and admins. I believe this needed to be said. This person is simply loathsome.
you volunteered to take part in the subjugation of various sovereign sates that lead to millions of deaths, but you think I'm loathsome, thats a really bizarre level of delusion
 

DocWard

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you volunteered to take part in the subjugation of various sovereign sates that lead to millions of deaths, but you think I'm loathsome, thats a really bizarre level of delusion

If you wish to believe so, I will make no attempt to dissuade you, because you clearly aren't worth the effort. Suffice it to say, that when I leave this realm of existence, I will do so with the knowledge that my efforts, in the military, in professional and in private life, have served to help others, my country, my community, and individuals both familiar and unknown to me. I don't know anything about you other than the facade you present here, but if it is representative, I sincerely doubt you will be able to say the same.
 

jobo

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If you wish to believe so, I will make no attempt to dissuade you, because you clearly aren't worth the effort. Suffice it to say, that when I leave this realm of existence, I will do so with the knowledge that my efforts, in the military, in professional and in private life, have served to help others, my country, my community, and individuals both familiar and unknown to me. I don't know anything about you other than the facade you present here, but if it is representative, I sincerely doubt you will be able to say the same.
I bet you think youl go to heaven as well
that's a serious lot if self justification right there, I bet you think your military career made the world a safer more just place.
 
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Sarah Mc

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Something I haven't seen anyone talking about on the thread (though I could have missed it) is basic physical conditioning. Especially if you were fairly sedentary before you started training, 8 months isn't very long to both develop things like strength and flexibility from a martial arts program. If you were to focus some attention on areas like this where you might have some weaknesses you could see fairly dramatic improvement in your performance. Training in your art(s) will improve these things but frequently not as quickly nor anywhere near as efficiently as a specialized routine.

Taking flexibility as an example - Back in my 20's I studied Hapkido for about 5 years. I am not naturally flexible, in fact I'm naturally inflexible, especially my legs and hips. When I started I progressed more quickly than the average student when it came to punching and grappling techniques but any kick higher than my opponents' knee was absolute garbage and I felt like I just couldn't learn them. It wasn't a problem with my brain or innate ability but it sure felt like it. It wasn't until I made a dedicated effort outside of class to really do some research and follow a dedicated flexibility program that I started to make any progress in that area. I'm sure if I'd just kept with the class I'd have eventually developed the flexibility to do the kicks properly but it would have taken far longer because I was so much less flexible than the average student that what we did for class wasn't enough for me. Strength can also be a limiting factor in the same way. If your legs are weaker than they need to be it makes it harder to be coordinated when you kick, etc. and a good strength training program will make you stronger much faster than a martial arts class.

Absolutely. This makes so much sense.
 

DocWard

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I bet you think youl go to heaven as well

As is usual for you, you are in error. No surprise there.

that's a serious lot if self justification right there,

Self justification? Perhaps, but I know it to be true, and I have mentioned only a brief bit of facts concerning what I have done that lead me to the conclusion. Feel free to attempt to prove otherwise.

I bet you think your military career made the world a safer more just place.

You're zero-for-two on the betting. It seems gambling isn't your forte any more than spelling and rational discussion are. I did my best to serve my country, my community, and those soldiers I served with, and to be the best soldier, medic and leader I could be. Whether my efforts, or the efforts of those I served alongside made my country a better place, or the world for that matter, will be up to posterity to decide.
 
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jobo

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As is usual for you, you are in error. No surprise there.



Self justification? Perhaps, but I know it to be true, and I have mentioned only a brief bit of facts concerning what I have done that lead me to the conclusion. Feel free to attempt to prove otherwise.



You're zero-for-two on the betting. It seems gambling isn't your forte any more than spelling and rational discussion are. I did my best to serve my country, my community, and those soldiers I served with, and to be the best soldier, medic and leader I could be. Whether my efforts, or the efforts of those I served alongside made my country a better place, or the world for that matter, will be up to posterity to decide.
I think posterity, well in any other place than the good old US of A has already reach a verdict , and 8m not sure that, that many Americans are totally enamoured with the mess it left behind.

but hell who cares as long as your proud of your contrabution
 

Yokozuna514

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As is usual for you, you are in error. No surprise there.



Self justification? Perhaps, but I know it to be true, and I have mentioned only a brief bit of facts concerning what I have done that lead me to the conclusion. Feel free to attempt to prove otherwise.



You're zero-for-two on the betting. It seems gambling isn't your forte any more than spelling and rational discussion are. I did my best to serve my country, my community, and those soldiers I served with, and to be the best soldier, medic and leader I could be. Whether my efforts, or the efforts of those I served alongside made my country a better place, or the world for that matter, will be up to posterity to decide.
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

― George Carlin
 

DocWard

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I think posterity, well in any other place than the good old US of A has already reach a verdict , and 8m not sure that, that many Americans are totally enamoured with the mess it left behind.

but hell who cares as long as your proud of your contrabution

I find it most curious that you only seek to attack what I would call "the low hanging fruit," that is, those statements you can best attack, or see as weakest. In reality, it show's your inability to engage those more challenging points, and your ability to only engage the weaker ones at a superficial level.

Having said that, "posterity" would mean generations to follow. Once the final dust has settled, then the historians can truly start sorting through the wheat and chaff, and see the end results on the geo-political spectrum, outside the myopic world view of the present. If future generations judge our efforts poorly, then so be it. It may very well be after my passing before we see the full positive and negative repercussions of the actions of the U.S., England, Canada and numerous other nations in the post 9/11/2001conflicts in the Middle East. I certainly will take your opinion for all that I consider it worth on the subject.

As for me, yes, I remain proud of my service and my efforts, and it will take far more than the nearly incoherent attacks and ramblings of a troll who seemingly only exists to denigrate the efforts of others. I said loathsome earlier. Sad and pathetic are also apt.
 

DocWard

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“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

― George Carlin

How right he was and how right you are. It is, sadly a character flaw I have. I deplore misinformation, bullies, and those who attack the efforts of others, whether through ignorance, insolence, or both.
 

jobo

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I find it most curious that you only seek to attack what I would call "the low hanging fruit," that is, those statements you can best attack, or see as weakest. In reality, it show's your inability to engage those more challenging points, and your ability to only engage the weaker ones at a superficial level.

Having said that, "posterity" would mean generations to follow. Once the final dust has settled, then the historians can truly start sorting through the wheat and chaff, and see the end results on the geo-political spectrum, outside the myopic world view of the present. If future generations judge our efforts poorly, then so be it. It may very well be after my passing before we see the full positive and negative repercussions of the actions of the U.S., England, Canada and numerous other nations in the post 9/11/2001conflicts in the Middle East. I certainly will take your opinion for all that I consider it worth on the subject.

As for me, yes, I remain proud of my service and my efforts, and it will take far more than the nearly incoherent attacks and ramblings of a troll who seemingly only exists to denigrate the efforts of others. I said loathsome earlier. Sad and pathetic are also apt.
you clearly dont take well to criticism, just heaping personal abuse doesn't make your position look any better. we are clearly a generation on from your efforts at world peace, and eeer well, the proof it seems is in the pudding of far flung lands still in chaos and racked by conflict. so you haven't really got an " end justifies the means" defence either.

how long do you think it should be left, before posterity judges you and what do you think could possibly happen in the intervening period so that your contribution is viewed as a positive?
 

DocWard

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you clearly dont take well to criticism, just heaping personal abuse doesn't make your position look any better. we are clearly a generation on from your efforts at world peace, and eeer well, the proof it seems is in the pudding of far flung lands still in chaos and racked by conflict. so you haven't really got an " end justifies the means" defence either.

how long do you think it should be left, before posterity judges you and what do you think could possibly happen in the intervening period so that your contribution is viewed as a positive?

I actually handle criticism quite well, particularly if it is positively stated, has a logical basis and is intended to be helpful. I do not react well to personal attacks, demeaning commentary and the insulting statements you make without knowing of which you speak. I believe "bristle" would be the correct term for my reaction.

I make no pretense toward prescience, pardon the alliteration. I also believe we are careening wildly toward a deeply political conversation.
 
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Sarah Mc

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How right he was and how right you are. It is, sadly a character flaw I have. I deplore misinformation, bullies, and those who attack the efforts of others, whether through ignorance, insolence, or both.

I have a lot of thoughts on all of this (since I've, of course, followed this thread) but since understanding can only be established with people who want to learn, I'm in agreement with the quote. Still, your posts are thoughtful & thorough and I thank you for trying, and I particularly would like to thank you for your service.
 

DocWard

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I have a lot of thoughts on all of this (since I've, of course, followed this thread) but since understanding can only be established with people who want to learn, I'm in agreement with the quote. Still, your posts are thoughtful & thorough and I thank you for trying, and I particularly would like to thank you for your service.

Thank you, I'm humbled, and I considered it an honor to be able to.
 

DocWard

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I have a lot of thoughts on all of this (since I've, of course, followed this thread) but since understanding can only be established with people who want to learn, I'm in agreement with the quote. Still, your posts are thoughtful & thorough and I thank you for trying, and I particularly would like to thank you for your service.

Also, since this is your thread, my apologies for my contribution to the direction it has taken. I hope that the answers related to your original question have been helpful.
 
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Sarah Mc

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Also, since this is your thread, my apologies for my contribution to the direction it has taken. I hope that the answers related to your original question have been helpful.

Not a problem. This is important, too. And I have gotten so much out of the original thread - I'm so glad I posted.
 

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